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Post by septimus on Jun 7, 2012 13:31:44 GMT -5
Gut feeling more than anything, but IMHO septimusII's posts read like someone trying to force Pleonast to claim on Day 5. The initial posts is almost like he is trying to get Pleonast to claim Doctor or VT. ... septimus has it as a given that there is at least one more doctor. We can't know that as town, but it would be very obvious to scum, especially if they had been blocked last Night. The fact that it's already Day 5, Pleo has NOT been Night Killed and had NOT claimed Mason or Detective made it very likely, it seems to me, that he is Scum. I wanted to point that out. And, yes, force him to make a more specific claim. I still think Pleo is odds-on favorite to be Scum. If he really is Detective, I think he played poorly. I still don't know why he claimed Night 0, unless his reputation as a good player is so high that he thought it important to get Doc's Protection. And I think a Detective, especially one who has already told Scum he's a Power, should breadcrumb his Results. I favor giving Pleo a pass for now just because it would be such a big loss to lose him if he's telling the truth. My suspicion will grow as he survives, but Scum is subject to WIFOM pressure (perhaps Doc will ignore me and Protect Pleo; perhaps Town will misLynch Pleo toMorrow). I don't know how many Detectives or Doctors we started with (and offering advice to "Doctors" does NOT mean I know them to exist), but if Scum have 3 times the usual number of Night Kills, it might make sense that we have 3 times the usual number of Doctors. I worry we may have only two Detectives but do NOT think a hidden Detective should claim now just to discredit Pleo. BTW, I don't suspect CatInaSuit of being Scum despite that he voted me. (... But I wrote that last sentence NOT because I find CIAS particularly Townish, but just to show how easy it is for a hidden Detective to "breadcrumb" a Result, like "CIAS is not Scum." BTW, I am not a Detective: that was just an example.) (On a separate matter, the value of a Scum in a Game without Detectives is proportional to the square-root of Town side, NOT a constant -- see Wikipedia -- , so I'd be leery of applying "JSexton points" to a game so different in size from usual.)
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jun 7, 2012 16:49:13 GMT -5
Pleonast - 5 votes (Meeko, richardbeckman, Mahaloth, cassiepietz, michelehunter) Texcat - 4 votes (stairrirain, guiri, Septimus, Colby11) Meeko - 3 votes (patricia, Pleonast, annetastic) CatInASuit - 1 vote (oldred) patricia - 1 vote (LadyRogue) Archangel - 1 vote (SilverJan) Septimus - 1 vote (CatInASuit) Colby11 - 1 vote (Wombat99)
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Post by Archangel on Jun 7, 2012 17:17:42 GMT -5
Vote Texcat
I don't think a lynch of anyone other than Pleo, Meeko or Texcat yields us enough data. I also think in a lynch like LadyRogue's, one of the other runners-up is bound to be scum, and I just get frustrated townie from Meeko.
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Post by Meeko on Jun 7, 2012 18:16:38 GMT -5
It's really frustrating when players don't even understand the basics of how the game works. This coming from someone who claimed before the game officially started.
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Post by Rich Beckman on Jun 7, 2012 18:25:53 GMT -5
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Post by Meeko on Jun 7, 2012 18:26:53 GMT -5
But you're not. How many players have to point that out to you before it sinks in? You're stalling. How many more stalling attempts will I have to point out to you give before it sinks in? All you have to do is investigate me. That's it. Is it worth all of this? It would be, if you couldn't do what I am asking. It would be, if you would need to put out more and more red herrings ..... anything to get Town and Meeko off of you.
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Post by Meeko on Jun 7, 2012 18:29:41 GMT -5
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Post by kagemoto on Jun 7, 2012 18:41:53 GMT -5
I was re-reading Night 4 when I see this. Snipped. sorry i missed EOD. still don't have much access to the net. Archangel, i don't begrudge your vote. with so many players, meta may be the way to go until the number of players is much smaller. Talking about metagaming, I'll play one here. We're in Day 5 and it has become so obvious that gnarlycharlie was lurking. I single him out because his reason of lurking was "having Internet issues". And since I will do metagaming here, this is not the first game in which I see him pulling the Internet issue as the reason of non-participation. Now, if Internet issues appears in more than 1 game that makes a player lurking for the WHOLE game, it can be only one of the followings: (1) the Internet issue has been a long lasting one for months. (2) the Internet detects that a mafia game is ongoing and decides not to be cooperative only when the game is on. Ok, this one is a joke. But if any player wants to use this as a reason, see (3). (3) the Internet issue is in fact an excuse. I am Internet addicted and I know how it feels with long lasting Internet issues. In fact, due to RL issues, I had the same issues the last couple of days without regular Internet access. However, it seems to me that gnarlycharlie's case is (1) that he has had the Internet issues for months, so it was not something new to him. And he's not a new player. I really don't understand that, if you know this game requires participation, and you have no regular Internet access, and you know the issue way before this game started... why you still want to join this game to be a lurker? Vote gnarlycharlieUnvote gnarlycharlieI'm not leaving my vote on gnarlycharlie because I have no idea which side he is on, as basically there is nothing much to read about. But I want this on the vote record history. There are other lurkers in the game, and at some point of the game active players will start looking at them.
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Post by Rich Beckman on Jun 7, 2012 18:45:57 GMT -5
God help me, I don't know how to read!!
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Post by Meeko on Jun 7, 2012 18:48:03 GMT -5
As a Detective, my lifespan is going to be short no matter what. So, instead of using my limited number of investigations on players who most players have already made their own decision about, I've investigated players we have nothing to go on. They might not seem helpful to you now, but after I get killed in one or two Nights, knowing the team of those players is going to be extremely useful. This is so many levels of Wrong and Stupid. But, you know what? I'll punt this and ask the spoiled board to take it. It's obvious that you are as sharp as a rolling ball. No I won't. You have to power to save Town here, and you are pissing on that, to go snipe hunting. It's bad enough that you hijack the game to your own ends with your claimophile bullshit, you now have to be a total asshat and claim players that would rather not be in this game, and would never ping anyone. If I were detective, I would try to save town from the most number of mislynches, as soon as possible. Not those that all of us have frankly forgotten about. To this end, I agree that a Detective, and a Claimed Detective has a short time span. It would make sense to me, to detect runners up on the lynch. But that's just me, and apparently, Meeko can't do anything right. But for what it's worth Pleo, if you are Detective, you are doing it EXACTLY Backwards. SCUM MOTIVATION MUCH? But it does serve for your stalling, and it does suit your false claim.
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Post by Meeko on Jun 7, 2012 18:53:43 GMT -5
NETA : Further Pleo, holding back your results implies that you know when you will die. Elaboration here, would be appreciated.
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Post by dizzymrslizzy on Jun 7, 2012 21:18:06 GMT -5
Vote: Texcat
I most likely will not be around for end of day. I just wanted to get a vote in now while I had the chance. I'm willing to wait one more Day on Pleo to see what he comes up with. Meeko has given me a town vibe since Day 1.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jun 7, 2012 21:45:27 GMT -5
Texcat - 6 votes (stairrirain, guiri, Septimus, Colby11, Archangel, dizzymrslizzy) Pleonast - 5 votes (Meeko, richardbeckman, Mahaloth, cassiepietz, michelehunter) Meeko - 3 votes (patricia, Pleonast, annetastic) CatInASuit - 1 vote (oldred) patricia - 1 vote (LadyRogue) Archangel - 1 vote (SilverJan) Septimus - 1 vote (CatInASuit) Colby11 - 1 vote (Wombat99)
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Post by CatInASuit on Jun 8, 2012 4:07:51 GMT -5
how are you adjusting the point system to account for multiple scum kills? That seems like a huge bonus to scum. Given the scum appear to three kills at Night, I swapped two of the scum for Scum with extra NKs. Actually, you have a good point, that is supposed to be for a single extra NK, not a continuous extra NK. Maybe it doesn't quite work out. Hmmm. Another look at the game. I was also wondering if it was just a trebled up version of a 20 player game with some slight adjustment. So roughly as follows. 12 scum 3 detectives 3 docs 6 masons 3 others (2 CTs + PFK cancel each other out pointswise) 33 vanilla But that would mean the scum have 3 kills per Night, consistently through out the game. It would also explain why the game can still be shortish, but also means we don't have a drop off in kills later on. It would also account for why they haven't taken out masons or detectives. They could do it in a couple of Nights with no problems. In fact, I have the feeling they can take out the currently (nearly)confirmed townies faster than they can be found. That probably makes more sense than using JSP.
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Post by CatInASuit on Jun 8, 2012 4:17:02 GMT -5
Vote TexcatI don't think a lynch of anyone other than Pleo, Meeko or Texcat yields us enough data. I also think in a lynch like LadyRogue's, one of the other runners-up is bound to be scum, and I just get frustrated townie from Meeko. I'm sorry, but what? Voting for texcat because it might give more information, rather than voting for who you think is scummiest. If texcat is town, then the people are more likely to be scum. Well, no, it's quite possible this is a town on town lynch. Of course, texcat could be a scum bus, to give lots of cred to the people on the lynch. Just what information are you expecting to find?
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Post by Archangel on Jun 8, 2012 6:49:10 GMT -5
Vote TexcatI don't think a lynch of anyone other than Pleo, Meeko or Texcat yields us enough data. I also think in a lynch like LadyRogue's, one of the other runners-up is bound to be scum, and I just get frustrated townie from Meeko. I'm sorry, but what? Voting for texcat because it might give more information, rather than voting for who you think is scummiest. If texcat is town, then the people are more likely to be scum. Well, no, it's quite possible this is a town on town lynch. Of course, texcat could be a scum bus, to give lots of cred to the people on the lynch. Just what information are you expecting to find? A significant voting record. The person I find scummiest right now is Pleonast but I'm not voting for Pleo because I've seen sufficient evidence that gives me a reasonable doubt. I could vote for GnarlyCharlie again but that tells nobody anything. And I could be better at hunting scum but IMO NOTHING is going to get done here until the Pleo/Meeko thing is solved. So at least a Texcat lynch gives us evidence to work on. (Yes, it's possible in a game of this size that none of the voters on her are scum. Possible but unlikely IMO.) That may have come out as if I'm voting for her but don't think she's scummy at all, though. If so, that's not what I meant. Here are the factors beyond voting record that are making me choose her: 1. Her play does feel different this game than the other games I've played with her. 2. I reread Guiri's most recent comments on her and they are more convincing than the earlier arguments. 3. GuiriI did a pretty damn good job finding scum. (I know we have no way of knowing if GuiriII is town yet, and I wish he were around more.) Also, you completely ignored the part where I said I feel very strongly that in a lynch like Ladyrogue's, one of the runners-up is highly likely to have been scum and I get a strong frustrated townie vibe from Meeko.
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Post by wombat99 on Jun 8, 2012 7:03:53 GMT -5
Another look at the game. I was also wondering if it was just a trebled up version of a 20 player game with some slight adjustment. So roughly as follows. 12 scum 3 detectives 3 docs 6 masons 3 others (2 CTs + PFK cancel each other out pointswise) 33 vanilla But that would mean the scum have 3 kills per Night, consistently through out the game. It would also explain why the game can still be shortish, but also means we don't have a drop off in kills later on. It would also account for why they haven't taken out masons or detectives. They could do it in a couple of Nights with no problems. In fact, I have the feeling they can take out the currently (nearly)confirmed townies faster than they can be found. That probably makes more sense than using JSP. Mahaloth told us that there were 5 Masons to start. Also, Silver Jan said there is no discussion board for Masons. Does the presence or lack of a separate Mason board affect the weight given to the Masons?
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Post by CatInASuit on Jun 8, 2012 7:40:07 GMT -5
That may have come out as if I'm voting for her but don't think she's scummy at all, though. If so, that's not what I meant. Here are the factors beyond voting record that are making me choose her: 1. Her play does feel different this game than the other games I've played with her. 2. I reread Guiri's most recent comments on her and they are more convincing than the earlier arguments. 3. GuiriI did a pretty damn good job finding scum. (I know we have no way of knowing if GuiriII is town yet, and I wish he were around more.) Also, you completely ignored the part where I said I feel very strongly that in a lynch like Ladyrogue's, one of the runners-up is highly likely to have been scum and I get a strong frustrated townie vibe from Meeko.Thanks for that. At least you have reasons for voting her. The biggest problem I see is that if we lynch texcat and she turns out to be town, then people are likely to want to lynch Meeko. If they do and he is town as well, that gives the scum a big boost from their current state. Are we going to continue trying to concentrate on a couple of people to the exclusion of all others?
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Post by CatInASuit on Jun 8, 2012 7:45:51 GMT -5
I don't know how many Detectives or Doctors we started with (and offering advice to "Doctors" does NOT mean I know them to exist), but if Scum have 3 times the usual number of Night Kills, it might make sense that we have 3 times the usual number of Doctors. I worry we may have only two Detectives but do NOT think a hidden Detective should claim now just to discredit Pleo. BTW, I don't suspect CatInaSuit of being Scum despite that he voted me. (... But I wrote that last sentence NOT because I find CIAS particularly Townish, but just to show how easy it is for a hidden Detective to "breadcrumb" a Result, like "CIAS is not Scum." BTW, I am not a Detective: that was just an example.) (On a separate matter, the value of a Scum in a Game without Detectives is proportional to the square-root of Town side, NOT a constant -- see Wikipedia -- , so I'd be leery of applying "JSexton points" to a game so different in size from usual.) Couple of things. I disagree about your claim, your posts came across to me that you knew for certain another Doc existed. PS: If you were a detective, that last piece would not count as a breadcrumb as it could be interpreted in so many different ways.
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Post by AmyKay on Jun 8, 2012 9:05:20 GMT -5
I can't wait any longer to vote (as I said in the "away" thread, heading camping and I don't know if there will be service), so here goes. I started out the day incredibly suspicious of Colby. I wasn't the only one, and his responses to others made sense. Then, when he un-claimed, I asked him about it, but am only fairly convinced by his responses... it still seems like a potential ploy to me, but I'm not sure. I decided to leave Meeko/ Pleo alone because I don't think they can both be Scum and Meeko is seeming more Town to me than previously... and I don't know what to think about Pleonast. then, a new suspect came to light... Ther is one problem with this in that we don't know how many doctors there are, maybe 2 or 3, maybe more, but septimus has it as a given that there is at least one more doctor. We can't know that as town, but it would be very obvious to scum, especially if they had been blocked last Night. Hmm, for the moment Vote: septimus II snipped & bleached. that's a good point. But Septimus isn't the only one theorizing, and his posts alone don't seem super-informed in the way that one of Colby's does... 42 players remain. We know for certain that at most there will be 3 kills. I think Pleonast might be onto something with the number of scum and the night kill in Day 4. 4 scum have been killed, and it seems that there was only 2 kills last Night. So I want to say that there are 8 scum left. snipped. this post just seems a bit "certain" to me. It comes off rather strong, IMO. Combined with the fact that Colby isn't completely off my radar anyway, I'm going back to my original thought in the early Day. vote Colby
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Post by CatInASuit on Jun 8, 2012 9:17:57 GMT -5
Erm, you do realise Hal Briston has "investigated" colby11 and said they were town?
And you are voting for him? Why?
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Post by kagemoto on Jun 8, 2012 9:26:04 GMT -5
I don't like multi-quotes in a post, because quoting such a post would mess up the quotes... Because I was using the same tactic I was using the whole game--bluffing scum. They hadn't killed me on any previous Night, there was no reason to think they'd suddenly killed me on the next. Plus, having only two town results isn't really enough to justify a Detective claim. Bottom line: I was willing to risk one more Night for a 50% increase in the number of results. Pleonast, while I see your point by bluffing Scums, I have a big issue as to my question to you earlier, which I should articulate in a different way... What is the difference between Day 4 and Day 5 that you decide to claim in Day 5 but not in Day 4?To me, your "bluffing Scum" theory works not only in Day 4, but also in Day 5. They hadn't killed you on any previous Night (including Night 4), there was no reason to think they'd suddenly killed you on the next. Plus, having only three[/b] town results isn't really enough to justify a Detective claim. (Yes, three is more than two, but this is such a big game that I really don't see the difference between 2 and 3.) Honestly, at the moment my gut feeling says that your claim is not a false claim, at least not a false claim by a Scum, because there is no good reason that a Scum would false claim with a no result in Night 3. But my gut feeling can be wrong. And what makes me uncomfortable with your Day 5 claim is that it seems an under the pressure claim, and it was you who offered the theory that a claim made under the pressure is more likely to be false. No vote for now. I have some time, and I'll think about it a bit more.
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Post by wombat99 on Jun 8, 2012 9:44:45 GMT -5
snipped We're in Day 5 and it has become so obvious that gnarlycharlie was lurking. I single him out because his reason of lurking was "having Internet issues". And since I will do metagaming here, this is not the first game in which I see him pulling the Internet issue as the reason of non-participation. Now, if Internet issues appears in more than 1 game that makes a player lurking for the WHOLE game, it can be only one of the followings: (1) the Internet issue has been a long lasting one for months. (2) the Internet detects that a mafia game is ongoing and decides not to be cooperative only when the game is on. Ok, this one is a joke. But if any player wants to use this as a reason, see (3). (3) the Internet issue is in fact an excuse. This post from Day1 may shed some light on GnarlyCharlie's internet access:
sorry for being away folks. internet access is minimal. it's killing me in all my games. this one is especially bad because of the number of posts. Such an easy excuse to formulate. You are now on my watchlist!
It is considered unethical to invent personal lies to explain game conduct, and I'm sure gnarlycharlie is not doing that. He and I both live in less-developed Asia where Internet access is not as ubiquitous as in U.S.A.
Charlie is coming under Lynch pressure in the current game at S.D. Message Board, partly because of his poor Internet access. (Ordinarily I shouldn't say even this much about a Mafia game outside its own thread, but that SDMB game is unique in allowing any communication: e-mail, telephones, carrier pigeons ... even telepathy? )
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Post by kagemoto on Jun 8, 2012 9:49:17 GMT -5
Meeko,
I think you are protecting Pleonast, whether you have been aware of it or not. I was trying to get caught up with the Day 5 posts, and there were occasions when I was only so close to put down my vote against Pleonast... and then I would see one of your posts "against" him, which makes me hesitate. And from other players' responses, I don't think I am the only one. In fact, I believe that, other than your own votes, none of the other votes against Pleonast in all 5 Days of this game was due to the reasons offered by you - those players who vote Pleonast have their own reasons, and your posting style, which I think is totally acceptable in this game, has successfully taken some votes away from Pleonast.
If you really want to get Pleonast out of this game, what you have done apparent have worked the opposite way. If you indeed was trying to protect Pleonast, you have done a rather good job.
I think you are Town, because a Scum focusing so much on one player would put himself/herself under the spotlight, and you are still constantly doing so in Day 5. I think what you have done is the "Town playing the Scum way". And I guess you are probably a Town Vanilla, because you did not claim any Power when you were among the vote leaders. I can be wrong though.
Again, no vote here, there is no reason to vote a player who I think is Town.
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Post by Pleonast on Jun 8, 2012 10:07:26 GMT -5
Pleonast, while I see your point by bluffing Scums, I have a big issue as to my question to you earlier, which I should articulate in a different way... What is the difference between Day 4 and Day 5 that you decide to claim in Day 5 but not in Day 4?To me, your "bluffing Scum" theory works not only in Day 4, but also in Day 5. They hadn't killed you on any previous Night (including Night 4), there was no reason to think they'd suddenly killed you on the next. Plus, having only three [/b] town results isn't really enough to justify a Detective claim. (Yes, three is more than two, but this is such a big game that I really don't see the difference between 2 and 3.)[/quote] I consider three town results (or a scum result plus one more) to be worth the life of a Detective. But I probably would've waited one more Day, if a Doctor hadn't been killed last Night. With that, scum would have greater reason to think I wasn't a self-protecting Doctor. So the risk-benefit scales tipped towards claiming. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Has texcat made any role claim at all? unvote Meekovote texcatfor 1) lack of a credible role claim. and 2) to prevent last-minute vote shenanigans that would result in my lynch.
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Post by kagemoto on Jun 8, 2012 10:27:01 GMT -5
Hi guys, remember me? Sorry, but sometimes shit happens...and a bunch of it happened over the last couple of weeks. Thanks for not killing me... I'm going to try a speed-read of everything I missed, and I promise I'll actually participate from here on. So far the promise is a shaky one. No participation after this post.
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Post by kagemoto on Jun 8, 2012 10:29:33 GMT -5
snipped We're in Day 5 and it has become so obvious that gnarlycharlie was lurking. I single him out because his reason of lurking was "having Internet issues". And since I will do metagaming here, this is not the first game in which I see him pulling the Internet issue as the reason of non-participation. Now, if Internet issues appears in more than 1 game that makes a player lurking for the WHOLE game, it can be only one of the followings: (1) the Internet issue has been a long lasting one for months. (2) the Internet detects that a mafia game is ongoing and decides not to be cooperative only when the game is on. Ok, this one is a joke. But if any player wants to use this as a reason, see (3). (3) the Internet issue is in fact an excuse. This post from Day1 may shed some light on GnarlyCharlie's internet access: [/size][/quote][/quote] I am fully aware of where gnarlycharlie is from. In fact, I myself was from one of the areas of the "less-developed Asia", and I do agree that Internet access there is not as ubiquitous as in U.S.A. However, I did not accuse gnarlycharlie of using the Internet access as an excuse. In my post which you quoted and snipped, I made it very clear that I think gnarlycharlie's case was having the long-lasting Internet issues for months, and still decided to join this game (which requires Internet access) knowing that he will have problems participating regularly. I have played together with gnarlycharlie in more than one game before, and I think he was a good player when he was able to participate regularly. But let's face it... if you are a basketball player and you have a serious leg injury that you can barely move your body, do you join a basketball game and tell your teammates on the court "sorry I am injured, I can't run and I can't jump and I can't even stand and keep my balance for 5 minutes, but I will be playing and try my best in this game"? Or do you skip the game even though you want to play so much? I think the choice is so obvious. Again, this means nothing as to whether gnarlycharlie is Town or Scum.
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Post by septimus on Jun 8, 2012 11:13:56 GMT -5
[hypothetically...] BTW, I don't suspect CatInaSuit of being Scum despite that he voted me. PS: If you were a detective, that last piece would not count as a breadcrumb as it could be interpreted in so many different ways. I'm glad you wrote this because it proves my point that a good breadcrumb might be almost undetectable, before the flip. If I'm ever in a game, get Killed and flip Detective, I can almost guarantee that I will leave a crumb the Day after every Investigation. If the excerpt above was the clearest such affirmation, Players could infer CIAS was revealed to me as Town. Period.
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Post by Rich Beckman on Jun 8, 2012 12:06:14 GMT -5
PS: If you were a detective, that last piece would not count as a breadcrumb as it could be interpreted in so many different ways. I'm glad you wrote this because it proves my point that a good breadcrumb might be almost undetectable, before the flip. If I'm ever in a game, get Killed and flip Detective, I can almost guarantee that I will leave a crumb the Day after every Investigation. If the excerpt above was the clearest such affirmation, Players could infer CIAS was revealed to me as Town. Period. Therein lies an argument against investigating players who are not participating or barely so. It must be significantly easier to leave such a breadcrumb in a conversation with or about the subject of the investigation than to figure out how to subtly mention a non-participant for the purpose of a breadcrumb.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Jun 8, 2012 12:14:01 GMT -5
hi all. apologies again for not being around much. to clarify, my net issues are more because i moved recently and it's taking forever to get connected. i have to go to a cafe and that at times is too taxing. i try to read up in school but i'm only there for a few hours, mostly in class.
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now, i'm not ready to lynch a claimed cop. i don't understand the argument that he's scum becuase he's still alive, Hal is too. perhaps it's because Pleo hasn't caught scum that is really driving this. id fo, that's not fair. finding scum is not easy. Hal by his own admission said he was very lucky.
i agree that Meeko is feels town but that's meta.
so' i'll Vote Texcat.
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