Chucara
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Post by Chucara on Nov 5, 2008 17:08:56 GMT -5
What's the most tedious parts of hosting a game? Counting the votes?
Reason I'm asking is that I'm completely taken with Mafia, and I'm considering tinkering with a modification for the SMF(forum) software to ease the process a little.
While it is possible to make the game completely automatic, I don't think that's necessarily a good idea.
What I had planned so far was really an option to cast votes through a system so that they'll still show up in the forums, but at the same time, everyone can always have an up-to-date view of the votes.
Does anyone else have any ideas on how to automize some of the tasks? Night actions could also be handled better, I think, but I wanted to hear from someone more experienced..
Mods and players alike - all suggestions are welcomed.
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Post by KidVermicious on Nov 5, 2008 17:12:46 GMT -5
I've thought it might be nice to have a hack that heads each page with a vote count, and has a series of radio buttons next to player names for voting. The game moderator would probably have to modify it each Day to remove the names of dead players.
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Chucara
Borogrove
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Post by Chucara on Nov 5, 2008 17:42:40 GMT -5
KidV: Well, dead players could also be tracked by the software, but duely noted.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 5, 2008 18:12:26 GMT -5
Reason I'm asking is that I'm completely taken with Mafia We should try to get some other UV'ers over here. For example, this seems like something that might be right up Owl's alley.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 5, 2008 18:45:03 GMT -5
Reason I'm asking is that I'm completely taken with Mafia, First off, awesome. Stick around! Secondly, double awesome. Things I would like to see as a mod. 1) Automated vote counts. Vote counting sucks and is so prone to human error...you wouldn't believe. I am told that past mods have written scripts to take care of this, but I am not quite that capable. 2) Automated posting of vote counts. The only thing more tedious than counting the votes is formating and posting said count. 3) Automated closing of threads set to the board clock. So no one actually has to be around at the end of the Day. 4) Automated closing of threads at a particular vote threshold, same reason as 3. 5) Auto updating of current player listings, with a list of dead players and when they died. How many of these things are actually possible? I have no clue. But this is my own personal wish list.
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Post by KidVermicious on Nov 5, 2008 20:22:09 GMT -5
KidV: Well, dead players could also be tracked by the software, but duely noted. I can see that with the lynched player, but how is the software to know who has been NK'd unless you tell it? Ok, maybe you've got your killing players recognized by the board, and they get to tell the software who they're killing themselves, but wouldn't you have to rewrite that for every game?
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Chucara
Borogrove
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Post by Chucara on Nov 6, 2008 10:02:03 GMT -5
KidV: Well, you'd either have to register the kills manually, or program the script to receive night actions.
And yes, one of the major problems with automating Mafia is that every game setup is different. But even this task is not overwhelming.
NAF: All of what you mention is possible. Some easily, others take a little effort.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 6, 2008 17:45:47 GMT -5
Being somewhat of a detailed-oriented control-freak when it comes to running games, automated systems wouldn't be that useful for me. I just use copious notes and a type of double-entry book-keeping for the vote counts.
But that's not for everyone. Anything that encourages more people to run and play Mafia is a good thing.
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Chucara
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Post by Chucara on Nov 6, 2008 18:25:21 GMT -5
Pleonast: When you say notes and vote count, are you speaking as a player?
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 6, 2008 18:49:42 GMT -5
No, as the mod. For example, see my vote counts: Conspiracy Votes, Conspiracy 2 Votes. I keep track of the player voting or unvoting, the post they do it in, and of course the vote receiver. I keep track of which players have not voted. This allows me to easily find which votes I've missed. And lets players to see the full vote history very nicely. I guess if I would make a recommendation, I'd prefer vote counts like mine. For notes I keep while modding: I can't find where I kept the Conspiracy notes, but here are the Conspiracy 2. Basically, each Day and Night, I start a thread for recording all player PMs and a list of orders plus the resolution of powers. And a check on the win condition. Even though my games have complex rules, once I have it set up and running (the first Day and Night are always hectic), I can run the game with little work. As a player, I like to vote analysis. I expect the mod to publish final, accurate voting lists. If not, I have to do it myself. So any automation that makes it easier for the mod to publish voting lists is good. I really only need the final count, but I'm sure other players like to look at the movement too. I rarely keep notes beyond that my vote calculations.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 6, 2008 19:48:36 GMT -5
No, as the mod. For example, see my vote counts: Conspiracy Votes, Conspiracy 2 Votes. I keep track of the player voting or unvoting, the post they do it in, and of course the vote receiver. I keep track of which players have not voted. This allows me to easily find which votes I've missed. And lets players to see the full vote history very nicely. I guess if I would make a recommendation, I'd prefer vote counts like mine. For notes I keep while modding: I can't find where I kept the Conspiracy notes, but here are the Conspiracy 2. Basically, each Day and Night, I start a thread for recording all player PMs and a list of orders plus the resolution of powers. And a check on the win condition. Even though my games have complex rules, once I have it set up and running (the first Day and Night are always hectic), I can run the game with little work. As a player, I like to vote analysis. I expect the mod to publish final, accurate voting lists. If not, I have to do it myself. So any automation that makes it easier for the mod to publish voting lists is good. I really only need the final count, but I'm sure other players like to look at the movement too. I rarely keep notes beyond that my vote calculations. See, and as a mod I don't necessarily want to give that information to the players. If players want that stuff they should have to do the research themselves. When I do by hand votecounts I typically keep track of everything you do Pleo, but I usually only publish the number of votes and who did the voting.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Nov 6, 2008 22:03:59 GMT -5
Just FTR, I don't think this would work with my Borda count method. So I wouldn't have need of this particular feature.
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Chucara
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Post by Chucara on Nov 7, 2008 6:40:39 GMT -5
Well, just because the script will count the votes doesn't mean it'll have to show everything to players. It'd be an option for the mod en enable or disable. I can certainly understand that mods still want full control of the game, and everything in this script should be optional for the mod. Boiled down to the most basic idea, I assumed vote counting could be a tedious task for mods to do. If players were to enter votes into the system, this would be eliminated. Actually posting the updated counts could be done automatically at the end of the day. The current count during the middle of a day could be done in two ways: The mod posting a vote count semi-manually, just like we know now, but with computer generated counts. Or any time a player asks for them, if the mod has this setting enabled. Pedescribe: I don't know what the Borda vote count is
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 7, 2008 11:12:20 GMT -5
See, and as a mod I don't necessarily want to give that information to the players. If players want that stuff they should have to do the research themselves. When I do by hand votecounts I typically keep track of everything you do Pleo, but I usually only publish the number of votes and who did the voting. Interesting. Since the voting information is public, I see no reason not to provide it to the players. I think we need to encourage better play, and giving an impartial complete vote count is part of that.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 7, 2008 11:26:41 GMT -5
I think we need to encourage better play, and giving an impartial complete vote count is part of that. I agree with you on the need to encourage better play. I think we are thinking about the same problems, but are coming up with opposite solutions. My feeling is that the less information you spoon feed the players the more it forces them to actually work a little bit for what they need. Therefore we have less lazy players who are more invested in the game because they had to work to compile data themselves. Also, I consider data mining to be a fundemantal part of the game, and if the mods just hand that over it is removing a large element of gameplay. You seem to be coming from the perspective of giving them more information so they can make use of it more readily and start the analysis right away. And if they have the information they might be more inclined to do more in depth analysis and not just say "fuck it, I don't really need that info." And I do get that. Heck, you may even be right, I am not sure. So, I guess I would like what is developed to be flexible enough that the mod can decide how much info to give to the players.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 7, 2008 12:22:15 GMT -5
I see what you mean.
I think as long as any vote counting system is flexible enough to accommodate different mod philosophies, things should be good.
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Chucara
Borogrove
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Post by Chucara on Nov 11, 2008 17:41:21 GMT -5
Here are the features I've agreed with myself on so far:
There will be a single thread for each day/night. In this thread, several different types of posts exist: - Talk (normal posts from players) - Comments (spoilered and unspoilered) - Votes (A vote is tagged onto a "Talk", but shown seperately) - Notes (A feature similar to wikipedia. Basically one or more posts that all players can edit. A post is made for each edit as to have a history/log) - Special group posts (Scum, mason etc.)
Obviously, only spoilered users are able to see all types of posts. The idea is that everything will be in a single timeline so that it integrates slightly better, and should be more interesting to follow.
Furthermore, there will be an automated voting system: - Players vote for each other by selecting a vote option somewhere in the manu. At any given point the system knows the most recent vote count. It is up to the moderator to decide how often this is disclosed to players, if at all. - End of day can be handled by the script - Ending times are also handled. Mod/script determines ending time in local timezone, system makes sure players can see ending times in their time zone. Possibility for notification/warnings if players decide (this feature is uncertain).
Right now, I'm pondering whether this is easier to implement from the ground up (will cost features as compared to mature forum software), or I should try to force it on / integrate with Simple Machines Forum.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Nov 11, 2008 23:45:12 GMT -5
Pedescribe: I don't know what the Borda vote count is The Borda count is an alternete vote-counting system that I implemented in T2 and plan to implement in SSB:I. Basically, everyone gets three votes. For example: 1. Vote molefan 2. Vote Pleo 3. Vote Idle After a number of votes are made this way, the votes are tallied as follows: the first vote is +3, the second +2, and the third +1. Whoever has the most lynch points is in the lead. Sample vote count: Votes: Pedescribe: 1. Molefan, 2. Idle, 3. Pleo Idle: 1. Pleonast, 2. Molefan, 3. Naf1138 NAF1138: 1. Pleonast, 2. Molefan, 3. Chucara Chucara: 1. Molefan, 2. pede, 3. Idle Pleonast: 1. NAF1138, 2. pede, 3. molefan Molefan: 1.Pleo, 2. Idle, 3. NAF1138 Totals: Molefan: (11) (pede 1st, Idle 2nd, NAF 2nd, Chuc 1st, Pleo 3rd) Pleonast: (10) (pede 3rd, Idle 1st, NAF 1st, molefan 1st) Idle: (5) (pede 2nd, chuc 3rd, molefan 2nd) pede: (4) (chuc 2nd, Pleo 2nd) NAF: (2) (Idle 3rd, molefan 3rd) chuc: (1) (NAF 3rd) As you can see, it is much more difficult to take vote counts, but the results are more interesting. Note that Pleonast has the most first place votes, but molefan is in the lead. Also, each player would have to have 3 votes in by dusk, or their partial vote would not be tallied.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 12, 2008 0:04:32 GMT -5
Here are the features I've agreed with myself on so far: There will be a single thread for each day/night. In this thread, several different types of posts exist: - Talk (normal posts from players) - Comments (spoilered and unspoilered) - Votes (A vote is tagged onto a "Talk", but shown seperately) - Notes (A feature similar to wikipedia. Basically one or more posts that all players can edit. A post is made for each edit as to have a history/log) - Special group posts (Scum, mason etc.) Obviously, only spoilered users are able to see all types of posts. The idea is that everything will be in a single timeline so that it integrates slightly better, and should be more interesting to follow. Furthermore, there will be an automated voting system: - Players vote for each other by selecting a vote option somewhere in the manu. At any given point the system knows the most recent vote count. It is up to the moderator to decide how often this is disclosed to players, if at all. - End of day can be handled by the script - Ending times are also handled. Mod/script determines ending time in local timezone, system makes sure players can see ending times in their time zone. Possibility for notification/warnings if players decide (this feature is uncertain). Right now, I'm pondering whether this is easier to implement from the ground up (will cost features as compared to mature forum software), or I should try to force it on / integrate with Simple Machines Forum. I really like all of the ideas in this post. I don't know about any of the rest of it, but I like your thoughts.
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Post by Mister Blockey on Nov 12, 2008 2:37:22 GMT -5
you could run a script for a borda vote it would just be more complicated
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