Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Aug 23, 2009 12:33:25 GMT -5
Any of us who have modded a set-up have probably used JSexton's famed pointing system. It's convenient, and it allows direct comparisons much more easily than normal. But...is it entirely accurate? The system was made a while ago, and was admittedly a work in progress. I think perhaps that it needs to be tweaked a little. For reference, here's the original: Sure. The basic idea is to assign points for each role, with vanilla townies forming a baseline of 1 point each. The goal is to end up within, say 2 or 3 points of each other for town and scum. Keep in mind that this is still pretty subjective, and is open to debate about the exact pointing. Cop: 4 Doc: 3 Vig: 2.5 Compulsory Vig: 1.5 (some say less. Heck, some say it's worse than vanilla town) Roleblocker: 2 Back-Up Cop: 2.5 Back-Up Doc: 2 Watcher: 2 Tracker: 2 1 Shot Vig: 2 self-confirming townie: 2 2 man masonry: 2 points each 3 man masonry: 2.5 points each 4 man masonry: 3 points each Vanilla Townie: 1 You can have roles that are worth less than a townie nothing or even negative, such as: Miller: .5 (hey, at least he can vote!) Self-ending townie (dies automatically given a certain threshold): 0 Voteless Townie: -1 (because he still counts toward the lynch number) Scum Basic Mafia: 4.5 Godfather: 7 Investigator: 6 Toughguy (bonus nightkill): 7 Daykiller (bonus daykill): 7.5 Roleblocker: 6.5 Redirector: 7 Serial Killer: I actually consider the SK a vanilla mafioso for purposes of game balance, with added points for abilities like being untargetable, investigating as innocents, etc. After looking at certain interactions (like cop+doc) I will add bonus points for the town. The scum might also have certain synergies, like getting a bonus point of they have both a role investigator AND a redirector. For unusual roles (like the Bingo manager), you just need to think about what the actual impact on the game will be, and equate it to an existing role. Finally, how does the game start? Day start generally favors the town: +1 to town Cop Head Start (Night start with use of all abilities but no Kills allowed: +2 to town Normal Night start: 0 First of all, there are some new roles that need to be added in, because they've become so commonplace. I'd say (rough estimates): Town Politician: 1.5 usually useless, except when they can get scum to vote for scum unwillingly. Given that that requires knowing multiple scum or getting lucky, that's not easy Scum Politican: 8.5 Because he knows who his fellow scum are, this is quite powerful, able to swing close votes on a whim. Also, it allows the scum to win a day earlier Inventor (clueless): X/4, where X is the point total of his inventions. A clueless inventor does not know what his inventions do. As such, he is basically useless (usually), since the inventions will frequently do the wrong things/target the wrong people. Inventor (knowledgable): X, where X is the point total of his inventions. Because he knows what he can do, he can use his powers intelligently. Town Scotsman (unconfirmed on death): .5 This player gains half a mislynch for the town if killed during the night, but loses a mislynch for the town if lynched, since town will frequently hit him again the next day. That's a net negative overall, I'd say. Town Scotsman (confirmed on death): 3 This is almost like a oneshot doc, but also a self-confirming town. Scum Scotsman: 5 These guys are only slightly better than regular scum, because they will almost always be lynched twice in a row if they're lynched once and survive (or get killed during the night and survive). Town Doublevoter: 1.5 It seems like this should be 2, but a townie is more than just his vote. The primary ability of the vanilla town is his ability to expound, to explore and convince, to make cases. Also, their expendablility. None of that is added onto a doublevoter, as such, they are barely better than normal vanillas. Paranoid Doc: 3 Yes, the doctor loses the synergy with the cop, but he gains the investigative like abilities of the rolelblocker. Plus, he's twice as likely to be useful. I'd say it's a wash (but don't add the doc + cop synergy if you use this!) Survivor: 0 This person lacks many of the qualities that make VTs useful. Plus, he has incentive to sell out the town. But his biggest motivations are to act townie. I'd say no pull either way. Secondly, I would suggest that some of the numbers already provided are off. Firstly, the roleblocker is definitely worth more than 2 if he can block the scum's kill. The blocker is a sort of doctor and a sort of cop, because if he blocks someone, and there's no kill, that suggests that the target did the kill. Plus, you have to factor in the other scum power roles. Granted, he can hit town power roles, but that only really comes into play when there's a bunch. If there's only 4/16 power roles in a game, then the blocker isn't likely to hit any. I'd say this should be 3, 2.5 if it's a no-vanilla game. Second, the Godfather is less powerful, I think, than 7. Yes, there's always the possibility of him being falsley confirmed as town by a investigator and sealing the game for scum. But really, how often does that happen? It is a rare event that the investigator a) investigates the godfather and b) lives to tell the town and c) dies to confirm he was a town investigator. And even then, someone always brings up the possibility of a Godfather sooner or later. I'd say it should be more like 6. Third, I disagree with the idea that the SK is usually anti-town. He is, in fact, anti-both, and needs to be pointed as such. However, he's more threatening to the scum, because a single scum is worth more than a single town. So I'd say -3 to town, -5 to scum. Then factor in whatever else he had. Anyway, that's what I think. Other thoughts?
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Aug 23, 2009 17:49:28 GMT -5
What do you mean by "point total of inventions" for a knowledgeable inventor? I'm not sure I understand.
Clearly since they're one shots, they're not worth what a full role would be, but since they also get to choose when to use them, they are more powerful one-shots than what a normal one shot would be like. (For example, an inventor with a one shot vig is stronger than a one-shot vig.)
I think the inventor is pretty much a role that the strength is determined by the usefulness of the individual powers on average, with a slight boost because he can choose when to use them. But if he doesn't have at least 8 shots, I'd say that weakens him. If he has four or less, he's weakened considerably. If he has more than 8, that makes him overall even stronger, possibly at or greater than a true cop.
Really, the usefulness of a knowledgeable inventor is so situation specific that you pretty much need to figure it in as one of the last roles for balance, because the inventor can't be thought of in a bubble. In a very power-role intensive game, the inventor becomes worth less. In a game without many power-roles, the inventor becomes more powerful. There's just way too many factors that affect the true usefulness.
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Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Aug 24, 2009 1:04:04 GMT -5
You feel that a scum politician is worth more than a scum daykiller or bonus night kill? True the politician can swing a vote... but the bonus night kill would potentially end the game in half the time as a game where one didn't exist.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 24, 2009 9:41:23 GMT -5
Hey, now this I could talk about all day. First, though, I think the thing about JSexton's post that keeps getting dropped, ignored, or forgotten is this: After looking at certain interactions (like cop+doc) I will add bonus points for the town. The scum might also have certain synergies, like getting a bonus point of they have both a role investigator AND a redirector. When games have been imbalanced, in my view, it is generally because the moderator balanced for each role individually but did not properly account for the ways in which the specific roles interact. It's this step that I think is the most critical, and the most frequently overlooked. There is no way that a Scum Politician is worth 8.5 points - that's more than a Scum with a bonus Nightkill! Swinging close votes on a whim is not really all that useful. Say NAF (Town) and Roosh (Scum) are tied, but the influence of an apparent Politician swings the vote to NAF and NAF dies, and is revealed Town. Do you really think Roosh will survive indefinitely? The Town will ask - why would a vote-charger swing a vote to NAF unless Roosh is Scum? They will lynch Roosh on general principles nine times out of ten, and so all the Politician really accomplished was to delay Roosh's death a bit. This is useful, but not nearly as powerful as a bonus Night kill, which can generally short the Town a mislynch and might be able to take out a power role in the process. I'd point it at 5.5. I'm not sure this kind of role is common enough, or homogenous enough, to point it fairly. Case by case. I don't think that bad play on the part of the Town equates to a low-point role. If the Town mislynches our hypothetical Scotsman after (s)he survives a Night kill, that's on them, not on the role. In such a case, any Town Vig should claim and say, " I didn't kill him, so the Scum most likely did; ergo, he's probably not Scum." It's true that an overeager Town can turn any advantage into a disadvantage by poor play - we managed to lose LOST Mafia specifically because we were given a huge advantage and misplayed it. That doesn't mean that the low number of Scum in that game should be pointed as a Scum advantage. I'd go with 1.5 points for a non-confirming Scotsman. OK, but a regular old multiple shot Doc points at 3. There is no way a Scotsman, who can "protect" only himself and even then only once, is worth as much as someone who can literally clinch the game with savvy choices. How about 2 points, maybe 2.5? Surviving a lynch is basically worth half a mislynch, since it buys an extra Night kill opportunity, right? Say the game starts at 12-4, and the Town lynches Scum Scotsman Roosh Day One (12-3). That Night, the Scum kill (11-3). The next Morning, Roosh rises (11-4), and the Town lynches him again (11-3). Scum kill that Night (10-3). So in game-state terms, the Scum have gotten an extra Night kill. I don't think you can give this role quite as many points as a pure extra Night kill, because a re-risen Roosh could hypothetically be dealt with by a Vig, or with constant role-blocking, or what have you, but it's worth at least 6.5. Agreed. Sorry, pede, not meaning to argue with everything you say (well, I am, but all in fun, right), but I disagree here as well. The Doctor doesn't just lose synergy with the Cop; (s)he typically loses the ability to self-protect, as well. I'd subtract half a point for this alone. Agreed. Strongly disagree! It's not just the possibility of the Godfather being investigated; it's the fact that the existence of a Godfather casts a shadow over every single result an investigator gets. Without a Godfather, a Detective who lives until Day Five and finds four Vanilla Townies can just about clinch the game. All of his/her targets are now safe from lynching for the entire game. With a Godfather, all of them remain viable lynch targets. Actually, though, one interesting point is that once a Godfather is found and killed, it retroactively confirms any outstanding VT results obtained by a Detective. Thus it may be that the Scum may benefit somewhat in a situation where there is no Godfather, but the Town believes that there is or might be. Nonetheless, the value of a Godfather cannot be overstated. (S)he is the one role that cannot be outed by a Detective, and thus the one role that can win the game even if the Detective is incredibly lucky and nails every Scum player. Disagree, again. Sorry. He's not more threatening to the Scum, unless he is for some reason specifically motivated to kill Scum AND very good at finding them. Most Serial Killers are going to kill more or less at random, which means they will kill more Town than Scum. They will also be especially concerned with finding and killing any investigative role, to avoid being found themselves. In a typical game an SK will kill at least twice as many Town as Scum, maybe even more, especially if the Scum seem to be losing and the SK needs to prolong the game. I agree with the pointing proposed by JSexton.
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Post by Hawkmod on Aug 24, 2009 11:04:06 GMT -5
I briefly tried to do some probability based ranking system, but there were too many variable even in the simplest of cases. I still think there is a better way, since the numbers used are pretty arbitrary. (Why is a cop 4 times as valuable as a townie and not 3.78 times) But this is what we got for now, so lets work with it.
I'd say (rough estimates):
I'd probably go 2. Anything that helps town control the vote is a very good thing. Can be useful reigning in renegade townies, and can delay scum victory. In rare situations it can win the game singlehandedly (scum believe they have the numbers to reveal themselves and vote for a confirmed townie, but it turns out they didn't.)
Useful, but not that useful. Scum can usually win close votes without resorting to such tactics. Maybe 6.5?
Too variable for a set total.
Too variable for a set total.
I'm a little confused on this. Why would townies lynch him the next day, especially if they knew it was the scum kill attempt? You have the potential for a pretty confirmed townie in here, or at least a confirmed not scum. I'd go closer to 2/2.5
Confirmed townies are huge, and the biggest undervaluing of the Jsexson numbers. I'll go more into this later, but I'd say 4 (3 for confirmed towniness and 1 for for one time self kill protection). I'm tempted to go even higher, scotsmen are a pain to kill.
Even if you just force the town to use 2 lynches that is still worth more than the extra half a point. And often you can get more value out of this than that. I'd put it at 6.
Concur, though there is added value late in the game if the scum don't know they exist. Similar to the politician there are circumstances in which they can flat out win the game.
Not sure what this does.
A survivor doesn't really have incentive or means to sell out town. It isn't like he can communicate with the scum. He does however have strong motivations to help the town when possible. A basic survivor has no real ability to aid town though, so I'd be comfortable at 0. A survivor with powers however, can end up being a significantly pro-town role depending on what sort of powers.
Roleblockers should be at least as high ranked as doctors. They have the same odds of blocking a kill, but the roleblocker gives the added information of who the killer was. The roleblocker is one of the best end game roles out there. With a doc you are always trying to outguess the scum, but with a roleblocker you don't need to. Figure out who the last killer is, or often times who it isn't, and you win the game.
I think 6 is fair and basically agree with your reasoning. It is a nice bonus, but it doesn't come up all that much. It can often in fact be a detriment to town. A dead godfather confirms all investigations, while with no godfather you never quite know.
Random kills are net neutral. Maybe this should be my new mantra. They aren't pro-town because scum are more valuable, and they certainly aren't, as often argued, pro-town because townies have more numbers. In a balanced game these two things ya know balance.
Now a serial killer's kills aren't precisely random. Let's say you know Night 1 player A is definitely pro-town and player B is definitely pro-scum and that neither of these players are likely to be lynched or night-killed in the near future. As a serial killer which would you take out. Almost certainly player B, since you might need to claim a vig type role later, and taking out scum is useful evidence to show your pro-towniness. There isn't really incentive to prove your worth to scum, because there is no way to communicate with scum.
This generally holds for any third party role. There is usually more incentive to act townie than scum, so I put the base third party at +1 town. Townies usually have more protection against SKs than scum, so you could move it to 1.5 if there are multiple protective roles for the town and none for the scum. 4.5 against town is absolutely ridiculous.
The biggest problem scum generally have is that there are too many confirmed townies and the end of the game. If there are more confirmed townies than scum you can't lose. Oftentimes in these games even the most brilliant scum lies get outed, not because townies out smarted them, but rather a simple process of elimination. Jsexson vaguely takes this into account by upping the value masons depending on frequency, but the big problem is that masons aren't the only confirmable roles. There are other roles that should never get lynched, like the Scotsman mentioned above. Further there are many roles that are semi-confirmable. If you claim doctor in an open game, and town knows there is a doctor and it is pro-town, well you are pretty much confirmed right there. Sure scum could counter-claim but it is rarely in there advantage to go for a 1-1 trade. Even in a closed game, there is likely to be a doctor, so such a claim would give you some level of confirmation. There are also roles that can be confirmed if used right. If you block a scum kill, you are mostly confirmed as pro-twon
So I'd scrap the mason numbers and make every fully confirmable role +3, every semi-comfirmable role +2, and every vaguely confirmable role +1 to townies in addition to other powers.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Aug 24, 2009 13:30:19 GMT -5
I'm a little confused on this. Why would townies lynch him the next day, especially if they knew it was the scum kill attempt? You have the potential for a pretty confirmed townie in here, or at least a confirmed not scum. I'd go closer to 2/2.5 I think he's talking about if the town tries to lynch him the first day and the scotsman survives the lynch, the town will try to off him again without some way of confirming that he's town. This is a highly anti-town mechanism and is something I brought up in SMB as to why I took issue with Ed's claim of that type of role (false cover claim for a survivor) and later Sinjin's claim of it (true claim of power, but false claim of alignment). Contrast this to open setup scotsman/first death confirmation scotsmen, who are a nice role for town to have. Their intial death confirms them. Now, night kill of non-confirming town scotsman is interesting. If the mod confirms that they were killed but came back, that means that some killing power found them worth killing, and that killing power was unlikely to be town. (If a vig shooting, the vig might just claim the attempt.) However, if an SK could be in the game, even the survived kill portends little. And if the mod doesn't even mention the failed kill, the town gets no additional information anyway. So I would put a nonconfirming town scotsmen at 1.5 at best. They can be a boon to town if they suck up a kill that would otherwise hit another townie, but they are a liability to town if they absorb a lynch or a vig hit without being able to be confirmed. They truly only become useful if a detective happens to confirm them. I suppose if the mod announces a survived kill, they could be bumped to 2.0 just for the extra knowledge the survived kill can give town, but I still find the ability to survive a town-motivated kill (whether vig or lynch) without confirmation a huge negative to town that cancels pretty much any usefulness the power gives them. So I would be tempted to consider them no better than vanilla. But for me its moot, because I can't see ever using them in any game I design that isn't bastard. Because I consider the role itself an inherently bastard role. Though, as I mentioned in one of the spoiler boards for a game a while back, combining such a role with a miller would be a truly evil role.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Aug 24, 2009 20:31:58 GMT -5
IThe biggest problem scum generally have is that there are too many confirmed townies and the end of the game. If there are more confirmed townies than scum you can't lose. Oftentimes in these games even the most brilliant scum lies get outed, not because townies out smarted them, but rather a simple process of elimination. Jsexson vaguely takes this into account by upping the value masons depending on frequency, but the big problem is that masons aren't the only confirmable roles. There are other roles that should never get lynched, like the Scotsman mentioned above. Further there are many roles that are semi-confirmable. If you claim doctor in an open game, and town knows there is a doctor and it is pro-town, well you are pretty much confirmed right there. Sure scum could counter-claim but it is rarely in there advantage to go for a 1-1 trade. Even in a closed game, there is likely to be a doctor, so such a claim would give you some level of confirmation. There are also roles that can be confirmed if used right. If you block a scum kill, you are mostly confirmed as pro-twon So I'd scrap the mason numbers and make every fully confirmable role +3, every semi-comfirmable role +2, and every vaguely confirmable role +1 to townies in addition to other powers. I really like this system. This also helps with balancing mass claim-type situations, something that needs to be taken into effect. While I'm here, I feel I should post your checklist, since it's a good review of a setup that's been pointed properly:
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Aug 24, 2009 20:34:56 GMT -5
OK, but a regular old multiple shot Doc points at 3. There is no way a Scotsman, who can "protect" only himself and even then only once, is worth as much as someone who can literally clinch the game with savvy choices. How about 2 points, maybe 2.5? I disagree with this part. On average, a doctor's only going to block a kill once, maybe twice. A doctor only needs to block one to swing the game, if he times it right. A oneshot doc that always succeeds is about as powerful as an ordinary doctor.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Aug 26, 2009 19:13:16 GMT -5
With some PFK roles, including the Serial Killer, their primary interest is keeping the game close until the end so that they can survive. This makes them start out slightly pro-Town, but usually by the mid to end-game, they're more pro-scum or neutral than not.
The Serial Killer, especially, will end up being way more anti-Town by then. As the confirmed townies pile up, they need to knock them (or the investigator) off just as much as the scum do. Perhaps the only part that's not as strongly for the scum is that there's no one to protect them in a lynch situation.
I don't think they should be scored as a full regular goon, but leaving them close to neutral is a mistake. I'd put them around -3 for the town, depending on other factors.
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