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Post by Pollux Oil on Oct 5, 2012 13:53:53 GMT -5
Day Vote CountJustBeingGinger (11 votes) - Penalty Vote, Parzival, gnarlycharlie, Meeko, sinjin, dizzymrslizzy, silverjan, askthepizzaguy, storyteller0910, Rich Beckman, BillMc Colby11 (5 votes) - CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, gnarlycharlie, storyteller0910, BillMc, Suburban Plankton Inner Stickler (4 votes) - Colby11, peekercpa, dizzymrslizzy, Suburban Plankton KidVermicious - (2 votes) CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, Rich Beckman Suburban Plankton (2 votes) - askthepizzaguy, Sister Coyote CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (1 vote) - peekercpa crys (1 vote) - Meeko With these votes, JustbeingGinger will be lynched.Does the immediate end-of-Day occur when every single vote is for the lynchee aside from the lynchees, or when every single player has at least one vote on the lynchee (with other votes possibly for other players) At least one vote on the lynchee. If everybody in the game sans the lynchee is voting for the lynchee, the Day will automatically end regardless of other votes. [green]Regarding the Mercenary, you wrote
Does Town constitute "an allied group with the same win condition" for the purpose of the quoted statement?[/green] Sorry, I will clarify here. People who have the same win condition can win the Mercenary back-to-back. Only actual groups cannot win them on consecutive nights. So a mason group cannot have one mason bid on the Merc, and then the next night another mason, and then the next night a third mason, etc. Scum can't pass the mercenary back and forth between them. Any third-party groups that can talk and share the same wincon can't pass it back and forth either. Is that clear?
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 13:56:50 GMT -5
It goes without saying that whoever gains the Merc tonight uses it to protect Colby.
If you gain the Merc and you don't use it to protect Colby, you're not town or town-friendly.
I hope this is all so obvious that I don't need to increase the font size to ensure it gets read. If we fail on so basic a point we deserve to lose as a team.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 13:59:35 GMT -5
Pizza, I'm having some trouble with your claim... My ability is to tag certain players, and it prevents them, VERY specifically, from being killed by any vigilante that is working ON THE TOWN SIDE. So far, so good Still with you here This is where I start to get lost. I understand that if you tag players, and a Town Vig then targets the players you tagged, then they can't be killed. But I don't see anything that says your protection only applies to Town players; what if you tag a Scum? wouldn't that prevent the Scum from being Vigged? It seems to me that would be a 'bad thing'. "starting townie"? So you're a Third Party who can be recruited, but you're "starting townie"...meaning you might change your mind and "go scum"? Or are we supposed to interpret that some other way? This would carry more weight if we had any particular reason to believe you. Since we don't, it's just noise. Unfortunately, all this wpuld do is confirm that you have an ability to make people pee blue (sometimes). Not a lot of help, as I'm sure you agree. I'm OK with this part. Why is Ginger a good lynch? You did say "I was roleblocked, no further objections to Ginger's lynch". the fact that you said that all in one sentence implies that your vote is somehow related to the fact that you were blocked. Do you think Ginger blocked you? If not, why are you voting for her?
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:00:20 GMT -5
How do we know that colby isn't simply making the same leap of logic that you are and false claiming a role he thinks people would buy?
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Post by Rich Beckman on Oct 5, 2012 14:00:38 GMT -5
Things do look bad for Ginger. Her posting an edited PM was forced and then she denied editing it. An aside. I am a little confused why she was in such a rush to post it. She arrived to play the game at 1:13 pm Monday She posts her PM on Wednesday at 9:40 am when Night Two still had 28 hours to go. [/aside] I am curious about PizzaGuy's comment that he was role blocked when he attempted to do whatever it was he was trying to do to Ginger (sounds like he was investigating, but since he has refrained from such language...) I was roleblocked, no further objections to Ginger's lynch. Can't prove squat if I'm roleblocked. <snip> Unless her PM is a compete fabrication, it does not sound like she could role block herself. Are there any innocent explanations for the role block? The only one that comes to my mind is if PizzaGuy is lying about it. In the meantime Vote: JustBeingGinger bleachedLet's see. I was wrong about her denying the edit. PizzaGuy has pointed out that someone could easily have been blocking his role for an entirely different purpose. This leaves that she posted an edited PM and did it in a rush. The rush can be explained by "I have a lot going on in my life right now, major move, getting married, 5 yr old" ...and really, so can the not thinking it through edit. Ginger says "Scum know I am not scum, that's a fact jack..." which is all well and good, but not being Scum this does not help me. You explain, well enough I guess, that your power is worthless to a third party. But you do not discuss how useful it would be to Scum, hoping the "Scum know I am not scum, that's a fact jack..." comment will cover that lapse. If your PM as you received it said Town Hostile, it is understandable that you might be confused. It is also understandable why some of us wonder why you did not message Pollux and ask if there was an error. If your PM as you received it said Scum Hostile, it makes perfect sense that you, seeing that your role could be construed as beneficial to Town and feeling pressured by Pleo's reveal, realized you could simply flip your alignment from Scum to Town and all would be good. But you failed to realize in this game that Town was also considered Hostile. That last seems the most likely to me. When I started typing this post, I was thinking I would retract my vote, but I've typed my way out of that idea. [oog] Good luck with the move. Congratulations on the nuptials! And the five year old!! Nothin' better than kids. [/oog]
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 14:01:39 GMT -5
Burby...Pizza specifically spelled out he was voting you because of your vote on Colby. Right there in the part you quoted. vote: suburban planktonunvote: colbyYes, I know he did. That's why I said "Well, at least you provided a reason for your vote this time..." Is that the reason you're voting for me as well?
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:01:44 GMT -5
Starting townie is pizzaguy for initial role pm alignment is Town.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 14:02:59 GMT -5
Colby, I'm going to need some more details please. To be honest, I'm more likely to vote you now than I was before, because I don't believe you. Why will Town lose if we lynch you? If you can't guess this based on the public data, then you're not reading the game. I guess I'm as dense as KidV. what is it about Colby that we're missing?
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 5, 2012 14:04:08 GMT -5
Also, after careful consideration:
vote: justbeingginger
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:07:10 GMT -5
If you can't guess this based on the public data, then you're not reading the game. I guess I'm as dense as KidV. what is it about Colby that we're missing? Colby and pizzaguy are insinuating that colby's night action is to target a player and change their wincon from 3rd party to town.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 5, 2012 14:08:23 GMT -5
Burby:
I voted Colby because his play has been pinging me all game, but nothing specific.
I'm voting you because you seem to be talking out both sides of your mouth WRT pizza's accusation. First you address his question as though you understood it, then turn around and make it seem as though it's not clear whether he voted you for your vote on Colby or if it had to do with your vote on Inner.
And I'm voting ginger because I want her to have a solid enough lead that whoever successfully bid on the merc doesn't have to come out and claim at the end of the day again.
Inner: I for one am not ruling out the possibility, but I see no reason not to allow colby enough rope to hang himself at this point.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:10:44 GMT -5
I've been wanting to lynch colby from day 1 and I would like someone who's against a colby lynch to explain to me why his claim must be true. Especially since Pizza has now declared any protectors who don't target colby are working against town which seems A)heavy-handed and B)presumptive. What if scum have a swapper? What if the only role left is a paranoid doc?
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:11:27 GMT -5
I will clarify.
In my role PM it states that the tag only wards off like-minded townie attackers. The tag acts as a beacon that wards them away. Town vigilantes want to kill successfully, for town, not kill townies. My tag enables them to do that. It's completely useless on scumbags, and third party hostiles, because it will allow the vig to occur in that circumstance.
It's perhaps the most creative and welcome role complementing a vigilante since the detective, or the doctor. This would rank right up there as just as useful.
I didn't figure it was so critical or that I was so alone as a townie, or I wouldn't have half-claimed so early. That was a misstep on my part.
Had I known from the start that I was one of town's best roles simply because town had so few roles, I would have shaddap. But I also don't know how to use this role without publicly telling the vigilante who I've tagged and is safe to attack.
The vigilante is not on a private team with me or anything, so I MUST publicly declare who I'm tagging or I'm nearly useless as a role.
Starting townie means I began game as townie, and due to my role, I can NEVER EVER be converted away from the town side under any circumstances.
Convenient, I'm sure, but if I am forced to fully reveal (which means I'm dead, because I'll not reveal the rest until my death) that will immediately show you why I can NEVER turn to the dark side.
I'm Jedi for life, and that's why I am not being shy about trying to direct town's efforts away from the critical mislynches and trying to argue why we should give people the benefit of the doubt, and try to identify fellow townies from their behavior and other clues, as opposed to merely scumhunting.
We have to know who we can trust, it's a conversion game. Unfortunately this is going to lead to some non-democratic situations where what townies we know exist have to shout from the rooftops that certain things are not good for town, because they won't be inherently obvious or important to third party friendly roles who are essentially townies until proven otherwise.
-If I can prove that I made someone pee blue a certain night, that's as good as proving I was there, and therefore:
Not murdering Not roleblocking Not converting
Etc
Such data is CRITICAL if you bother to put it into a spreadsheet and use it. You can actually SOLVE the game via data collection in this game. If you try.
I don't think Ginger blocked me. I think scum blocked me.
My vote on Ginger is because there's no longer any way for me to successfully tag someone while I'm being roleblocked, which means the vigilante has no way of being warded off by my tags. As such, we're better off lynching the most scummy player rather than leaving it to me and the vigilante.
Because otherwise you risk outing/hitting more critical townies and 3rd party roles unnecessarily.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 14:12:24 GMT -5
If you can't guess this based on the public data, then you're not reading the game. I guess I'm as dense as KidV. what is it about Colby that we're missing? I'll take a stab at answering my own question here, now that I've reread things. Colby appears to be claiming to be a Town Recruiter, and that he recruited Pleonast. You're right, it is pretty darn obvious, but it does beg the questions: Why did he claim, when Ginger was the vote leader by such a wide margin? Why didn't he just make a full claim? I suppose the answer to the first question could be "because he put a bunch of votes on the Mercenary and is now in danger of being lynched", but even in that case I think it's a bit early for a claim. As to the second question, I suppose it's just a matter of playstyle. In any case unvote Colby11My vote was a reaction to his unsupported ultimatum. Since he's now supported it, there's no reason for my vote. I will point out that even if he is the one and only Town Recruiter, I think he was engaging in a bit of hyperbole there...
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:13:48 GMT -5
How do we know that colby isn't simply making the same leap of logic that you are and false claiming a role he thinks people would buy? Maybe he is, and if he's scum that's good play on his part. The inherent risk is beyond obviously too great. Any investigator or otherwise should check Colby for being town just to play it safe, but the bottom line ladies and gentlemen is that occasionally in a mafia game, there's a role that you don't lynch upon claiming. A town converter is game-losing for the town to lynch, for obvious reasons. That's worse than losing ANY other role. Doctor, investigator, mason. More important. I know you know this. Why am I explaining it.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 14:14:36 GMT -5
I'm voting you because you seem to be talking out both sides of your mouth WRT pizza's accusation. First you address his question as though you understood it, then turn around and make it seem as though it's not clear whether he voted you for your vote on Colby or if it had to do with your vote on Inner. OK, fair enough, I guess. For the record, I understood that Pizza had a reason; I didn't understand exactly what the reason was. Hence my statement, and my question.
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Oct 5, 2012 14:14:54 GMT -5
Regarding my play in this game, I do have to say that part of it does rest on my shoulders. I feel like my play as of late has been anything but great. Part of it is the fact that I am stuck with a stupid iPad where I can't read and take notes at the same time, like I was doing beforehand. I now have to rely on my memory, which sucks, so my cases have gone from good to just plain awful.
Yes, I felt pressure. I don't know why I cracked, except to take the blame, and try to keep playing. I feel like my real life issues are hindering me, so I will try to take a break after this game.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 14:17:58 GMT -5
I've been wanting to lynch colby from day 1 and I would like someone who's against a colby lynch to explain to me why his claim must be true. Especially since Pizza has now declared any protectors who don't target colby are working against town which seems A)heavy-handed and B)presumptive. What if scum have a swapper? What if the only role left is a paranoid doc? I don't think Colby's claim must be true. It might be true, but there's really no evidence to back it up. For that matter, he hasn't actually claimed at all. As far as Pizza goes, he's being his usual heavy-handed and presumptive self. Which, unfortunately, tells us nothing.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:18:27 GMT -5
I've been wanting to lynch colby from day 1 and I would like someone who's against a colby lynch to explain to me why his claim must be true. Oh GAWD I'm not saying it MUST be true! Jebus H Christmas. You still don't chance it, and you KNOW it. Don't act like you don't know that already. There is ZERO reason he MUST be lynched today. PARTICULARLY with that claim. You've got all game to determine if he's full of shit. Being wrong here and lynching him, is nigh-game ending. Lynching him later is far less damaging, and you can still attempt to scan him. Although really, if he's not the town converter.... then he won't know who the town converter has been converting. His claim is ESPECIALLY dumb if he isn't what he says he is. Because he could be asked who he converted last night. And he can say the wrong name, and die now. This one is a call that doesn't take a detective, or even a pizzaguy ranting about what has to be done. You guys are highly experienced veteran players. This is ABC's to you. Skepticism is always warranted, but skepticism must always be moderated by a cost/risk analysis. Where is your cost/risk analysis here? Why aren't you thinking about this?
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:18:49 GMT -5
I know you know this. Why am I explaining it. I'm quite stupid, actually and often need people to lay out their thinking piece by piece. Also, all alignments and wincon changes in this game are voluntary. (I suspect it will be a choice between change or die unchanged, but at least it's a choice.)
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:21:28 GMT -5
I'm not convinced there is a town converter and I would like Colby to name who he targeted last night.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 14:22:38 GMT -5
I will clarify. In my role PM it states that the tag only wards off like-minded townie attackers. The tag acts as a beacon that wards them away. Town vigilantes want to kill successfully, for town, not kill townies. My tag enables them to do that. It's completely useless on scumbags, and third party hostiles, because it will allow the vig to occur in that circumstance. Perhaps you're not explaining it well, or perhaps I'm not understanding it well, but it still seems to me that your ability will work perfectly well to protect anyone. Town, Third Party, or Scum. So it will prevent a Town Vigilante from making a kill, but it doesn't guarantee that will actually be a positive thing for Town. I'm not saying I think you're lying; I;m saying I don't think your ability is quite as gloriously useful as you appear to. So why do you think Ginger is Scummy? You still haven't explained that.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:22:58 GMT -5
As far as Pizza goes, he's being his usual heavy-handed and presumptive self. Forgive me. I've been trying to be very diplomatic and I'm in a circumstance where I must get the point across in no uncertain terms. Listen, if you were in my shoes, you'd be presuming and being heavy handed here as well. This is not a pizzaguy flaw, this is the inherent risk that comes with the job of being a townie. Sometimes you have to say HEY, that action you're doing is bad for town. It is part of the job. And here, you have to see, there is no reason you guys did not deserve a heavy handed treatment. In my view, it's obvious. And I have no personal knowledge of detective results or the game setup. I am able to determine this simply by making the reasonable assumption that most people in this game are reporting truthful information and some aren't. That alone makes the sheer odds of him not being what he says he is, astronomical. Think about what has been claimed so far, and understand like 4-5 people have to be lying, in concert, for him to not be what he's claiming. It's ridiculous to suspect him here.
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Oct 5, 2012 14:24:04 GMT -5
I'm not convinced there is a town converter and I would like Colby to name who he targeted last night. *points at body #2 in the color*
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:24:11 GMT -5
I'm not convinced there is a town converter and I would like Colby to name who he targeted last night. If he does that, we also deserve to lose. You're still not playing with any sense of town's safety and secrecy in mind. If this happens, I am virtually resigning from the game, playing it out via vote alone, because this is beyond ridiculous. Nobody should think this is a correct move at all.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:25:28 GMT -5
Well that's safe since the person in question is dead and likely wouldn't have started the game as townie.
If this was a living player, however, that would have been boneheaded as hell.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:25:57 GMT -5
That's convenient.
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Post by Rich Beckman on Oct 5, 2012 14:26:35 GMT -5
<snip> [green]Regarding the Mercenary, you wrote
Does Town constitute "an allied group with the same win condition" for the purpose of the quoted statement?[/green] Sorry, I will clarify here. People who have the same win condition can win the Mercenary back-to-back. Only actual groups cannot win them on consecutive nights. So a mason group cannot have one mason bid on the Merc, and then the next night another mason, and then the next night a third mason, etc. Scum can't pass the mercenary back and forth between them. Any third-party groups that can talk and share the same wincon can't pass it back and forth either. Is that clear? Clear enough I guess... Unvote: Kid Vermicious I am open to the interpretations of others.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:27:39 GMT -5
Perhaps you're not explaining it well, or perhaps I'm not understanding it well, but it still seems to me that your ability will work perfectly well to protect anyone. Town, Third Party, or Scum. So it will prevent a Town Vigilante from making a kill, but it doesn't guarantee that will actually be a positive thing for Town. A townie tagged by pizzaguy is impervious to the vig. A scum or third party is not regardless of whether they're tagged or not.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:28:26 GMT -5
Well that's safe since the person in question is dead and likely wouldn't have started the game as townie. What is there about backup doc/bodyguard that says to you Third Party?
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