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Day 1
Jul 16, 2009 19:11:16 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Jul 16, 2009 19:11:16 GMT -5
1. A second mistake by the moderator's PMs. 2. That mistake to have happened to NAF in particular. 3. Either Nanook received a third munged PM or cleverly/luckily picked up on NAF's breadcrumb. Unless you have some insight into the order that Hawkeye used to send his PMs, this (to continue my use of a pet phrase) means jack crap. I think the meaning of second and third doesn't denote when they occurred but rather that we "know" about your mistake and then we'd find out about another and then yet another. In other words second and third are just talking about places on a list not temporal positioning. I may be rambling at this point, but I think I make sense.
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Day 1
Jul 16, 2009 20:02:43 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 16, 2009 20:02:43 GMT -5
Even so, as the recipient of a role PM mistake, you're going to have a hard time convincing me of how unlikely it is for anyone to get one.
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Day 1
Jul 16, 2009 20:56:54 GMT -5
Post by pumpjack on Jul 16, 2009 20:56:54 GMT -5
I'm trying to lose my newbieness, but... was there a handshake that succeeded?
Also, does having a win condition of the rebels no longer being a threat mean that there is only one way for us to lose? Couldn't a thief's win condition be to collect 100 gold pieces? Or maybe town would no longer be a threat if we spend/lose all our money?
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Day 1
Jul 16, 2009 21:00:14 GMT -5
Post by Archangel on Jul 16, 2009 21:00:14 GMT -5
Unvote Pollux Oil.
Yeah, I really need new glasses, sorry.
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Day 1
Jul 16, 2009 21:01:18 GMT -5
Post by Archangel on Jul 16, 2009 21:01:18 GMT -5
Unvote Pollux Oil.
Sorry, guys, seriously.
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Day 1
Jul 16, 2009 21:09:34 GMT -5
Post by hockeyguy8435 on Jul 16, 2009 21:09:34 GMT -5
I'm trying to lose my newbieness, but... was there a handshake that succeeded? Also, does having a win condition of the rebels no longer being a threat mean that there is only one way for us to lose? Couldn't a thief's win condition be to collect 100 gold pieces? Or maybe town would no longer be a threat if we spend/lose all our money? If the Thief/Merc are independent from the Town, but the Town's win con is just to get rid of the rebels, maybe the Theif/Merc have their own battle going on? It's been speculated that they're fighting for gold, which I would agree with. My theory is that once the Thief or Merc reach their independent win con, they're removed from the game and it continues without them. Has that ever been done before? I played a game where that was part of it, but neither of the third parties ever reached their goal, so it never happened. I don't really know how it would work, or if it'd be possible. Anyone ever seen that? But anyway, if that was the case, would there even be a reason to search for the Thief or Merc? Assuming they're not Scum of course. And assuming they wouldn't steal the win, but since the Vanilla Town PM clearly states they just need to remove the Rebel threat, the Thief/Merc wouldn't be a threat to the Town at all. Aside from stealing, and potentially being hired to kill a Townie. There's always the chance that the Thief is a Rebel and the Merc is Town, or vice versa.
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Day 1
Jul 16, 2009 21:11:36 GMT -5
Post by hockeyguy8435 on Jul 16, 2009 21:11:36 GMT -5
Of course that's assuming a Thief/Merc win wouldn't just end the game outright, and cause all other factions to lose.
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Day 1
Jul 16, 2009 21:37:33 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Jul 16, 2009 21:37:33 GMT -5
I don't think that a wincon requiring that "the rebels are no longer a threat" precludes a 3rd party exclusive win. All it means is that we don't have to destroy the 3rd party to achieve our wincon.
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Day 1
Jul 16, 2009 21:39:34 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on Jul 16, 2009 21:39:34 GMT -5
This handshake business is already making me less enthusiastic about the game. Yeah, yeah, use whatever means and whatever loopholes you can to win. But it makes it a lot less fun.
If there wasn't the mystery of figuring out the set-up my enthusiasm would already be way down for the game.
I'm hoping one of you "handshake" people are actually scum because that'll spice things up. Otherwise, lame.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 1:15:51 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 1:15:51 GMT -5
Wow, I need to check here more often. I just noticed the game started, and I dont' have time to read now.
Also, I'm really really confused by the whole gold thing. If I'm reading it correctly, we contact the mod and do special missions, and if we succeed we get gold? Issat right?
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 1:28:22 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 17, 2009 1:28:22 GMT -5
I just realized that I didn't explicitly state my alignment, which is the citizen of Quantom one. Sorry about that. Vote: cookies [/color][/quote] Vote: Ed You really think a scum would do that? Really? I mean, I can see a Rebel not specifying their alignment (although if I was a rebel, I most certainly would state that I was not a rebel in my first post), but to call themselves on it? I just can't see a Rebel doing that. And I know that's the 'swndt' argument, but why would a rebel call attention to themselves for no gain, hmm?
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 1:32:51 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 17, 2009 1:32:51 GMT -5
The only (public) information so far is that the Vanilla Townies were born with 1 piece of gold each, and that there is some sort of Thief role and a Mercenary role who can be bought to do seemingly whatever the winning/selected buyer's bidding is. The Mod appears to broker the bids for the Mercenary's action such that the Mercenary doesn't know who is behind any of the bids, and the Merc isn't necessarily obligated to go with the highest bidder. We also know that we can give gold to other players anonymously. Pretty much everything else is speculation, including...
how much gold is in the game
whether it is a fixed system with a finite amount that has already been distributed or if we can somehow pull more money in somehow
what happens to the gold possessed by the dead
just exactly how the Merc mechanic works with respect to selecting the winning bid
just exactly how the Thief mechanic works
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 2:02:26 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 17, 2009 2:02:26 GMT -5
[/color][/quote] Vote: Ed [/color] You really think a scum would do that? Really? I mean, I can see a Rebel not specifying their alignment (although if I was a rebel, I most certainly would state that I was not a rebel in my first post), but to call themselves on it? I just can't see a Rebel doing that. And I know that's the 'swndt' argument, but why would a rebel call attention to themselves for no gain, hmm?[/quote] I think you missed the point of my vote. Hopefully as you caught up, you caught on.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 2:12:17 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 17, 2009 2:12:17 GMT -5
You haven't really come out and said it, Ed. Do you want to go ahead and do us all the favor? Was it my not using the word "Establishment"?
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 8:04:34 GMT -5
Post by stanislaus on Jul 17, 2009 8:04:34 GMT -5
I'll be going away for the weekend and while I should be able to get online and read at some point, this is as good a time as any to set down some thoughts:
1) I'm still worried that the scum are in a much better position than we are to hire the Merc. A couple of extra night kills would seriously tip the game their way. 2) Based on handshaking, I'm tentatively prepared to accept that some players are probably town, but this means watching them more carefully, not less. 3) As far as the converse goes, I'm not convinced that people who didn't breadcrumb, or who speculated about PFK-capability in unknown roles, are particularly likely to be scum. 4) The two players who showed the greatest interest in the potential game-breaking capabilities of vanilla handshaking were Pleo and cookies. I'm slightly suspicious, as both of them have posts that could plausibly be interpreted as trying to defend scum from the consequences - but then they could just as plausibly be interpreted as straight town. 5) By no means have we heard from everybody yet.
I'm not going to vote now, because with the time difference I'll be back in plenty of time on Monday to read over what I'm sure will be an action packed weekend.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 8:22:12 GMT -5
Post by BillMc on Jul 17, 2009 8:22:12 GMT -5
I think you missed the point of my vote. Hopefully as you caught up, you caught on. Hmm, maybe. But all I can say is that it is darn unusual for you Ed to vote without several pages of monologue first
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 8:52:36 GMT -5
Post by julie on Jul 17, 2009 8:52:36 GMT -5
I would be willing to transfer my gold piece to someone in an attempt to outbid any other factions. I know that it would be a risk, since the person I transfer to could just pocket my gold, but I also think that it might have some real upsides.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 9:19:08 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on Jul 17, 2009 9:19:08 GMT -5
It's a little early to be talking about transfering gold. Especially in public, since if you state you're transfering to a specific person it likely will give the Rebels and Thief a great target for Tonight.
I'm glad to see someone gets what I've been trying to express. I agree with you stanis that probable Town is a good description for NAF, Blockey and I. I was by no means trying to get people to absolutely confirm us as Town, since that is just silly. But probable? Absolutely. Nor did I at any point say that someone who talked about PFKs or Third Parties stealing the win being scum. It's a point of data against them yes, but that's no where near the same as being scum.
The Thief or Merc flat out winning the game, with it ending, is more or less precluded by the Town win con. I could very easily see a mini-game between them however, similar to the Evil Dead dueling SKs though, where the only people they're actually competing with is each other.
I note that we still haven't had anyone else admit to receiving a bugged PM. It seems more and more unlikely anyone else did, and I'm not convinced Cookies did.
I'm going to make a vote now. It's a little bit I think she could be scum, based on her vehemence that no hand shaking occurred, and a little bit a lynch for information.
Vote: Cookies
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 9:20:18 GMT -5
Post by hockeyguy8435 on Jul 17, 2009 9:20:18 GMT -5
I would be willing to transfer my gold piece to someone in an attempt to outbid any other factions. I know that it would be a risk, since the person I transfer to could just pocket my gold, but I also think that it might have some real upsides. There's a few risks with that: 1. You could transfer it to a Rebel. and then they'd have more gold with which to buy the Merc's services. 2. If you make it public who you transfer your gold to, then the Thief could just steal from that person. 3. You transfer it to the Merc themselves. Who would just pocket it. 4. There's a risk to all of us if you're the Thief, because then you could just steal it back. How would you decide who to transfer it to? Do you trust me enough to believe me when I say I'm not Scum? I highly doubt you'd just take mine, or anyone else's word at face value. While it's a very good idea to try and pool some gold to counter the Scum pool, there are so many things that could go wrong. Hopefully Hawk thought to add a Mason group in favor of the Town who could pool gold against the Scum. Or hopefully the Merc is pro-Town and has a good understanding of who is helping the Town, and thus wouldn't kill off anyone who is beneficial.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 10:42:14 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 10:42:14 GMT -5
It's a little early to be talking about transfering gold. Especially in public, since if you state you're transfering to a specific person it likely will give the Rebels and Thief a great target for Tonight. I want to second this. Now is not really the time to start talking about pooling gold. I am not sure when that time will be yet, but I do know that now isn't it. I don't know what to think about Cookies yet. The whole getting a wrong PM thing is sort of a huge mistake for a mod to make, and I would have to imagine that it happened to more than one person (assuming that Cookies is telling the truth). On the other hand, I don't think it's likely that it happened to more than one role type. Actually, now that I think about it. Cookies, exactly how was your role PM messed up. I know you can't quote, but can you give as many details as possible? Was it one of each PM in the same PM? Was it both win conditions? Was it a vanilla PM with a scum win condition? What exactly went on there?
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 10:52:52 GMT -5
Post by julie on Jul 17, 2009 10:52:52 GMT -5
Sure there are risks, but there are also risks for anyone taking the gold and then not delivering what they claim.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 10:57:31 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 10:57:31 GMT -5
Sure there are risks, but there are also risks for anyone taking the gold and then not delivering what they claim. I was actually thinking the risks of the theif taking that gold before anyone could do anything with it. I am not sure how to get around that one yet.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 10:58:46 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 10:58:46 GMT -5
NETA: oh you were probably talking to hockeyguy.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 11:09:18 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Jul 17, 2009 11:09:18 GMT -5
The information presented by Cookies is very useful! It's too bad you can't directly quote your original PM. However, you can paraphrase it for us. And you can tell us what any key words are. (Please confirm with the moderator if you're unsure precisely where the rules lie.) It may be possible for us to find slips by the Rebels if there are important differences between their win condition and ours. Cookies, exactly how was your role PM messed up. I know you can't quote, but can you give as many details as possible? Was it one of each PM in the same PM? Was it both win conditions? Was it a vanilla PM with a scum win condition? What exactly went on there? Cookies, would you address our questions?
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 11:20:43 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Jul 17, 2009 11:20:43 GMT -5
The Thief or Merc flat out winning the game, with it ending, is more or less precluded by the Town win con. How so? All I see that the wincon provides for is that we don't have to remove any 3rd parties to achieve our wincon. I'm not comfortable thinking I can deduce anyone else's wincon from that. Scum likely doesn't have to remove the 3rd parties either, but that's about as much conjecture as I'm really willing to apply to the subject.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 11:41:34 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 17, 2009 11:41:34 GMT -5
I have said everything I am comfortable saying with respect to my messed up PM, which is a lot, including already addressing questions from the Handshakers who continue to piss me the fuck off, and if I have to die to get them to stfu about the handshaking, so be it. I hate being a vanilla with a magic bag Yes, that's a claim and I know that some of you might very well start throwing rotten tomatoes at me for making this play, but as you will see I have my reasons. No one should be reading jack crap into any of the responses to the fishing for the win condition or vanilla handshakes, and here's why: Hawk's first role PM to me was incorrect. It was basically a Frankenstein love-child of what appeared to be a vanilla Rebel and a vanilla citizen of Quantom role PM. He later gave me a new one and told me to ignore the first. However, whether it was a legitimate error or Hawk being a Gastard, other players of unknown alignment could have received the same thing. In my mind this negates any insights that you all think you may have gotten from that particular tangent of the conversation. I just realized that I didn't explicitly state my alignment, which is the citizen of Quantom one. Sorry about that. I very much want to negate the limited handshaking that has occurred already. Maybe I can clarify a few things. (Added bold purple for a key phrase and included the Subject which doesn't appear to be included when using quote buttons, which is good to know) I hate being a vanilla with a magic bag Yes, that's a claim and I know that some of you might very well start throwing rotten tomatoes at me for making this play, but as you will see I have my reasons. No one should be reading jack crap into any of the responses to the fishing for the win condition or vanilla handshakes, and here's why: Hawk's first role PM to me was incorrect. It was basically a Frankenstein love-child of what appeared to be a vanilla Rebel[/color] and a vanilla citizen of Quantom role PM. He later gave me a new one and told me to ignore the first. However, whether it was a legitimate error or Hawk being a Gastard, other players of unknown alignment could have received the same thing. In my mind this negates any insights that you all think you may have gotten from that particular tangent of the conversation.[/quote] My only source of truth is my 2nd role PM decreeing me a vanilla citizen of Quantom. Since there were errors in my first PM, all I have is conjecture as to which bits (that were not also included in my 2nd PM), may or may not have been at all valid or have any bearing whatsoever in the game. However, all of the handshaking attempts that went down prior to my claim involved terminology that was present in both of my PMs. Once the Princess Bride game is finished, I'll be happy to elaborate on why I was inclined to say that I hate being a vanilla with a magic bag. What I meant here is that if the Mod made an error with my role PM, he could have made similar errors with other role PMs, regardless of what role information was erroneously included in the erroneous PMs, and regardless of what the role information was in any valid follow-up PMs. Ergo, I do not think it is necessarily wise to assume that the only erroneous PM content that was sent was sent to only me, nor do I think it is necessarily wise to assume that the only erroneous PM content that was sent was an exact carbon copy of my first PM. I am willing to entertain the thought that the only people who could have been impacted by any such errors would probably vanilla of some kind. If Hawk had managed to send PMs around with something like a Scum Godfather's chocolate in a Town Investigator's peanut butter, I would expect the game to either be scrapped and started over from scratch or subs to have been called in. I just realized that I didn't explicitly state my alignment, which is the citizen of Quantom one. Sorry about that. I refer to two possible alignments in my claim. The citizen of Quantom one is what was given to me in my 2nd PM. Better?[/quote] I understand. All I can say is that my first PM really fucked with my head with respect to pretty much everything, and I'd really rather not be claiming now at all. Between my first and 2nd PM the role title and win condition changed, but the alignment remained the same. For whatever reason at the time I decided to claim, my brain was more preoccupied with what was different about PMs, not what was the same. I'd also have to be a pretty stupid false-claiming scum or 3rd Party / PFK / Label du jour, to claim in such a clunky and disjointed fashion with the Vanilla Establishment Quantom citizenry PM right there for everyone to see. Yeah, yeah queue the "scum would never do that" stuff, but a Vanilla townie isn't necessarily trying to stay alive at all costs, carefully and meticulously weighing every word for maximum manipulative payoff or maximum life expectancy and minimum risk to their person. How the hell is that not an argument? It is the whole damn reason why I'm claiming. And as far as what the Rebel win condition might be, I am inclined to consider the possibility that you think is such a stretch, Nanook, but my perspective has been influenced by what was contained in my first PM.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 11:52:29 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 11:52:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I read all that before I asked. I am paying attention in this game. But why wouldn't you feel comfortable telling us how the PM was fucked up. Saying that it was a weird frankenstein version, while nicely dramatic in description, isn't exactly detailed.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 12:02:39 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 17, 2009 12:02:39 GMT -5
Are you paying attention, though?
[/size][/color]
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 12:10:38 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 12:10:38 GMT -5
I am. Maybe I am being dense. It's unintentional I assure you.
Are you saying that the only thing that changed is the title and win condition and that at first you thought you were a rebel? I'm not sure I am getting it.
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Day 1
Jul 17, 2009 12:11:44 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 17, 2009 12:11:44 GMT -5
Sorry, there should be emphasis on the work only in that last post.
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