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Post by hockeyguy8435 on Sept 18, 2009 21:46:24 GMT -5
Well, if we didn't have Blockey to lynch yesterDay I would've claimed then. I claimed now so we have a viable lynch candidate toDay. Whether it's me or Parazival. I know I could've kept quiet and just continued to target Parazival at Night and hope I got targeted to redirect it onto him, but why? I thought I'd save us all the mislynch and get him lynched toDay.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Sept 19, 2009 19:19:52 GMT -5
Thing is, hockeyguy, you've made your own role nearly useless by claiming. Using me as your proxy actually would have been a very good idea - if I'm lying you get an anti-town player killed and ID a killer, and if I'm telling the truth you'd trade a vanilla townie for a killer ID.
I'm still wondering why you reject the possibility of two Magicians. At the very least your thoughts on this ought to be on the record.
I urge people to remember that this is not a case of either/or. We can both be telling the truth here. Of course now that I realize the actually makes it more plausible that hockeyguy is scum - if I'm lynched he can just say he made a mistake. I'm not going to vote for hockeyguy unless I really think he's scum, and right now I think he's just mistaken.
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Post by julie on Sept 19, 2009 19:27:38 GMT -5
Well, if we didn't have Blockey to lynch yesterDay I would've claimed then. I claimed now so we have a viable lynch candidate toDay. Whether it's me or Parazival. I know I could've kept quiet and just continued to target Parazival at Night and hope I got targeted to redirect it onto him, but why? I thought I'd save us all the mislynch and get him lynched toDay. Why? For the same reason you kept quiet in the first place. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you should or shouldn't have claimed. I was just curious about your thinking on the timing.
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 19, 2009 19:28:30 GMT -5
Thing is, hockeyguy, you've made your own role nearly useless by claiming. Using me as your proxy actually would have been a very good idea - if I'm lying you get an anti-town player killed and ID a killer, and if I'm telling the truth you'd trade a vanilla townie for a killer ID. I'm still wondering why you reject the possibility of two Magicians. At the very least your thoughts on this ought to be on the record. I urge people to remember that this is not a case of either/or. We can both be telling the truth here. Of course now that I realize the actually makes it more plausible that hockeyguy is scum - if I'm lynched he can just say he made a mistake. I'm not going to vote for hockeyguy unless I really think he's scum, and right now I think he's just mistaken. That makes me more suspicious of hockeyguy than I was before. Think about it--the only plausible scenario in which hockeyguy is scum is if both of our claimed Magicians are wolves. in this event, Hockeyguy would have to evade suspicion as much as possible. Thus his poor Cabal case--he doesn't want to look like he has PIS. This would also be a valid reason for Parzival to stress the 'multiple magicians' possiblity--by having the two of them adopt opposite positions, they look less coordinated after one of them dies. Vote: Hockeyguy P.S. If I'm right about my suspicions, you guys have to be the ballsiest bunch of scum I've ever played against.
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Post by julie on Sept 19, 2009 19:40:25 GMT -5
If Parzival is a wolf, then he knew that Ed and Meeko were dead wolves before the rest of us did, which makes him popping out of the woodwork to make a claim about Ed based on a false claim very odd. It doesn't seem to have much upside for him, since a counter-claim can (and might) lead to his lynching AND wolves have to be hurting already for loss of two right out of the gate.
So, his claim could flush out the Magician and could make him an assumed vanilla. That doesn't seem like a good return on the investment.
If he's Undead, the same thing applies. He knew storyteller was dead and it was a guarantee at that point that Mr. Blockey was toast.
I'm not saying someone wouldn't do that, but it seems not to be a high-reward play.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 19, 2009 20:59:54 GMT -5
Speaking for myself, I don't reject the idea that there are 2 magicians, but I think it is unlikely. And for all of the heat that hockeyguy is getting for deciding to claim, Parzival still hasn't explained why he didn't claim earlier yesterday. That line of questioning cuts both ways.
I don't think Parzival is Cabal. I think he is Vamp. But just because hockeyguy might be wrong about the Cabal case, doesn't mean that he can't be the Magician. Just because hockeyguy may have claimed at a time that can be spun to make people question his claim doesn't mean that he isn't the Magician. This idea that it would have been more "pro-town" for hockeyguy not to claim but to instead select Parzival as a proxy might sound good on paper, but I don't think hockeyguy was going to be high on the scum or vig's Night killing list which would potentially do nothing to diffuse whatever damage a lying false-claiming Magician might be up to.
He counter claimed an apparent liar. And now he's catching heat for it driven largely by the apparent liar. I expect there are quite a few scum vaguely supporting Parzival and attacking Hockeyguy, and I hope the rest of the Town is paying attention.
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 19, 2009 21:26:18 GMT -5
Speaking for myself, I don't reject the idea that there are 2 magicians, but I think it is unlikely. And for all of the heat that hockeyguy is getting for deciding to claim, Parzival still hasn't explained why he didn't claim earlier yesterday. That line of questioning cuts both ways. I don't think Parzival is Cabal. I think he is Vamp. But just because hockeyguy might be wrong about the Cabal case, doesn't mean that he can't be the Magician. Just because hockeyguy may have claimed at a time that can be spun to make people question his claim doesn't mean that he isn't the Magician. This idea that it would have been more "pro-town" for hockeyguy not to claim but to instead select Parzival as a proxy might sound good on paper, but I don't think hockeyguy was going to be high on the scum or vig's Night killing list which would potentially do nothing to diffuse whatever damage a lying false-claiming Magician might be up to. He counter claimed an apparent liar. And now he's catching heat for it driven largely by the apparent liar. I expect there are quite a few scum vaguely supporting Parzival and attacking Hockeyguy, and I hope the rest of the Town is paying attention. I dunno. I just don't think a Vampire would risk sticking his neck out like that, especially since Mr. Blockey just died.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 19, 2009 21:57:17 GMT -5
Scum would never do that, right?
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 20, 2009 0:03:51 GMT -5
Kill one. If he's the magician, kill the other the next day.
Even on the very off-chance that they ARE both magicians, it doesn't matter now, right? Cause the magician role is useless?
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Post by julie on Sept 20, 2009 19:58:38 GMT -5
Kill one. If he's the magician, kill the other the next day. Even on the very off-chance that they ARE both magicians, it doesn't matter now, right? Cause the magician role is useless? Well, it matters in that it's a possibility of two dead Townies. With the rate of the die-off, plus the notification delay, it's a little bewildering how to assess the worth of each individual Town life.
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Post by Gir! on Sept 20, 2009 20:43:51 GMT -5
If he's Undead, the same thing applies. He knew storyteller was dead and it was a guarantee at that point that Mr. Blockey was toast. Actually, him knowing that story was dead doesn't mean anything, unless he's an Undead with a secret Coroner or Seer type power. Idle, the magician role may be useless, but the players themselves aren't. They still count as Townies in the WC count, if they actually are Magicians. It may be worthwhile to consider an investigation of one of them toNight - whichever one lives, if we lych one, or either one of them if we choose someone else (hey, someone else could still make a Boozy-style slip, you know). Right now, I'm leaning to more suspicion against Parzival, but that's mainly from reading other people's arguments for and against the two of them. I've had an almost constant headache (in addition to--and possibly caused by--the mouth pain) since Wednesday and have been having trouble concentrating too much, and therefore spending my time frittering away with mindless distracting Facebook apps instead of analyzing. Sorry guys. I will try again tomorrow.
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Post by julie on Sept 20, 2009 21:12:35 GMT -5
If he's Undead, the same thing applies. He knew storyteller was dead and it was a guarantee at that point that Mr. Blockey was toast. Actually, him knowing that story was dead doesn't mean anything, unless he's an Undead with a secret Coroner or Seer type power. Gosh DARN IT. I missed that. Sorry.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 21, 2009 14:43:41 GMT -5
Kill one. If he's the magician, kill the other the next day. Even on the very off-chance that they ARE both magicians, it doesn't matter now, right? Cause the magician role is useless? Well, it matters in that it's a possibility of two dead Townies. With the rate of the die-off, plus the notification delay, it's a little bewildering how to assess the worth of each individual Town life. As I said, though, I highly down there are two pro-Town magicians that are exactly the same (or even slightly different). I could be wrong, though. My guess would be, however, that one is pro Town and the other is either a baddie or a PFK of some sort.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 21, 2009 14:44:55 GMT -5
doubt*
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Post by Natlaw on Sept 21, 2009 15:18:39 GMT -5
Special Ed (6): Meeko [43-141+219], storyteller [75-359], FlyingCow [77-169+332], Sister Coyote [80-256+363], bufftabby [96-247], Mister Blockey [101], pedescribe [197-197], hockeyguy [301], Cookies [310]. Meeko (3): Special Ed [34], Boozy Squid [46-113], FlyingCow [77-169+332], Sister Coyote [80-256], bufftabby [96-247], Cookies [310]. storyteller (2): Meeko [135], pedescribe [197]. pedescribe (2): Meeko [198], Cookies [310]. Left out the Boozahol votes and two votes by bufftabby for peekercpa and myself, since no death info on us (yet). Added colors: Wolf, Cabal, Undead, Probable Town. I consider pedescribe probably Town since 1) no counter claim, 2) Blockey 'agreed' with his result (to be confirmed on his side reveal). For the rest I don't get too much out of it - as noted their argument was Wolves infighting and probably staged. With the Boozy bandwagon basically unstoppable, I could see some of the later voters as a Wolf trying to get a harmless (but still a vote) on a fellow scum. But it is not much of a smoking gun. One of them is hockeyguy which brings me back to the Magicians. Motivation for hockeyguy to claim: 1) Outs a (likely) false claim (town++) 2) Makes him unlikely to be targeted for kill since he can redirect it (scum+) although if Parzival turns up town, it won't save him from the lynch (scum-) Motivation for Parzival to claim: 1) Power used up, so no need to draw fire anymore (town+). 2) But then it also means he could try to draw another kill, since as vanilla he's more expendable (town-) 3) Provide information that killer special ed (but ed already dead) failed to kill bufftabby - could be Vampire (town++), but also be Vicar attacked by a Vampire or self-protected Witch. If the latter, a second Witch might have needed to claim to stop a lynch (scum++). The information would be lost if he got targeted the next Night - he could have tried to breadcrumb it, although that would have been difficult without doing it suspiciously. And if bufftabby is a Witch, she could have been protected again. I'm gonna Vote: Parzival as I don't think a scum hockeyguy would have counter-claimed. The logical step is to lynch one of them and if that one turns up town, lynch the other. They could both be scum but that no reason to lynch one of them (and not unconditionally trusting the other).
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Post by Natlaw on Sept 21, 2009 15:20:21 GMT -5
My guess would be, however, that one is pro Town and the other is either a baddie or a PFK of some sort. Of which PFK are you thinking exactly - as I understand it all win conditions are mutually exclusive, so everyone is 'playing for keeps'?
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Post by Nanook on Sept 21, 2009 16:07:36 GMT -5
Those of you in/following the gasterd game know my PC blew out last week and I just got it back working. Sorry for being quiet the last few days.
Natlaw that's interesting analysis. I don't personally dismiss out of hand the possibility of both being a Magician though. It's unlikely yes, but not completely out of the question. Even so, I think voting for the one more likely to be Scum is the best choice. Based on all the analysis, combined with the fact that Parz specificied someone to be killed basically in Bufftabby, I'm going that way with my vote.
Vote: Parzival
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Post by Sister Coyote on Sept 21, 2009 17:05:33 GMT -5
Natlaw, as I understand it, each group wins together; a PFK would have a wincon that didn't mesh with any group.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 21, 2009 17:13:57 GMT -5
What Sister Coyote said. I wouldn't surprise me if there one or two surprises or hidden things in this game, such as a role that won by itself (like a serial killer type), or even if it achieves a certain goal (more dangerous) or even just is like a survivor-type who needs to be alive at the end of game (less dangerous).
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Post by Nanook on Sept 21, 2009 18:53:22 GMT -5
There is almost 0 chance of a PFK type role above and beyond what the list specifies(since a Vamp with no living necros would be basically a PFK SK). Pleo has made it clear on plenty of occasions that he much, MUCH prefers open set ups. Putting in a PFK role, in a game with an open set up, without telling anyone is Gastard. And Pleo would not do that.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 21, 2009 19:59:02 GMT -5
There is almost 0 chance of a PFK type role above and beyond what the list specifies(since a Vamp with no living necros would be basically a PFK SK). Pleo has made it clear on plenty of occasions that he much, MUCH prefers open set ups. Putting in a PFK role, in a game with an open set up, without telling anyone is Gastard. And Pleo would not do that. You sound pretty sure of yourself. Yet when I ran a game and had an open set up, I put in a secret role, yet I didn't consider it a gastard game. But it's all moot because my original point and opinion remains the same: I believe one may be pro-Town and the other is scum in any sense of the word.
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Post by Gir! on Sept 21, 2009 20:30:19 GMT -5
Okay, I've reread a good chunk of hockeyguy and Parzival's posts, and have decided that, if one (but not both) of them is a Magician, it's more likely to be hockeyguy. (I confess I haven't reread all of their post, because my head still hurts.) First off, rereading hockeyguy's posts, he made a big deal of pushing for Parzival to claim Magician, to the point of voting him for it (in this post: www.idlemafia.com/index.cgi?board=game16&action=display&thread=1095#54304 which was his last post of Day 2, Parzival did claim a few hours after this post, but hockeyguy didn't post again on Day 2). If hockeyguy is actually a Magician, then it makes sense for him to get Parzival to claim before calling him out, because if hockeyguy had said "The only role that you could be is Magician and since I'm the Magician, you must be lying" then a scummy Parzival could have tried to explain off the knowledge in some other way. On Day 3, hockeyguy's first post was a comment on the Revelation of the Dead, but his second was calling out Parzival, so there was no weird delay of his claim (which there was in Parzival's--he didn't reveal his knowledge of Ed's kill attempt until his 6th Day 2 post). On top of that, rereading Parzival's Day 1 posts about Boozy, they make no sense. He suggests leaving Boozy for the Vig (which is not totally out of whack) and looking at other people instead of just settling for the obvious target, but he never suggests another possibility. Then later, he says: His next post is to vote for Boozy. It's nearly a full calendar day later, and he did say he wasn't going to have a lot of time, but he completely dropped the the concept of looking for other possible targets, not even to drop in a line that since he hadn't had the time to find anyone, he'd go ahead with the sure thing. It feels fishy to have someone suggest more than once to look beyond the obvious target without even making a token effort to do so themselves. Here's the 3 Parzival posts in question: www.idlemafia.com/index.cgi?board=game16&action=display&thread=1078#53508www.idlemafia.com/index.cgi?board=game16&action=display&thread=1078#53639www.idlemafia.com/index.cgi?board=game16&action=display&thread=1078#53697I will vote Parzival, since I have nothing against voting for the obvious person. I think Magician is not likely to be a doubled role in the game and, like I said, hockeyguy seems more genuine.
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 21, 2009 21:06:42 GMT -5
There is almost 0 chance of a PFK type role above and beyond what the list specifies(since a Vamp with no living necros would be basically a PFK SK). Pleo has made it clear on plenty of occasions that he much, MUCH prefers open set ups. Putting in a PFK role, in a game with an open set up, without telling anyone is Gastard. And Pleo would not do that. You sound pretty sure of yourself. Yet when I ran a game and had an open set up, I put in a secret role, yet I didn't consider it a gastard game. But it's all moot because my original point and opinion remains the same: I believe one may be pro-Town and the other is scum in any sense of the word. Which one was this?
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 21, 2009 21:10:09 GMT -5
P.S. I'm running the next game on the dope: Screamers!
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 21, 2009 21:10:34 GMT -5
Along with Mahaloth.
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 21, 2009 21:10:52 GMT -5
Sorry for the largely contentless triple post.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 21, 2009 21:43:20 GMT -5
You sound pretty sure of yourself. Yet when I ran a game and had an open set up, I put in a secret role, yet I didn't consider it a gastard game. But it's all moot because my original point and opinion remains the same: I believe one may be pro-Town and the other is scum in any sense of the word. Which one was this? The Asylum Lane one... ..it also gave birth to the long running in-joke of the Chia Bingo Manager (since that's the role it was).
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Post by julie on Sept 21, 2009 21:46:48 GMT -5
I want to apologize to everyone for the way I'm playing. I seem to have left my attention span in my other pants. And then possibly burned them.
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Post by Parzival on Sept 22, 2009 11:44:26 GMT -5
Discussion really seems to have been killed here, hasn't it?
The more I think about it and look at it from an outside perspective, the less likely it seems that hockeyguy is town. That's good, because I know you'll lynch him regardless of what he says, and I think this won't be two mislynches. The Coroner will have to decide whether to claim tomorrow morning; I'd be in favor of it if we still have one around. Presumably if hockeyguy is scum he's a Wolf, and thus might try to take 'credit' for a kill this Night, accusing some other person of attacking him.
The argument that I could be vamp actually does make sense from an outside view, and so I think it could actually be a good motive for the Wolves. Having failed to kill me, maybe they think I am a Vampire and need to be lynched. Especially since bufftabby died last night (which would be natural for me to do as a vamp after my claim, trusting that she's a role I could kill). That makes me happy enough with my own lynch that I'll :
Vote: Parzival
(with a free ballot box stuffed with hockeyguy votes as a parting gift).
My previously suspicious person was CatInaSuit, who's now dead. (As an aside, my motivation for sharing the info about Ed was the discussion of crosskills. I didn't mention it earlier as I was waiting for bufftabby to post in the thread.)
CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies brought up the vampire idea, which could mean she's scum trying to push that angle. I feel a little like she's been trying to find good reasons to get people voting for me today. But she also could have come up with those on her own, based on the evidence. She also accused me of building a case against hockeyguy, when I was one of the only people originally arguing for him being town.
Sister Coyote dropped a vote without explaining. I don't know if a false-claiming Hockeyguy was trying to have another day of stifled discussion and quick voting, but such a move is anti-town at least. (There may be others who dropped in quick votes later, she was the first to do it without any reason of her own.)
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Post by NAF1138 on Sept 22, 2009 12:13:07 GMT -5
Okay, I've reread a good chunk of hockeyguy and Parzival's posts, and have decided that, if one (but not both) of them is a Magician, it's more likely to be hockeyguy. (I confess I haven't reread all of their post, because my head still hurts.) First off, rereading hockeyguy's posts, he made a big deal of pushing for Parzival to claim Magician, to the point of voting him for it (in this post: www.idlemafia.com/index.cgi?board=game16&action=display&thread=1095#54304 which was his last post of Day 2, Parzival did claim a few hours after this post, but hockeyguy didn't post again on Day 2). If hockeyguy is actually a Magician, then it makes sense for him to get Parzival to claim before calling him out, because if hockeyguy had said "The only role that you could be is Magician and since I'm the Magician, you must be lying" then a scummy Parzival could have tried to explain off the knowledge in some other way. Nice find Kat. Unvote: Hockeyguy
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