Merestil Haye
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[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 16:21:50 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jul 17, 2009 16:21:50 GMT -5
On the other hand, now we have to figure out what to do with Hockey Monkey. I don't want to lynch a townie right away, but damn if that isn't a crappy role to have in the game. . If we don't want her alive, it's probably better to allow her to suicide toNight rather that waste a lynch on her. But we also might want to use her as a second lynch. Go for the #2 target. As long as we had that plan in place long enough to allow defenses and/or claims. Or we could have a secondary vote for who we'd like to be NK'd Don't even think about going down this road. Before you do, you are required to read the second Mafia game, colloquially M2. My objections are, in the main, twofold. Firstly what you propose grants a voice in the argument about who to kill to the Rebels - and don't think they'll remain silent. Thus, if HM agrees to go along with the Town wish, you're risking letting the Rebels have an extra Nightkill. My second problem is that none of us have executive oversight of the PM that HM sends to Hawk. She can write anything, and we wouldn't know. My other worry is that the Rebels have a redirector. That would be a disaster that keeps on hitting, at least until we hang Hockey Monkey. You should remember that from Alpha Centauri. HM, you probably missed that game, on the Giraffe boards. Sister Coyote was a Remorseful Vig - a Nightkiller who would target themselves if they killed a Townsperson. SHe killed Night 2, then confessed in Day 3. She had to target herself, but the Mafia had a redirector, so they turned her self-targeted kill on another Townsperson. We had to lynch her in order for the Town not to lose in a Day or two. I wish you hadn't claimed now, since if the Rebels have a redirector you've just handed them a second directable kill every Night. But hte cact's out of the bag and we'll just have to deal with it.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 16:27:23 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Jul 17, 2009 16:27:23 GMT -5
Why the evasiveness? If you think that revealing some information you have is detrimental to the Town, then say so. Or please otherwise explain why it's pro-Town to not answer our questions. You have already demonstrated that you are incapable or unwilling to see things beyond what may or may not be good or bad for one win condition or another, so there is no point in engaging with you further. Uh, we're playing Mafia, determining who/what/why in relation to win conditions is the whole point. unvote peeker; I hope you're not jealous if I change my vote. vote Cookies, for keeping information to herself without justification, and for refusing to answer questions clearly or otherwise not engaging in discussion with reason. I believe Cookies. I think too much is being made of the supposed handshake. I am Establishment and I have a slightly differently worded win condition. Mine says that all the Rebels must be dead. So I've told you that I'm not Vanilla. I've been contemplating going ahead and claiming. I feel like I should based on the type of role that I have. I am the Minister of War. I have a mandatory night kill. If I don't specify someone to kill, it will be me. I've played in plenty of other games to know that this role can be detrimental to the town and I don't want to do that. I am not the mercenary, so there is someone else out there who may be a killer tonight other than scum. I'll let the town decide what to do with me, but if I don't get lynched I will have to kill someone tonight. Now you all have something to discuss on Day One. While some people think Vigilantes are anti-Town, a well-played one can be huge benefit. I certainly don't want to lynch you. The main thing is to not let others persuade you about who to target. Make the decision yourself. The only other advice I'll give you is that if your kill fails, don't tell us who you were targeting because it may be the Town protector.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 16:31:03 GMT -5
Post by BillMc on Jul 17, 2009 16:31:03 GMT -5
It's weird right? On the other hand, now we have to figure out what to do with Hockey Monkey. I don't want to lynch a townie right away, but damn if that isn't a crappy role to have in the game. Also, see the Jester discussion. Yeah, mandatory town vig is a tough role - and I'm a surprised and suspicious that Hockey has claimed so early. A reasonable opening strategy for that role is lynch-the-lurker, but its def a role that town doesnt want around later in the game unless we are absolutely sure who to kill. A claim this early puts us in an awkward position. If we believe the claim: - then its an extra town kill - IF Hockey doesn't kill town, and the town doc protects her from being NK'd.
- If we tell Hockey who to kill, then the scum can influence this, giving them a likely extra NK
- If we tell Hockey who to kill, then if the scum have a busdriver/redirector they will get the extra kill.
- we lynch her to be safe
- have her commit suicide (I see o preview Edhas suggested this, and Hockey has suggested it. If there is a scum redirector, then its an extra NK to the scum.
If we don't believe the claim - then what's her motivation for the claim. Again it feels somewhat Cookieish - stir up controversy. Indeed, her response to suicide could be read as being anti-town, but if there is a redirector, then its a pro-town position. I won't suicide in the game. I don't have it in me to do that. I was given the role and I will play it, but I want it out in the open because of the nature of the role. You can lynch me or let the scum take a shot at me tonight, but I will not kill myself.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 17:00:47 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jul 17, 2009 17:00:47 GMT -5
Well Bill, there's no really good way to play this kind of role. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing. I'm not suprised that you or anybody else is suspicious. My claim was not intended to put the town in an awkward position, but to forward some information. My motivation was to get the info out there that the win conditions are indeed differently worded for town vanilla and town power roles, but also to help the town. If my kill were not mandatory, I probably would have stayed quiet and done nothing tonight. I don't have that option though so I thought it best to get out in the open.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 17:03:16 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 17:03:16 GMT -5
I'm also happy to die if I continue be smeared for having ethics, because that isn't a game I want to waste my time continuing to play in. I have a feeling that the ethical quarrel you have is with me primarily. We have a difference of opinion on the subject, but I don't actually think you are scum, just misguided. Meh, misguided isn't the right word, but it's close enough I guess. Anyway, I don't want you to become disenchanted with the game to the point that you would rather not play, but I am honestly surprised that you have such a violent negative reaction to the handshake. It's become fairly standard to try to give town an edge in this way, as a game mod I expect it, as scum I watch for it. It's just part of the game at this point and I don't really see how it's any less ethical than talking bringing up fight club or shoes or any of the other thousand different ways that players have tried to get outside the box. It's a game. The goal is to 1)have fun and 2) win. I am sorry if some of us going after goal 2 make it harder for you to get to goal 1. Really, I'm not out to rob anyone of a good time.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 17:05:00 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 17:05:00 GMT -5
But we also might want to use her as a second lynch. Go for the #2 target. As long as we had that plan in place long enough to allow defenses and/or claims. Or we could have a secondary vote for who we'd like to be NK'd Both of these are "very bad ideas" I see MHaye already covered why a little later on in the thread so I won't go into it, but they have been tried before and they don't work out well.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 17:07:01 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 17:07:01 GMT -5
I won't suicide in the game. I don't have it in me to do that. I was given the role and I will play it, but I want it out in the open because of the nature of the role. You can lynch me or let the scum take a shot at me tonight, but I will not kill myself. I totally respect that. I don't think I want to lynch you...but I don't know what I do want to do yet. The thing is, you could be really really helpful early in the game, you only start to become a problem if you live too long. I need to think on this (and pray someone has a good idea, cause right now I got nothing.)
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 18:11:11 GMT -5
Post by pumpjack on Jul 17, 2009 18:11:11 GMT -5
What's the estimation on the number of scum in this game? And does Hockey Monkey's claim change the estimation?
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 18:24:15 GMT -5
Post by spintari on Jul 17, 2009 18:24:15 GMT -5
First, i'd like to note that I had to read copious posts of many words AND the glossary of abbreviations. Irony is fun!
Also, this is a bit confusing to me since in the offline games I've played, the rules discussion never got in depth, and typically people hold back a little on the first day. Of course, the "town" are made to be disposable, so you can go in firing wildly and building a better case on the 2nd day on the basis of "Well, she drowned. Our mistake."
However, (again, being new) the enthusiasm on the first day, the day where nobody really knows what the hell is going on, is kinda puzzling. I'm highly suspicious of anyone who can make a decisive vote at this point, especially anyone who is hurrying to do so. The first day seems to take longer, in my experience, but then again that is offline and synchronous, so I know the observations may not completely translate.
Either way. I got nothing. Unless I'm going to be really petty. Wait..is that what everyone else is doing? *boggle*
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 18:25:15 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 18:25:15 GMT -5
Well, if Hawk generally followed the JSP system for balancing the game then Hockey Monkey's role is either town neutral or a slightly pro scum role on the balance sheet. So, it might mean that there are fewer scum in the game than we might normally expect, but what I think is more likely is that there are the typical 3-5 scum and that HM's role (if it is to be believed, and at the moment I do believe it) didn't get factored into the equation.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 18:27:46 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 18:27:46 GMT -5
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 18:29:30 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 18:29:30 GMT -5
Either way. I got nothing. Unless I'm going to be really petty. Wait..is that what everyone else is doing? *boggle* Mostly. ;D I think right now most of the votes are votes for reaction and to get things moving. Some people like to come out swinging on Day 1. Personally, I haven't figured a way to play the Day 1 vote that I like. This game I am trying out hanging back and seeing how things play out for a bit.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 18:52:11 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 17, 2009 18:52:11 GMT -5
I have an ethical problem with all of the alleged handshakers, not just you NAF. You all had a brief opportunity to redeem yourselves by dropping the topic once Hawk had posted the Vanilla Town PM, and not one of you took it. Not a single one of you adjusted your trajectory even after you were confronted with the undeniable fact that rules of the game were designed to prevent such things, even though the Mod wasn't able to tie up all of the loose ends prior to the game starting. That might bring some of you (assuming Town alignment) some sort of satisfaction that you might have been able to steal an advantage for your faction, but not everyone finds satisfaction in such things. Some people find such things actually have the inverse effect and take satisfaction away from the experience of playing on the same side as people who play like that. I'm one of those people.
Normally, I would just rail at such play from my metagame ethical ivory tower, but in this case I happened to have information that casts not just ethical doubt on the handshaking, but doubt as it relates to the Town's risks in game.
Pleo's play is particularly rubbing me the wrong way on multiple levels. In one post he asks me to elaborate on my 2 PMs, then suggests that I PM the mod if I have any doubts as to staying within the confines of the rules. Yet when I refuse to budge on any more information about the first PM (the one I have already stated that the mod specifically asked me to ignore, not to mention the fact, again, that we have all been advised to consider our role PMs to have self-destructed upon reading) he smears me as being evasive and then goes on to slap a vote on me for keeping things to myself, not speaking clearly and not subscribing to reason.
What if I have followed your (Pleo's) suggestion and asked the Mod and he said that further elaboration would be in violate the rules? Why would you take my word on that while you have pissed on everything else I've said since I claimed?
I have, in fact, exchanged a single round of PMs with Hawk since receiving my correct role, but I didn't need his opinion to know that I have already said enough on the subject.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:00:33 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:00:33 GMT -5
I very much want to negate the limited handshaking that has occurred already. Okay, now I'm actually a bit suspicious. I get that you, personally, couldn't handshake--and given how many times I've *'ed up PMs, it's a believable story. And I get not personally liking handshakes, because they're metagamey (besides, our PMs self-destructed, remember?). But why would you want to actively negate what's already out there? I mean, you've already washed your hands of it. Why would you deprive others of the fruits of their (in their eyes) perfectly legitimate tactics? I mean, unless you don't want them to be confirmed because you know they're town. Not enough to vote you...but it is enough to unvote ed for voting for you. Unvote: Ed
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:02:48 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:02:48 GMT -5
On the other hand, a vanilla scum, in a game with no Day talking for scum, might decide that it was worth the risk to try and head off a potential second masonry before it can gain a bunch of steam. I don't necessarily think you are scum, though it is possible, but I do think there's a real possibility to gain some valuable information Today. If you're scum, then we can probably assume you are lying about receiving multiple PMs, and have a couple people that are 99% likely Town If you're Town, then you're clearly not lying about the PMs, but it also doesn't necessarily mean that anyone else received such a mangled PM. Obviously it lowers the likelihood of Pleo and NAF in my mind(and I'm sure me in theirs) being Town, but not quite all the way down to where everyone starts. However, with all that being said, I'm not quite willing to vote you yet Cookies. Before I do, I want to ask everyone else. Is anyone else willing to admit to receiving a similarly mangled or otherwise incorrect role PM? So...if we lynch Cookies, and she's scum, it's good, but if she's town, it's...not? How is that different from anyone else? Oh, and my PM was completely unmangled.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:06:54 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 19:06:54 GMT -5
What if I have followed your (Pleo's) suggestion and asked the Mod and he said that further elaboration would be in violate the rules? Why would you take my word on that while you have pissed on everything else I've said since I claimed? Honestly? I would have stopped asking you. What was getting me was the squirliness of your answers not the subject matter involved. I play the game a lot more by reading (or trying to read) how people react to given situations than by what they have to say in particular. Maybe that's where the disconnect is coming from. For me the handshake is nothing more than an extention of the behavioral analysis that I put into place any way. Do people "act townie" or not. Content analysis and hard data analysis play a part in the game too, but I'm not as good at seeing that as I am the other. I care a lot less about what you have to say and a lot more about how and when you say it. We could be talking about anything and the squirly answers would have gotten the same response. Anyway, I am not trying to make the game less fun for you, but for me the game is about figuring things out. It's not gaining competative satisfaction by bending the rules, it's gathering whatever information I am able to gather in order to solve the puzzle.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:07:28 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:07:28 GMT -5
I don't see much Town benefit for vanilla outing in Day 1. It would be an odd thing for scum to do, claiming to have gotten multiple role pms. I would think there would be a risk for mod commentary (maybe not a huge risk, but a risk). Wow, non sequitor. It's easy to screw up PMs. Darned easy. And it can happen with the vanilla town as easily as it can happen with the sooper-sekret sheriff godfather. The odds of Hawk having screwed up multiple PMs and him having only screwed up vanilla town PMs is much lower than him having screwed up a) none b) one or c) multiple, with no differentiation between vanilla town and others meaning that there is virtually no risk of vanilla outing. P.S. If my contributions are irrelevant, I'm sorry. But I'm just responding in the order the posts were made.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:08:25 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 17, 2009 19:08:25 GMT -5
Pede, you are missing the entire thesis of my claim.
If I got a mixed up vanilla Rebel/Establishment role, there is no reason to assume that other errors weren't also made with the PMs of other players. Ergo, a hypothetical Vanilla Rebel who also received a 2nd corrected PM with similar instructions to ignore the first...coupled with the opportunity presented by Hawk not immediately posting the Vanilla Establishment PM...could have either instigated the whole handshake discussion or just participated in it, successfully.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:13:42 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:13:42 GMT -5
I've been waffling back and forth on whether or not to do this, especially with cookies casting doubt on its efficacy, however more to gain/lose may influence decisions. Also in retrospect my instinctive sneakiness may have made this more questionable than it needed to be. Regarding the merc him/herself. I recall the role of War that I held in my first game on this board, who's win condition was to end the game with himself, one scum, and one town. Clearly that exact win condition is unlikely, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were something along that vein to keep the merc from giving too much help to town or scum. I wouldn't give a yes or no on it, but the longer I think on it, the more I feel he/she is not a immediate threat. also simple solution to an earlier question Can you hire the merc to monologue and/or sit on his/her hands?I'm glad for something interesting to look at on day one, huzzah! Sadly if you know me the most telling detail is that it's an a there and not an an, like I would normally write. It actually hurt to write that incorrectly. That was posted before the vanilla pm had been posted. oh and once more Hey mod, can we successfully bid to have the merc do an action that doesn't involve killing, such as sitting on his hands or monologuing? Vote: Mr. Blockey It looks to me like you're attempting to stretch a fortuitous coincidence into a 'breadcrumb'. Your words are spaced, at random, it appears. Other than the word 'threat' (a not uncommon word), there is nothing telling about the sentence, nothing significantly indicative. But you struck gold without realizing it and are attempting to spin it into a townie tell, I think.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:18:34 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 17, 2009 19:18:34 GMT -5
What if I have followed your (Pleo's) suggestion and asked the Mod and he said that further elaboration would be in violate the rules? Why would you take my word on that while you have pissed on everything else I've said since I claimed? Honestly? I would have stopped asking you. What was getting me was the squirliness of your answers not the subject matter involved. I play the game a lot more by reading (or trying to read) how people react to given situations than by what they have to say in particular. Maybe that's where the disconnect is coming from. For me the handshake is nothing more than an extention of the behavioral analysis that I put into place any way. Do people "act townie" or not. Content analysis and hard data analysis play a part in the game too, but I'm not as good at seeing that as I am the other. I care a lot less about what you have to say and a lot more about how and when you say it. We could be talking about anything and the squirly answers would have gotten the same response. Anyway, I am not trying to make the game less fun for you, but for me the game is about figuring things out. It's not gaining competative satisfaction by bending the rules, it's gathering whatever information I am able to gather in order to solve the puzzle. That's quite a double standard. One alleged conversation I had with the Mod gets one treatment and another alleged conversation with him gets another? I understand your approach to the game, and I try to look at timing but I mostly work in (and expect) careful reading of what is said vs how or when it is said.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:18:30 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:18:30 GMT -5
Unvote Pollux Oil. Sorry, guys, seriously. Helpful hint: if you use [vote ] NOTAREALVOTE [/b][/color] and remove the space between the e and the ], it will come out as Vote: NOTAREALVOTE
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:19:07 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:19:07 GMT -5
I don't think that a wincon requiring that "the rebels are no longer a threat" precludes a 3rd party exclusive win. All it means is that we don't have to destroy the 3rd party to achieve our wincon. I'm wondering if maybe there are several third parties, or even multiple mafias, all under the umbrella of 'Rebel'.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:22:37 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:22:37 GMT -5
It's a little early to be talking about transfering gold. Especially in public, since if you state you're transfering to a specific person it likely will give the Rebels and Thief a great target for Tonight. I'm glad to see someone gets what I've been trying to express. I agree with you stanis that probable Town is a good description for NAF, Blockey and I. I was by no means trying to get people to absolutely confirm us as Town, since that is just silly. But probable? Absolutely. Nor did I at any point say that someone who talked about PFKs or Third Parties stealing the win being scum. It's a point of data against them yes, but that's no where near the same as being scum. The Thief or Merc flat out winning the game, with it ending, is more or less precluded by the Town win con. I could very easily see a mini-game between them however, similar to the Evil Dead dueling SKs though, where the only people they're actually competing with is each other. I note that we still haven't had anyone else admit to receiving a bugged PM. It seems more and more unlikely anyone else did, and I'm not convinced Cookies did. I'm going to make a vote now. It's a little bit I think she could be scum, based on her vehemence that no hand shaking occurred, and a little bit a lynch for information. Vote: Cookies [/color][/quote] Except, as pointed out, the information from lynching her would be near nil, unless she's scum. In which case we should lynch her anyway. Seriously, if you think she's scum, keep building your case, I'm not going to stop you. Obviously I'm not convinced yet, but I am somewhat suspicious of her. But hiding behind this 'info' business is some weak stuff, IMHO. P.S. My post count is now equal and opposite to my karma!
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:23:09 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:23:09 GMT -5
P.S. My post count is now equal and opposite to my karma! Or not...maybe I just suck at math.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:33:45 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:33:45 GMT -5
I want to second this. Now is not really the time to start talking about pooling gold. I am not sure when that time will be yet, but I do know that now isn't it. I don't think we should hire the merc to do anything. Ever. If there is a PFK mechanic, we would just be contributing to it, and if there isn't then we will just be creating noise trying to figure out what to do rather than finding Rebels. We can't do anything about a thief, but if we aren't talking about giving gold to a merc, then there will be less clues for the thief. What if we can hire him to protect someone? Or investigate someone?
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:37:17 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:37:17 GMT -5
Exactly. The town win condition does not preclude any other win conditions. Well it does preclude almost all PFK type win conditions. If the town wins when the Rebels are no longer a threat then as long as town eliminates rebles it doesn't have to worry about traditional SKs and whatnot. Unless the mafialike group and the SK are both labelled rebels. I'm thinking of a similar time when it was just Town vs. Third Part, more or less, and the town won when all threats were eliminated. Given that we are the Establishment, any seditious movement is a rebellion, ain't it?
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:40:07 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:40:07 GMT -5
While I suppose it's a brief summary of my reason for voting, the real reason involved suspicion based on failing to use Establishment as her alignment andtrying to throw doubt on the Town handshake. At this point, after the most recent exchange, I realized, if we lynch cookies, and she turns up not Town, that might give us more confidence in the handshake that did occur, and if she turns up Town, we might have a little less confidence. This is why, as a vanilla player, I'm happy to die. There should be no confidence in those handshakes. I'm also happy to die if I continue be smeared for having ethics, because that isn't a game I want to waste my time continuing to play in. I feel ya, cookies. I actually deleted my role PM around page 6 because it was irking me so much--something I suggest everyone do, so as to play more within the spirit of the game.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:44:43 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on Jul 17, 2009 19:44:43 GMT -5
Vote Count: Cookies 3: (Special Ed, Nanook, Pleonast) Mister Blockey 1 (Pedescribe) Special ed 1 (KidV)
As always player are encouraged to pm their thoughts throughout game. I'll open up a journal on the spoiler board for anyone interested.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:44:35 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:44:35 GMT -5
Pleo's play is particularly rubbing me the wrong way on multiple levels. In one post he asks me to elaborate on my 2 PMs, then suggests that I PM the mod if I have any doubts as to staying within the confines of the rules. Yet when I refuse to budge on any more information about the first PM (the one I have already stated that the mod specifically asked me to ignore, not to mention the fact, again, that we have all been advised to consider our role PMs to have self-destructed upon reading) he smears me as being evasive and then goes on to slap a vote on me for keeping things to myself, not speaking clearly and not subscribing to reason. What if I have followed your (Pleo's) suggestion and asked the Mod and he said that further elaboration would be in violate the rules? Why would you take my word on that while you have pissed on everything else I've said since I claimed? I have, in fact, exchanged a single round of PMs with Hawk since receiving my correct role, but I didn't need his opinion to know that I have already said enough on the subject. And not only all that, but he was the one to warn Hawkeye about the loophole in the first place! It is horribly inconsistant. If I wasn't voting MB for trying to hitch on the breadcrumb bandwagon after it left the station, I'd be voting Pleo.
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Trepa Mayfield
FGM
Does Not Follow Directions
The only kind of panda worth preserving.
Posts: 989
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 19:45:57 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 19:45:57 GMT -5
Sorry about the massive post block, shouldn't happen again now that I'm caught up.
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