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Post by Silver Jan on May 10, 2012 4:58:48 GMT -5
Crikey, I was all set to get a reaction from Meeko but what happened?
Unvote Meeko
It isn't just a choice between Meeko and Pleo, they could both be Town. I do find Meeko to be more Townie now, especially after his tantrum ;D and his stubbornness.
Vote dizzymrslizzy
First for editing a post, that is a definite no-no in this game. If the post was incorrectly tagged then write a new post with the changes. Yes, I do realise you are new.
Secondly dizzymrslizzy keeps going on about wanting to play only with newbies. This has pinged me since the first time I read it. I feel that she could be thinking that as scum she would have more of a chance to pull the wool over the eyes of new players but that older players are a bit more wily and could catch her out more quickly.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on May 10, 2012 5:01:08 GMT -5
Vote count: Meeko - 7 votes (Inner Stickler, Pleonast, lauriern, amykb, patricia, crys, annetastic) Pleonast - 7 votes (CatInASuit, BillMc, Meeko, cassiepietz, michelehunter, dizzymrslizzy, francescaj) starirain - 4 votes (Mr Special Ed, colby11, Gadarene, septimus) dizzymrslizzy - 3 votes (Suburban Plankton, wombat99, Silver Jan) texcat - 2 votes (guiri, jmj697mn) Guiri - 1 vote (Susan K Murphy) Mr Special Ed - 1 vote (oldred) cassiepietz - 1 vote (kagemoto) Suburban Plankton - 1 vote (Mahaloth) annetastic - 1 vote (allyjayne) michelehunter - 1 vote (Lightfoot)
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Post by Silver Jan on May 10, 2012 5:02:16 GMT -5
And I forgot to bold Unvote Meeko
Vote dizzymrslizzy
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Post by wombat99 on May 10, 2012 7:07:40 GMT -5
And I forgot to bold Unvote Meeko
Vote dizzymrslizzyAnother thing about dizzymrslizzy - in day 0 post #80, she says Yes Sir! I have no freaking clue what I'm doing, and weekends are tough for me to be on,but I'm here! when all she needed to say was "confirmed". I think she's scum and her role PM said something about needing to be on the scum chat board on the weekends, and that's why she mentions the weekends.
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Post by Gadarene on May 10, 2012 7:32:02 GMT -5
So basically no one who's voting Pleonast has bothered to respond to my many detailed points about why it's a really bad idea to do so?
At least present a counter-argument, guys, so I know where you're coming from.
Otherwise, I have to agree with septimus (I think?), who said that there are probably a disproportionate number of Scum on the Pleo wagon. Experienced players, in particular, should really, really know better.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on May 10, 2012 8:29:20 GMT -5
So basically no one who's voting Pleonast has bothered to respond to my many detailed points about why it's a really bad idea to do so? At least present a counter-argument, guys, so I know where you're coming from. Otherwise, I have to agree with septimus (I think?), who said that there are probably a disproportionate number of Scum on the Pleo wagon. Experienced players, in particular, should really, really know better. There is another factor, which is that some experienced players are just plain tired of Pleo's 'style', and want to get rid of him for that reason alone, regardless of alignment. Is it 'good Mafia play'? No. But human nature often triumphs.
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Post by kagemoto on May 10, 2012 9:21:29 GMT -5
So basically no one who's voting Pleonast has bothered to respond to my many detailed points about why it's a really bad idea to do so? At least present a counter-argument, guys, so I know where you're coming from. Otherwise, I have to agree with septimus (I think?), who said that there are probably a disproportionate number of Scum on the Pleo wagon. Experienced players, in particular, should really, really know better. There is another factor, which is that some experienced players are just plain tired of Pleo's 'style', and want to get rid of him for that reason alone, regardless of alignment. Is it 'good Mafia play'? No. But human nature often triumphs. Vote for playing style is one thing. Whether the "playing style" really exists is another. Some players always play in one and the only way. However, some players play differently with different town/scum roles. In my opinion, it is bad mafia play to vote for a playing style, and it is really bad mafia play to pre-vote for an expected playing style. And there is a worse mafia play in that a player vote for a playing style when the basis of such alleged playing style is just hearsay. Now, from Day 0 we have heard about Pleonast's history of claiming town early in the game, and Pleonast himself seems to agree with it. However, for us who did not participate in those old games, we do not know if the basis of the "history" is valid. How many games did Pleonast play to establish this styles? And for those players who voted him based on the history, how many games did you play with him together? 50 games? 20? 10? 5? 3? or just 1? In the culture of my home country 3 can be many, and it seems to me that Pleonast have played more than 3 games. If it is just 3 previous games that Pleonast played in this way, I do not buy it that he has a habit. I do not know if all the games played in this board are still available for reading. So for those who think Pleonast has a "habit", can you just let show the games you refer to, either in game names or links, so I can check if Pleonast's habit really exists?
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Post by lauriern on May 10, 2012 9:33:47 GMT -5
Holy mackerel! I think I need to change my plan to check in once-a-day - there are so many posts!
My thought process for choosing my vote was this:
For me, it was never about Pleo vs. Meeko. There are many, many people to vote for in the game. I went through and read all the posts. To me, Meeko seemed the most vocal. Almost trying too hard to deflect any suspicion off himself. Often when people do this, it's because they are guilty themselves (in this case - of being scum in this game). Could I be wrong & Meeko is Town? Absolutely. Here's what it comes down to for me:
With numbers of 60 Town & ~15 Scum, we are most likely to vote off a Town person first anyway. If Meeko actually turns out to be a Townie, at least I don't have to read his angry, foot stomping, temper tantrum posts anymore.
Meeko, you could be a very nice person off these boards. Unfortunately, the only way I know you is from your posts on these boards.
So, for now, my vote is still for Meeko.
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Post by Pleonast on May 10, 2012 10:24:38 GMT -5
Pleonast has won in his efforts to always get a free pass. See, Meeko, this is where you've gone wrong. You're trying to make this a contest of playstyles, when we should be concentrating on who is on which team. Trying to lynch me because you don't like how I play is counterproductive in two ways. 1: it'll be a mislynch. 2: I win when my team wins; I don't care if I get lynched. Anyway, although you may be scum who's acting out because your attempt to lynch a claimed power role has failed, I think it's likely you're simply a player who's completely lost focus on what a mafia game is about. unvote MeekoI'm going to instead vote CatInASuitfor 1: putting a vote on me for something they expected me to do, while completely missing I'd already done it. Town are more careful than that when placing a vote. and 2: their corrected justification for voting feels too much like picking a reason to avoid changing their vote. Cat wants to vote for me no matter what, so has gone from one flimsy reason to another. Honestly you are a stranger to me. I know you and Pleonast have some sort of connection/friendship/whatever, but I don't know any of you from Adam and I don't "trust" anyone's backing of anyone at this point. I'm not going to be bullied into voting one way or another. *shrug* This is a typical misconception about the game. While we people are friends outside of the game, we players are not. Forget about the name of who's making the argument, look at the argument itself. Is it fair? Is it biased? What motivations does it reveal? Once you've evaluated the post, then check to see who made it. I have no idea if Gadarene is on my team or not. They probably don't know if I'm on theirs. So we don't trust each other. We look at each others posts and try to figure things out. If you don't consider someone's post because don't trust them, then you'll never get anywhere in this game, because many players here are on your team. So you're right not to trust anyone, but you're wrong to not consider trusting anyone. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ And catching up with current posts, I see that unvoting Meeko is tactically bad for me. However, I think many of the newbies voting for me are simply jumping on the bandwagon without any thought to it. There's enough time for them to jump off. I'm against defensive voting with no additional information. But I have claimed a power role and Meeko has claimed vanilla town, so I feel justified putting my vote back before the end of the Day. (Note that I won't be online during the weekend.)
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on May 10, 2012 10:25:54 GMT -5
4. I'm going to try not posting for few real- world days. Some time would be good I think.
4. This will definitely make it harder to find a stronger vote and also will probably not encourage anyone to unvote you.
I'm not here, but I'm not sure how my staying can guarantee players will unvote me, better than me not being here.
New players that are scum are probably on my bandwagon. They would play voting for me with out reason, and claim ignorance in terms of reasons and motive, would plead ignorance all over if it meant my lynch. Reasons to vote me,stated, would help newer players against this.
Gad: Thanks but you didn't answer the five questions. Do you think that Pleonast is giving town more Wine to town than to scum? Do you think Pleoonast is giving more signal or more noise?
Town Consider the wine Pleonast has given you.
IF HIS WINE MAKES YOU SPIT, THEN YOU KNOW PLEONAST IS FULL OF SHIT.
Perhaps I should have let Johnny Cochran open my argument for me.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on May 10, 2012 10:27:49 GMT -5
Pleonast has won in his efforts to always get a free pass. See, Meeko, this is where you've gone wrong. You're trying to make this a contest of playstyles, when we should be concentrating on who is on which team. Trying to lynch me because you don't like how I play is counterproductive in two ways. 1: it'll be a mislynch. 2: I win when my team wins; I don't care if I get lynched. Anyway, although you may be scum who's acting out because your attempt to lynch a claimed power role has failed, I think it's likely you're simply a player who's completely lost focus on what a mafia game is about. unvote MeekoI'm going to instead vote CatInASuitfor 1: putting a vote on me for something they expected me to do, while completely missing I'd already done it. Town are more careful than that when placing a vote. and 2: their corrected justification for voting feels too much like picking a reason to avoid changing their vote. Cat wants to vote for me no matter what, so has gone from one flimsy reason to another. Honestly you are a stranger to me. I know you and Pleonast have some sort of connection/friendship/whatever, but I don't know any of you from Adam and I don't "trust" anyone's backing of anyone at this point. I'm not going to be bullied into voting one way or another. *shrug* This is a typical misconception about the game. While we people are friends outside of the game, we players are not. Forget about the name of who's making the argument, look at the argument itself. Is it fair? Is it biased? What motivations does it reveal? Once you've evaluated the post, then check to see who made it. I have no idea if Gadarene is on my team or not. They probably don't know if I'm on theirs. So we don't trust each other. We look at each others posts and try to figure things out. If you don't consider someone's post because don't trust them, then you'll never get anywhere in this game, because many players here are on your team. So you're right not to trust anyone, but you're wrong to not consider trusting anyone. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ And catching up with current posts, I see that unvoting Meeko is tactically bad for me. However, I think many of the newbies voting for me are simply jumping on the bandwagon without any thought to it. There's enough time for them to jump off. I'm against defensive voting with no additional information. But I have claimed a power role and Meeko has claimed vanilla town, so I feel justified putting my vote back before the end of the Day. (Note that I won't be online during the weekend.) Crossposted while I'm on my iPad. Crap. Let me consider this post for a second.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on May 10, 2012 10:33:36 GMT -5
Pleonast -- as a person you just move up few a notches for me. AFTER THIS GAME, I would like to start a dialogue with you as people, not players.
As a player, in short, your post ends up pinging me.
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Post by Gadarene on May 10, 2012 10:33:59 GMT -5
Gad: Thanks but you didn't answer the five questions. Do you think that Pleonast is giving town more Wine to town than to scum? Do you think Pleoonast is giving more signal or more noise? I think Pleonast BY FAR is giving more wine to Scum. As of today. As I've already explained. What do you disagree with in my post about how waiting until Day Four to resolve him doesn't harm the Town at all, and probably helps the Town? As for your second question, the signal/noise ratio on Pleo's side is irrelevant except to the extent that it bears upon the likelihood of him being Town or Scum, which I don't think it does here (and nobody's made a case otherwise -- he is probably Town in a vacuum. That is the baseline). I don't agree with Pleo's tactical decision to claim a power on Day Zero. Not sure how much clearer I can be about that or how many more times I need to say it. That doesn't mean he should be lynched.
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Post by Silver Jan on May 10, 2012 10:46:27 GMT -5
Pleonast -- as a person you just move up few a notches for me. AFTER THIS GAME, I would like to start a dialogue with you as people, not players. As a player, in short, your post ends up pinging me. That might be a good idea for you two to chat after the game. Although I am not convinced that Pleo is Town, I have no reason to doubt him at this time, I don't doubt Meeko either when he says he is Vanilla. It is far too early in the game to do that, there is no evidence yet. Meeko, you knew that Pleo would claim so why the vote? If he had claimed scum, I could understand that ;D. I think it could only help your case Meeko if you continued to play and not hide for a few days (take this from someone who recently had a major tantrum in game)
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Post by Idle Thoughts on May 10, 2012 10:48:36 GMT -5
Vote count: Pleonast - 7 votes (CatInASuit, BillMc, Meeko, cassiepietz, michelehunter, dizzymrslizzy, francescaj) Meeko - 6 votes (Inner Stickler, lauriern, amykb, patricia, crys, annetastic) starirain - 4 votes (Mr Special Ed, colby11, Gadarene, septimus) dizzymrslizzy - 3 votes (Suburban Plankton, wombat99, Silver Jan) texcat - 2 votes (guiri, jmj697mn) Guiri - 1 vote (Susan K Murphy) Mr Special Ed - 1 vote (oldred) cassiepietz - 1 vote (kagemoto) Suburban Plankton - 1 vote (Mahaloth) annetastic - 1 vote (allyjayne) michelehunter - 1 vote (Lightfoot) CatInASuit - 1 vote (Pleonast)
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on May 10, 2012 10:54:52 GMT -5
Gad: Thanks but you didn't answer the five questions. Do you think that Pleonast is giving town more Wine to town than to scum? Do you think Pleoonast is giving more signal or more noise? I think Pleonast BY FAR is giving more wine to Scum. As of today. As I've already explained. What do you disagree with in my post about how waiting until Day Four to resolve him doesn't harm the Town at all, and probably helps the Town? As for your second question, the signal/noise ratio on Pleo's side is irrelevant except to the extent that it bears upon the likelihood of him being Town or Scum, which I don't think it does here (and nobody's made a case otherwise -- he is probably Town in a vacuum. That is the baseline). I don't agree with Pleo's tactical decision to claim a power on Day Zero. Not sure how much clearer I can be about that or how many more times I need to say it. That doesn't mean he should be lynched. Texcat being a PFK but assumed Town Vig in Arkham 2. I know it was just the last game we played, but it seems that know one remembers it but me. "Leashing" does not work, Assuming things does not work. Town waiting until later to do things they should do ASAP, does not work. Town being timid rarely works in their favor. Pleonast claiming as he does, and in this game ON DAY ZERO no less amounts to a land-grab.He takes all for himself, and most players resign to the lot that he is the rightful land owner, the best thing to do is to sharecrop for him. Most games, scum need to claim town sooner or later. To say nothing of the game our group plays overflowing with not only claims, but endless debate of "how will we claim THIS TIME and or how to circumvent mod created protections against claims and handshakes. If I am against claims and handshakes, as I am, you can bet I am against an unprovoked, unproven claim, BEFORE THE GAME STARTS. And I am. Noise / Signal is irreverent. ...........No dice here.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on May 10, 2012 10:59:52 GMT -5
ELSEWHERE
What prevents newer players from claiming ignorance as a defense instead of claiming scum?
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Post by Gadarene on May 10, 2012 11:01:16 GMT -5
What do you mean by "leashing," in this context?
I also have no idea what you're getting at with the land-grab stuff. Why does him claiming something have anything to do with you?
Meeko, true or false: (1) Pleonast habitually claims at the beginning of a game, regardless of role. (2) In a vacuum, Pleonast is way more likely to be Town than Scum, assuming normal-ish distribution of alignments.
Please answer these questions and then explain to me why voting for Pleo is not simply a vote for someone who is probably Town based on behavior that is at most role neutral for them (i.e., he is not more likely to do it as scum than as Town).
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Post by Gadarene on May 10, 2012 11:01:47 GMT -5
ELSEWHERE What prevents newer players from claiming ignorance as a defense instead of claiming scum? Nobody is ever going to claim scum. Can you elaborate on your question?
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Post by Gadarene on May 10, 2012 11:03:32 GMT -5
Vote count: Pleonast - 7 votes (CatInASuit, BillMc, Meeko, cassiepietz, michelehunter, dizzymrslizzy, francescaj) Meeko - 6 votes (Inner Stickler, lauriern, amykb, patricia, crys, annetastic) starirain - 4 votes (Mr Special Ed, colby11, Gadarene, septimus) dizzymrslizzy - 3 votes (Suburban Plankton, wombat99, Silver Jan) texcat - 2 votes (guiri, jmj697mn) Guiri - 1 vote (Susan K Murphy) Mr Special Ed - 1 vote (oldred) cassiepietz - 1 vote (kagemoto) Suburban Plankton - 1 vote (Mahaloth) annetastic - 1 vote (allyjayne) michelehunter - 1 vote (Lightfoot) CatInASuit - 1 vote (Pleonast) I really need CatInASuit and BillMc to come in here and attempt to further justify their Pleo vote, in light of the points that I've made. I'd also like cassiepietz, michelehunter, dizzymrslizzy, and francescaj to do the same. This is really silly.
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Post by lauriern on May 10, 2012 11:10:15 GMT -5
ELSEWHERE What prevents newer players from claiming ignorance as a defense instead of claiming scum? Even we newbies know better than to let you all know we are scum. Oops! Did I say that??? LMAO! Hmmmm...bet you're wondering If I might really be scum now, aren't you? ;D
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Post by Gadarene on May 10, 2012 11:13:08 GMT -5
ELSEWHERE What prevents newer players from claiming ignorance as a defense instead of claiming scum? Even we newbies know better than to let you all know we are scum. Oops! Did I say that??? LMAO! Hmmmm...bet you're wondering If I might really be scum now, aren't you? ;D I really like this post, and I think it makes lauriern slightly more likely than random distribution to be Town, because I think it's the sort of thing that she's more likely to post as Town than as Scum.
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Post by Silver Jan on May 10, 2012 11:16:00 GMT -5
ELSEWHERE What prevents newer players from claiming ignorance as a defense instead of claiming scum? No one claims scum, except Idle and he's the Mod in this one, ignorance is no defense in Mafia! And you thought I had forgotten the last game? Look what happened when Pleo was lynched on D1, Scum won. I admit that he took a scum with him but he could have helped Town more so than Texcat did and she was taken under Town's wing. OK enough metagaming, let's play this one, clean slates!
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Post by Silver Jan on May 10, 2012 11:19:20 GMT -5
Even we newbies know better than to let you all know we are scum. Oops! Did I say that??? LMAO! Hmmmm...bet you're wondering If I might really be scum now, aren't you? ;D I really like this post, and I think it makes lauriern slightly more likely than random distribution to be Town, because I think it's the sort of thing that she's more likely to post as Town than as Scum. That post giver her Townie points from me too, a new scum would be far to scared to post that, I hope.
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Post by kagemoto on May 10, 2012 11:22:50 GMT -5
Meeko,
I am not going to vote you on Day 1, at least for now. However, I personally do not like your playing STRATEGY of focusing on one single player in Day 1.
I have no problem with your playing style. The name of the game is called MAFIA, and players, newbie or experienced, should be prepared for the not-so-nice things in this game. No one should come to this game expecting handshakes, smiles, polite nods and afternoon teas (not that they are not allowed... nice things can be coexisting with not-so-nice things). I think it is perfectly ok (although not necessarily good strategies) to have an attitude, use the profanity, say whatever you want to say in this game, or attack one player as hard as possible, as long as it does not arise to the level where out-of-game authorities have to be involved.
However, what I do not get is this: even if Pleonast is a scum in this game, he is only one of the scums in this game, and you know it. It is ok to think of him or any other individual player as a scum in Day 1. It is NOT ok to think of one player as THE ONLY scum in Day 1. I do not see you checking anyone else to a certain degree, and if you did, the majority of your post about Pleonast covered your effort well. You also said you can't find a better vote than Pleonast in Day 1. To me, it shows that you want to do Pleonast hunting, not scum hunting.
Also, I believe that Pleonast is not the only player in this game that you have played other games with. I have a hard time believing that Pleonast is the only player who has a habit. But so far I see nothing. This really makes me wonder.
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Post by kagemoto on May 10, 2012 11:24:18 GMT -5
Well, I see that while I was posting Meeko starts to talk about other players. Haven't seen the new posts when I was posting.
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Post by lauriern on May 10, 2012 11:30:38 GMT -5
I really like this post, and I think it makes lauriern slightly more likely than random distribution to be Town, because I think it's the sort of thing that she's more likely to post as Town than as Scum. That post giver her Townie points from me too, a new scum would be far to scared to post that, I hope.
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Post by dizzymrslizzy on May 10, 2012 11:57:39 GMT -5
And I forgot to bold Unvote Meeko
Vote dizzymrslizzyAnother thing about dizzymrslizzy - in day 0 post #80, she says Yes Sir! I have no freaking clue what I'm doing, and weekends are tough for me to be on,but I'm here! when all she needed to say was "confirmed". I think she's scum and her role PM said something about needing to be on the scum chat board on the weekends, and that's why she mentions the weekends. Um I was late checking into Day 0, and I was explaining why I was late to the party. I didn't understand that a day was more than one day. TYVM. But go ahead vote away based on innocent statements.
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Post by dizzymrslizzy on May 10, 2012 12:00:41 GMT -5
and yes I'm taking these votes personally. Obviously I'm not doing a very good job playing this game
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Post by lianne on May 10, 2012 12:09:45 GMT -5
For anyone else who is having trouble keeping up - have just found out that you can get this board on your iphone (although it's not free, sadly) - and it's much easier to read on there too!
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