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Post by Captain Klutz on Dec 16, 2011 8:44:27 GMT -5
Appreciate your comments, sach. It's discussions like this that help me design future games, even though we disagree on this particular matter. The heart of mafia is assessing other players' alignments. Hence, one of my rules of thumbs for mafia design is that the moderator should not be confirming living players. So the sure truth should only come once the player is out of the game. So why the heck do you have a Scotsman role? Sure, powers can be affected by other powers. But what caused this kerfuffle was that the moderator's lynch reveal was false. That's not a player getting a result from their power, that's a moderator statement of the state of the game. Suppose the moderator gives a vote count that shows player A in the lead. Then player B ends up getting lynched because he had some special, secret, invisible votes that didn't appear in the official vote count. You can call that the result of a power, but it makes the game unplayable.
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Post by CatInASuit on Dec 16, 2011 10:18:29 GMT -5
My tuppence on it. The heart of mafia is assessing other players' alignments. Hence, one of my rules of thumbs for mafia design is that the moderator should not be confirming living players. So the sure truth should only come once the player is out of the game. Idle Thoughts is a Scotsman and has survived the lynch. The problem is that this is a mod confirm of the role. Perhaps a better way to have put it would have been just to say that "Idle Thoughts had survived the lynch" and allow everyone to draw their own conclusions. I doubt if he had been a real scotsman, you would have said so in the colour. However, in terms of secret powers that mess around with the game, as long as they are balanced and the players are aware they exist, then there is nothing wrong with it. Which leads to one point. Given the ruleset and Idle's claim, the only way it could have occured was if he had the town secret power. The. Only. Way. His continued denials should have made it obvious he was lying about something. Cue comments on assumptions and expectations
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 16, 2011 11:25:34 GMT -5
Has anyone spread the word to the dope and elsewhere that a new conspiracy game is almost here? Good idea. I haven't and hadn't thought about it. I'll post something in the SDMB game after the holidays. Appreciate your comments, sach. It's discussions like this that help me design future games, even though we disagree on this particular matter. The heart of mafia is assessing other players' alignments. Hence, one of my rules of thumbs for mafia design is that the moderator should not be confirming living players. So the sure truth should only come once the player is out of the game. So why the heck do you have a Scotsman role? Because uncertain information is still useful. And if a deviation from the open rules is found, that fact is also useful information. The revelation of a Scotsman upon an attempted lynch or kill is their power. That power could be affected by other powers just like any others could be. And the rules explicitly stated that only reveals after death are always absolutely correct. My tuppence on it. The heart of mafia is assessing other players' alignments. Hence, one of my rules of thumbs for mafia design is that the moderator should not be confirming living players. So the sure truth should only come once the player is out of the game. Idle Thoughts is a Scotsman and has survived the lynch. The problem is that this is a mod confirm of the role. Subject to the caveat in the rules that only reveals of dead players are guaranteed correct. From the Scotsman rules: "Your role will be revealed to all upon surviving." The attempted lynch or kill result "So-and-so is a Scotsman" is part of the role of the Scotsman. This is a very important point. Once it became clear that the Vicar had the Town's secret power, there was enough information available to deduce that something was fishy about Idle. Which is why I make the rules set open, except for a secret power on each team. Players don't need to know all the rules, but there's a definite advantage to knowing them.
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Post by sachertorte on Dec 16, 2011 16:39:26 GMT -5
This is a very important point. Once it became clear that the Vicar had the Town's secret power, there was enough information available to deduce that something was fishy about Idle. Incorrect. While this is how the game played out, it was NOT by design. The conflict between the true Town Secret Power and Idle Thoughts was only made because Idle Thoughts unwisely revealed the "List Of Roles." That action had NOTHING to do with Idle faking being a Scotsman. In other words, Idle's play is providing false cover for the moderator lie. Had Idle done the Scotsman gambit and ONLY the Scotsman gambit, then the revelation that the Vicar held the Town Secret Power would provide nothing with respect to the scotsman situation. The lie was not deducible. The fact of the matter is, the conflict between Idle's List and The Town Secret Power was never addressed in game... and the reason it wasn't was because the moderator announced that Idle was A Scotsman. No one had any reason to believe Pleonast would lie. Now players do, and I expect the lack of trust in what the moderator reveals will be an impediment to the game. As someone already pointed out the moderator lie has made the Scotsman role 100% defunct. Moderator choices like these effect future games. Personally, I don't even like the Godfather lie. I much prefer situations where the description makes it clear that investigations have limitations. (e.g., Evil Dead where the investigator finds deadites and humans with the caveat that all deadites are scum but not all scum are deadites.).
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 16, 2011 17:34:08 GMT -5
This is a very important point. Once it became clear that the Vicar had the Town's secret power, there was enough information available to deduce that something was fishy about Idle. Incorrect. While this is how the game played out, it was NOT by design. The conflict between the true Town Secret Power and Idle Thoughts was only made because Idle Thoughts unwisely revealed the "List Of Roles." That action had NOTHING to do with Idle faking being a Scotsman. Sort of. The limitation of the Cabalist power was that it lasted only one turn cycle. Idle's gambit of being "confirmed" by a lynch depended on getting lynched. Trying to get lynched without a really good reason is fishy. The "confirming" that list of roles was that good reason. It's possible that another reason could've been provided, but that was the obvious one built into the Cabalist secret power. Also, don't forget that alignments could possibly change. So even if Idle really had been a Scotsman, their alignment should have still remained suspect until all secret powers had been discovered. No one except those who had read all the rules. That's a too-quick jump to a conclusion. A player who survives a lynch or kill and is announced to be a Scotsman is either 1) a Scotsman or 2) someone under the effect of a secret power. Either way it's useful information.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Dec 18, 2011 17:28:51 GMT -5
So I put in for the Voluntary Reduction in Force (i.e. fancy way of saying "layoff") at my work. Thursday is my last work day. Dec. 31 is my last pay day.
I've been there 13 years which equals 13 weeks of severance. I also have 7 weeks of unused Paid Time Off coming, so I'll have 20 weeks of salary coming to me in total.
Liz might need to leave Chicago to get a job (she's a law school grad who hasn't passed the bar yet, and the legal industry really sucks right now). We'll know by early spring. Doing the math, I realized quitting my job when knowing for certain I'd have to leave would give me no severance at all. By volunteering for the layoff (and there's still going to be about another 35 or so who will be involuntarily laid off next year), I get the severance payment. Plus, I'm a software engineer specializing in Windows programming, so the industry outlook is actually pretty good, even in this suck-ass economy. (And way better than the law outlook, even with someone who's got as impressive a resume as my girlfriend.)
So to make a long story short, I will actually have time and opportunity to play in a mafia game. So count me in for my first game of conspiracy (I've been spoiled observer in the last 3), and first game of mafia since LOTR on the Dope all those moons ago.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Dec 18, 2011 21:40:38 GMT -5
Vote: hoopy Vote: hoopy Vote: hoopy Vote: hoopy Vote: hoopy Vote: hoopy
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Post by peekercpa on Dec 19, 2011 17:08:50 GMT -5
So I put in for the Voluntary Reduction in Force (i.e. fancy way of saying "layoff") at my work. Thursday is my last work day. Dec. 31 is my last pay day. I've been there 13 years which equals 13 weeks of severance. I also have 7 weeks of unused Paid Time Off coming, so I'll have 20 weeks of salary coming to me in total. Liz might need to leave Chicago to get a job (she's a law school grad who hasn't passed the bar yet, and the legal industry really sucks right now). We'll know by early spring. Doing the math, I realized quitting my job when knowing for certain I'd have to leave would give me no severance at all. By volunteering for the layoff (and there's still going to be about another 35 or so who will be involuntarily laid off next year), I get the severance payment. Plus, I'm a software engineer specializing in Windows programming, so the industry outlook is actually pretty good, even in this suck-ass economy. (And way better than the law outlook, even with someone who's got as impressive a resume as my girlfriend.) So to make a long story short, I will actually have time and opportunity to play in a mafia game. So count me in for my first game of conspiracy (I've been spoiled observer in the last 3), and first game of mafia since LOTR on the Dope all those moons ago. this is like getting fruitcake during the holidays. i mean on one side it is a dessert. but on the other hand it sucks. woot the fucking woot. p.s. how the fuck do you turn off this fucking halloween skin? it's fucking driving my ass blind.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Dec 19, 2011 23:54:58 GMT -5
you're still using it? ha ha ha.
click on 'profile' above. click modify profile. scroll down and look for select skin. choose default or whatever skin you like.
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Post by peekercpa on Dec 20, 2011 12:08:57 GMT -5
you're still using it? ha ha ha. click on 'profile' above. click modify profile. scroll down and look for select skin. choose default or whatever skin you like. i don't know if you should say "still using it" as opposed to getting a head start on next year. heh heh. thank og, however.
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Post by sachertorte on Dec 20, 2011 13:04:48 GMT -5
The "confirming" that list of roles was that good reason. It's possible that another reason could've been provided, but that was the obvious one built into the Cabalist secret power. I don't believe this one ounce. I absolutely reject that the list of roles was provided to the Cabalists as a means to support the scotsman lie. That sounds like ex post facto reasoning to me. We all read the rules. Stating otherwise is surprisingly smug. If playing mafia games is going to devolve into legalistic scrutiny of the rules, well then, I guess that's that. That's just a fancy way of saying that someone revealed as a Scotsman is either (1) a Scotsman or (2) not a Scotsman.
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Post by scáthach on Dec 20, 2011 14:16:00 GMT -5
/In
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 20, 2011 15:24:33 GMT -5
The "confirming" that list of roles was that good reason. It's possible that another reason could've been provided, but that was the obvious one built into the Cabalist secret power. I don't believe this one ounce. I absolutely reject that the list of roles was provided to the Cabalists as a means to support the scotsman lie. That sounds like ex post facto reasoning to me. The list was given to support any false claim. In particular, false claims of roles that were not in the game, like Scotsman. The rules are disclosed. Players should not be surprised when the moderator follows the rules. If any rules are unclear, I can try to improve them. I didn't thinkwas unclear, but I added another sentence for emphasis in the current iteration. I'm sorry you and the others didn't realize the intent of that paragraph. Don't discount the usefulness of information about secret powers.
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Post by septimus on Dec 21, 2011 3:05:37 GMT -5
I'll play if you're desperate enough to want me.
If not, I'll volunteer to be spoiled.
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 21, 2011 10:15:58 GMT -5
I'll play if you're desperate enough to want me. If not, I'll volunteer to be spoiled. You're in.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Dec 25, 2011 1:39:38 GMT -5
So I survived a bombing in real life (actually less fun than you might imagine), and now feel up to the challenge of being bombed in fake life. Hey, Cat!
/in
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Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
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Post by Merestil Haye on Dec 25, 2011 7:13:25 GMT -5
Boozy Squid!
Welcome back! Just in time for Christmas greetings.
(And a Conspiracy too.)
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Post by CatInASuit on Dec 26, 2011 14:28:02 GMT -5
So I survived a bombing in real life (actually less fun than you might imagine), and now feel up to the challenge of being bombed in fake life. Hey, Cat! /in Good Grief Squid, hope you're Ok.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Dec 27, 2011 2:09:56 GMT -5
Good Grief Squid, hope you're Ok. Right as rain, old boy. Let's just say it was an interesting year in Central Asia.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Dec 27, 2011 4:42:03 GMT -5
Good Grief Squid, hope you're Ok. Right as rain, old boy. Let's just say it was an interesting year in Central Asia. Hey! We've never met but I've read past games you were in. It's always interesting to me when I learn another Mafia player is near my time zone. Are you in China, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar or elsewhere?
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Post by peekercpa on Dec 27, 2011 10:40:25 GMT -5
Right as rain, old boy. Let's just say it was an interesting year in Central Asia. Hey! We've never met but I've read past games you were in. It's always interesting to me when I learn another Mafia player is near my time zone. Are you in China, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar or elsewhere? i always figured him for living in the state of confusion.
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Post by guiri on Dec 28, 2011 12:56:48 GMT -5
/In please.
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Post by Silver Jan on Dec 28, 2011 12:58:20 GMT -5
/In please
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Post by fubbleskag on Dec 28, 2011 13:17:26 GMT -5
/in if there's still room and no objection to my presence
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 28, 2011 13:27:03 GMT -5
Still room for two more players.
Also, note that all players have the option of requesting one (or more) roles or factions by sending me a PM. No guarantees, of course.
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Post by CatInASuit on Dec 28, 2011 13:46:12 GMT -5
I'm umming and aahing about playing. Mainly because I have little time to play and will probably have less next year. But then again, Squid is playing........ Life is unfair.
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Post by peekercpa on Dec 28, 2011 13:55:50 GMT -5
/in if there's still room and no objection to my presence i object strenuously.
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Post by fubbleskag on Dec 28, 2011 14:05:53 GMT -5
/in if there's still room and no objection to my presence i object strenuously. suck it!
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Post by Silver Jan on Dec 28, 2011 14:14:44 GMT -5
I see peeker is having fun already!
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Dec 28, 2011 18:39:54 GMT -5
Hey! We've never met but I've read past games you were in. It's always interesting to me when I learn another Mafia player is near my time zone. Are you in China, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar or elsewhere? I promise, I won't be as bad this time as I was in those game. Actually, that's a complete lie. I'll just hide it better this time. I'm afraid I'm no longer in Asia, but I was in Central Asia, not Southeast Asia. Afghanistan and Pakistan, mainly, with a very nice weeklong jaunt in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan at one point. Also, I categorically forbid you to duck out now, Catina. I know you're not actually, busy, but instead terrified of my long-awaited revenge.
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