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Post by Mahaloth on Jun 29, 2014 8:16:27 GMT -5
Mahaloth, are you allowed to sell or give away your soapstones? Nope.
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Post by dizzymrslizzy on Jun 29, 2014 8:36:35 GMT -5
Interesting Mahaloth, so there's a second merchant as well floating out there...
I'm going to have to read through that list in more detail, but I'm intrigued!
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Post by Chronos on Jun 29, 2014 11:07:50 GMT -5
Cookies, the term "Mafia" is not usually used to refer to all of the enemies of Town: A serial killer, for instance, is an enemy of Town, but is not usually referred to as "Mafia". The Mafia is specifically a hostile faction where the members know each other, and which can make one kill per Night. Other hostile factions may exist (and in fact, the setup implies that they do), and may work differently: They might recruit instead of killing, they might not know each other, they might be only a single individual instead of a team, and so on.
I'm inclined to believe Mahaloth's claim (but did Storyteller really put your role name in yellow? Blech), but have some questions. Can a person with only the default single soul trade it away? Does transferring of items (or souls or soapstones) require an action, or can it be done in addition to using an item in the same cycle?
Also, Mahaloth, a question for you personally: How much is advice worth to you? I can think of ways in which you could more effectively pursue your win condition. Are you interested in offering anything (inventory or other assistance) for that?
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Post by guiri on Jun 29, 2014 12:46:54 GMT -5
In other news, I'm stuffed full of fish. Nice meal? I'm wary of guiri. he seconds Chronos but nothing more. why not drop a vote? it's not like he can't change it later. still early in the game. could also support his lynch. Nice cake? It's not OK for Chronos to vote anti-town but it's suspicious that I don't? he's going after anti-town rather than scum. I don't think he's "scum", there have got to be more subtle ways to signal if that's what he's doing, but I don't see what he could be, or why anyone would trust him. I'm not a recruiter, I can't make anyone do anything. But I can allow people to leave their covenant however they make the choice to leave. Can you release Swammer's from his covenant? Worse, you say you can change alignments. So how can we hold you to any alignment, if you claim the ability to change them? Can you not change alignment, Meeko? Well, now I remember why I probably should not have signed up. I really enjoy reading the thread and trying to figure things out. I find it work to actually try to put my thoughts together and write a nice coherent post. You're saying you forgot it was a game of mafia? I agree with Mentalguy on this. Chronos is hammering away at abstain and I don't think abstain's behavior warrants it yet. What's the threshold? @ Mahaloth, you have unlimited orange soapstones and could have spammed every player in the game with your offers anonymously yet you chose to claim? Doesn't that sort of spoil the game for you and your opponent?
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jun 29, 2014 15:11:00 GMT -5
Cookies, the term "Mafia" is not usually used to refer to all of the enemies of Town: A serial killer, for instance, is an enemy of Town, but is not usually referred to as "Mafia". The Mafia is specifically a hostile faction where the members know each other, and which can make one kill per Night. Other hostile factions may exist (and in fact, the setup implies that they do), and may work differently: They might recruit instead of killing, they might not know each other, they might be only a single individual instead of a team, and so on. I'm inclined to believe Mahaloth's claim (but did Storyteller really put your role name in yellow? Blech), but have some questions. Can a person with only the default single soul trade it away? Does transferring of items (or souls or soapstones) require an action, or can it be done in addition to using an item in the same cycle? Also, Mahaloth, a question for you personally: How much is advice worth to you? I can think of ways in which you could more effectively pursue your win condition. Are you interested in offering anything (inventory or other assistance) for that? That is a crock and you know it. Ppl use mafia in general all the time.
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Post by Chronos on Jun 29, 2014 15:17:44 GMT -5
I have never once seen anyone use "mafia" in a sense that would include, for instance, a serial killer. Rather, people often say things like "don't try to lynch the serial killer; focus on the Mafia instead".
In any event, even if there is someone somewhere who has used the word that way, I'm not that person, so don't try to read any hypocrisy into my use of "mafia" to mean "mafia".
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Colby11
Administrator
Creator of Hell's Kitchen Mafia
Posts: 1,193
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Post by Colby11 on Jun 29, 2014 17:27:38 GMT -5
Maybe it's just me, but normally I differentiate between scum and serial killers. As one of the usual players here, getting worked up over that term is silly. So silly that the only reason why we are having this conversation is because Chronos is on the block. On the other hand, I don't buy abstain's claim about being a town recruiter, because I wouldn't play it like that ( and I have played as a town recruiter before.) Now, I probably should put down a vote, so abstain it is
Vote: Vote Abstain
Abstain's claim doesn't make sense because as a town recruiter, you would want to stay low and off everyone's radar. It makes me wonder if perhaps they are the other merchant and has wares that can allow conversion?
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Post by abstain on Jun 29, 2014 17:49:18 GMT -5
Serious question, are some of you intentionally misreading my posts, or do you not understand what I am saying?
I do NOT recruit or convert people. NOT. N-O-T.
I ALLOW people to leave their covenant. ALLOW. A-L-L-O-W. (Enable is also a suitable word).
THEY make the decision to leave, I just give them the choice. THEY. T-H-E-Y.
I can't make them do ANYTHING!
Of course I have no intention of actually using this power until I have a target, but I wanted to make sure that the potential parties that could benefit knew about it.
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Post by swammerdami on Jun 29, 2014 18:06:12 GMT -5
I'll eventually have to decide between the two Lynch candidates, but I don't have a real Scum read on either. I guess abstain is the more likely to be Town -- mostly because of the confident way he says he's Town. (Yes, I'm gullible.) But chronos has a good point. Without further explanation, abstain's offer appears to be anti-Town, not pro-Town. I'd like more information from abstain: why does he think his solicitation is pro-Town? Can he assist Players to join Town? To leave or to join Scum? To switch from one non-Hostile Covenant to another? What is the nature of his help: information, advice, or special power? Vague messages that seem anti-Town cannot be defended with nothing better than "I must be Town! Scum wouldn't post something so obviously anti-Town!"
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jun 29, 2014 20:44:41 GMT -5
I have never once seen anyone use "mafia" in a sense that would include, for instance, a serial killer. Rather, people often say things like "don't try to lynch the serial killer; focus on the Mafia instead". In any event, even if there is someone somewhere who has used the word that way, I'm not that person, so don't try to read any hypocrisy into my use of "mafia" to mean "mafia". I'm not calling you a hypocrite. I'm calling you someone who is either talking past people because you refuse to stoop to the base level of using or interpreting 'mafia' as a generic term OR you're pot-stirring to anti-town ends by saying basically 'oh noes! we can't rely on good old fashioned scum-hunting because there might not be traditional scum', which is a crock also.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jun 29, 2014 20:48:40 GMT -5
I'll eventually have to decide between the two Lynch candidates, but I don't have a real Scum read on either. I guess abstain is the more likely to be Town -- mostly because of the confident way he says he's Town. (Yes, I'm gullible.) But chronos has a good point. Without further explanation, abstain's offer appears to be anti-Town, not pro-Town. I'd like more information from abstain: why does he think his solicitation is pro-Town? Can he assist Players to join Town? To leave or to join Scum? To switch from one non-Hostile Covenant to another? What is the nature of his help: information, advice, or special power? Vague messages that seem anti-Town cannot be defended with nothing better than "I must be Town! Scum wouldn't post something so obviously anti-Town!" I don't think I can see the 'confidence' tags with this forum skin.
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Post by texcat on Jun 30, 2014 9:08:08 GMT -5
Vote count
Abstain(5): dizzy[23], Chronos[33], peeker[52], Meeko[72], Colby[96] Chronos(4): Gnarlycharlie[50], cookies[59], MentalGuy[74], Inner Stickler[80] Sinjin(1): Abstain[5] Paulwhoisaghost(1): swammerdami[53]
Day will end at 12:30PM Eastern time on Thursday, July 3.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Jun 30, 2014 10:12:24 GMT -5
I can't agree with the cases mad so far against abstain. Yes, his role of 'Town Recruitment Enabler' does sound rather unusual, but not a lot about this game seems terrible 'usual' so far. That said, a thought occurred to me as I was reading through the thread this morning; what if abstain is deliberately painting a target on himself, attempting to get himself 'killed'? Remember, getting lynched doesn't mean death, it means becoming hollowed. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that someone in this game could have certain abilities that only work if they are hollowed. I have no actual evidence to back up this theory, but when I read a post like this one Not many votes. Disappointing. For the record, a vote for me is a vote knowingly against town. There is no possibility I do any of this as a mafia member, and those that are voting me should definitely be looked at. It isn't scum hunting and it isn't pro town to lynch me. Discuss all you like, but the sheer fact that I am extraordinarily unlikely to be mafia means there will be better targets today. it's hard to envision any other reason someone would make it. Regarding Chronos' "I don't even know if there is a 'mafia' in this game" statement, I think I understand what he's saying. Generally there is one large Town faction and one primary Mafia faction, with generally one or more smaller factions with their own agendas. In this game we have one large Town faction, but we may or may not have a 'primary' Mafia faction; rather we may have multiple 'anti-Town' factions in competition with each other. So in this case, instead of focusing energies on eliminating 'Mafia', and perhaps leaving 'Third-Party' players to deal with at a later date, we should instead simply try to eliminate anyone who is seen as 'anti-Town'. But even though I understand what Chronos is saying (at least, I think I do), I can't help but agree with Cookies here: I'm not calling you a hypocrite. I'm calling you someone who is either talking past people because you refuse to stoop to the base level of using or interpreting 'mafia' as a generic term OR you're pot-stirring to anti-town ends by saying basically 'oh noes! we can't rely on good old fashioned scum-hunting because there might not be traditional scum', which is a crock also. There's just something about the way in which Chronos is presenting himself that's rubbing me the wrong way.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Jun 30, 2014 10:57:44 GMT -5
I'm having a fine start to the game: I have acute sinusitis and have just gotten home from vacation. Doesn't look like there's *too* much to catch up on. Yet.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Jun 30, 2014 14:48:53 GMT -5
Yes, of course I'm going after anti-Town. That's because I'm Town, and that's what Town should do. In most games, "scum" and "anti-Town" are synonymous, and even in games where they're not (as this one is implied to be), it's anti-Town that Town should worry about, not just Scum. I strongly disagree that "scum" and "anti-Town" are synonyms. Occasionally they're profound antonyms. Town Play can be anti-Town just as easily as Scum Play can. Full-claiming on Day One, for example, could be taken as anti-Town play, but is not necessarily Scum play. Getting frustrated and digging one's heels in and refusing to explain one's thinking even when other people are practically begging one to explain is anti-Town -- but I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that when they were Scum. I would rather vote someone for scummy behavior than "anti-Town" behavior. Odds are far greater that I'm going to nail someone for Town-on-Town stupidity if I treat the two the same. Lynching anti-Town third party absolutely does help Town. 50/50 chance. We can do better, yes, even on Day One. As for folks on the Town team who play anti-Town, they should be lynched, too. Yes, it's unfortunate to lynch Townies, but the problem is, we don't know anyone's alignment, just how they act. If someone's acting in a way that hurts Town, then the simplest explanation is that they want to hurt Town. And if we don't punish overtly anti-Town play, then we're giving Scum a license to do it. Much better to force the Scum to help Town, lest they be lynched. Chronos, this is bull. You know it's bull. You know "anti-Town"!=Scum and it bothers me, kind of a lot, that you're arguing this way. In fact, I think the argument could be made that your argument is "anti-Town", and by that standard I should be voting you. At the moment, I'm not particularly getting a Hostile vibe from you, so I'm not going to vote you. Not to mention that giving "pro-Town" actions a pass is a handy-dandy way to let Scum be in the clear. After all, Scum are going to do their best to (at the very least, appear to) help Town during the Day and harm them at Night. Scum love it when they get passed over for a lynch because they're "helping" Town and Loud Aggressive Frustrated Townie gets themselves lynched for being a LAFT. Which I think, honestly, is where you're headed.
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Post by peekercpa on Jun 30, 2014 14:50:49 GMT -5
i guess i just don't get get the ALLOW thingy. if abstain hits the jackpot and ALLOWS scum to defect and the scum goes whatever. that's game over, right? i just can't believe that story would devise a game that could potentially end in one Day. something doesn't feel right about that scenario. am i just not parsing something correctly?
and remember i don't know the color from beans for this plot. so most of my thoughts are about mafia in general. town = good, scum = bad, 3rd party = maybe innocuous or maybe dangerous. add different flavorings and voila, there you go.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Jun 30, 2014 14:55:11 GMT -5
I'll eventually have to decide between the two Lynch candidates, but I don't have a real Scum read on either. ARGH. I hate this SO MUCH. (Sorry, swammer, it's not you, it's the argument.) I'm trying not to get shouty. All yous are the generic you and not swammer in specific. It is not necessary to choose between the two Lynch candidates. If you think neither of them are Scum then for the soul's sake go looking elsewhere! There are twentymumble people in the game right now (too lazy to go looking). And if you have a one-off, those who go back and count votes will know who was suspicious of whom from the get-go. If everyone piles on one or two candidates, then we don't have that. Right now, my gut says the abstain vs. chronos show is probably White {or White-aligned) on White (or White-aligned). Therefore, without further evidence or further action from either of them, I'm not voting there. I'm looking at the rest of youse.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Jun 30, 2014 15:02:49 GMT -5
i guess i just don't get get the ALLOW thingy. if abstain hits the jackpot and ALLOWS scum to defect and the scum goes whatever. that's game over, right? i just can't believe that story would devise a game that could potentially end in one Day. something doesn't feel right about that scenario. am i just not parsing something correctly? and remember i don't know the color from beans for this plot. so most of my thoughts are about mafia in general. town = good, scum = bad, 3rd party = maybe innocuous or maybe dangerous. add different flavorings and voila, there you go. As I understand it: If someone wishes to leave their faction, abstain is claiming to be able to facilitate the transition. If I am reading this correctly, the claim is not that abstain is going to reach out and smack you with his wand of "ALLOW" (or whatever), but rather if you're unhappy in your faction you can go to abstain and say, hey, buddy: gimme a hit of that ALLOW shit you got. But we don't know: a) that everyone has the eligibility to leave their faction; b) how abstain could facilitate; c) that abstain is who he says he is and can do what he says he can do; or d) Um. Some other thing that I now no longer remember that I don't know because I just had a coughing jag and apparently destroyed those brain cells.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Jun 30, 2014 16:39:33 GMT -5
I'll eventually have to decide between the two Lynch candidates, but I don't have a real Scum read on either. It is not necessary to choose between the two Lynch candidates. If you think neither of them are Scum then for the soul's sake go looking elsewhere! There are twentymumble people in the game right now (too lazy to go looking). And if you have a one-off, those who go back and count votes will know who was suspicious of whom from the get-go. If everyone piles on one or two candidates, then we don't have that. I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. and I think swammerdami should know better than to make such an argument on Day 1 of a game. vote: swammerdami
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Post by Mahaloth on Jun 30, 2014 17:15:03 GMT -5
Just because I may die and lose my stock, I don't wan t people to get screwed out of their order.
And, I have received several proposals(bids?) for miracles or sorceries via PM. I will accept all bids for all powers now through near the end of each Night. Because there is always a chance of me dying at Night, I will close all current bids/deals just before the end of Night....specifically depending on when I am available to check PM's.
If you have no PM capability and want to bid in thread, good on you and I will accept them. I just assume most will be private.
Mahaloth's Shop of Miracles and Sorceries appreciates your business.
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Post by MentalGuy on Jun 30, 2014 19:37:11 GMT -5
Can you release Swammer's from his covenant? Am I missing something? Did Swammer declare a certain covenant? Is there a reason you think abstain knows Swammerdami's covenant? You're saying you forgot it was a game of mafia? Yes, I thought I was signing up for a game of online Tiddley-Winks.
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Post by sinjin on Jun 30, 2014 19:37:29 GMT -5
Just because I may die and lose my stock, I don't wan t people to get screwed out of their order. And, I have received several proposals(bids?) for miracles or sorceries via PM. I will accept all bids for all powers now through near the end of each Night. Because there is always a chance of me dying at Night, I will close all current bids/deals just before the end of Night....specifically depending on when I am available to check PM's. If you have no PM capability and want to bid in thread, good on you and I will accept them. I just assume most will be private. Mahaloth's Shop of Miracles and Sorceries appreciates your business. Hahahaha, I wondered about how the souls as currency was going to work. You have the bestest role ever Maha. Congrats and hope you live long and prosper.
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Post by MentalGuy on Jun 30, 2014 19:50:30 GMT -5
He thought I was using deprived as a breadcrumb, you said it was curious that he called that out. Why is it curious? Why did it matter that he did not have me IDed in the quote? I thought the entire notion of breadcrumbs, were things that were supposed to be kept hidden. Things that build over time. In the best case, the person laying them out comes back to them and offers up the ..... Cipher to figure them out with. The key - the methodology to read them. What is the motivation then, to pull back the curtain of the great and powerful Oz so soon? Is there town motivation to shut down bread crumbs immediately? I believe mafia is easier to follow, and therefore play, when posts are properly attributed. I think a good half of us, if not more, have problems with the tags and quote boxes as they are, we don't need people intentionally messing up quote formats. (Disclosured Bleaches and Snips notwithstanding.) Yes, a good breadcrumb is hidden, but if someone thinks they see one, they don't necessarily know the alignment of the person making it. It might be beneficial to let everyone know what you have seen. I agree that it is easier to follow if everything is properly attributed, but you seemed to have an accusatory tone toward abstain in that post. It is not necessary to choose between the two Lynch candidates. If you think neither of them are Scum then for the soul's sake go looking elsewhere! There are twentymumble people in the game right now (too lazy to go looking). And if you have a one-off, those who go back and count votes will know who was suspicious of whom from the get-go. If everyone piles on one or two candidates, then we don't have that. I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. and I think swammerdami should know better than to make such an argument on Day 1 of a game. vote: swammerdami You really think this is the thing you have seen so far that is most likely to indicate scum? Players have varying views on whether you should choose between lynch candidates or whether it is better to vote for someone you consider more likely to be scum even if it is a one-off. He states up front what he is planning on doing. He doesn't seem to be trying to hide his vote in among the others by not casting suspicion on others.
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Post by sinjin on Jun 30, 2014 19:51:51 GMT -5
I'll eventually have to decide between the two Lynch candidates, but I don't have a real Scum read on either. ARGH. I hate this SO MUCH. (Sorry, swammer, it's not you, it's the argument.) I'm trying not to get shouty. All yous are the generic you and not swammer in specific. It is not necessary to choose between the two Lynch candidates. If you think neither of them are Scum then for the soul's sake go looking elsewhere! There are twentymumble people in the game right now (too lazy to go looking). And if you have a one-off, those who go back and count votes will know who was suspicious of whom from the get-go. If everyone piles on one or two candidates, then we don't have that. Right now, my gut says the abstain vs. chronos show is probably White {or White-aligned) on White (or White-aligned). Therefore, without further evidence or further action from either of them, I'm not voting there. I'm looking at the rest of youse. I hate this too, but you beat me to it. We still have 3 days to go. This thinking is bs.
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Post by peekercpa on Jun 30, 2014 20:20:44 GMT -5
sin. first i am getting frustratrated with this whole quoting posts and stuff. not with you sin. change cames hard for the elderly.
what thinking is b.s.?
the thinking that you have to vote for lynch leader (b.s.)
the thinking that you vote for the person that you find scummiest and why (not b.s.)
and i know that is kind of a softball but i just want to clarify. things change so just want to make sure that i am at least in the same book, if not even remotely on the same page. and maybe i am as thick as lead. but all of these really complicated scenarios and stuff really kind of boil down to the same thing - to me. town needs scum and hostile 3rds dead. scum need to have enough firepower to control the lynch. hostile 3rds need to do whatever they need to do. have i really missed anything when you distill it down?
back in a bit
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Post by storyteller0910 on Jun 30, 2014 20:22:40 GMT -5
VERY IMPORTANT REMINDER:
It is required that the moderating team (texcat, Lightfoot, and me) be copied on every game PM sent via soapstone. Please please please don't forget to do this, and if you receive a soapstone message on which we are mistakenly not copied, please alert the sender to this so that they can rectify the error. The game is specifically balanced to allow limited, not free, private communication between living players.
Thanks!
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Post by Chronos on Jun 30, 2014 21:35:05 GMT -5
Sister Coyote, I know that "anti-Town" is not necessarily synonymous with "Scum". They're not synonymous in a game where there are other hostile factions. In which case Town should be going after all anti-Town, not just the Scum.
I also know that it's possible for someone aligned with the Town to nonetheless act in an anti-Town way. I'd love to say "I won't vote for a Town player who's acting anti-Town", but I can't say that, because I don't know whether someone is Town or not; all I know is how they're acting.
And this is precisely why it's useless to look for Scum motivation. Every action ever has scum motivation. If the action is one that hurts Town, then the motivation is that Scum want to hurt Town, and if the action is one that helps Town, the motivation is that Scum want to blend in. But not every action has Town motivation, since Town never wants to hurt Town. So if you see someone acting to hurt Town, they might just be screwing up, but it's a better than random bet that they're not Town.
On another note, I asked Mahaloth these questions earlier, but it occurs to me that they're both in the realm of mod questions: Can a person with only the default single soul trade it away? Does transferring of items (or souls or soapstones) require an action, or can it be done in addition to using an item in the same cycle?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Jun 30, 2014 21:49:46 GMT -5
1. Yes.
2. No. Transfers of items (or souls or soapstones) do not occupy an action and can be done at will and at any time. Just bear in mind that the actual transfer of possession occurs at Dawn or Dusk, respectively, of the Night or Day on which the transfer is ordered.
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Post by Chameleon on Jul 1, 2014 3:14:55 GMT -5
I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. and I think swammerdami should know better than to make such an argument on Day 1 of a game. vote: swammerdami You really think this is the thing you have seen so far that is most likely to indicate scum? Players have varying views on whether you should choose between lynch candidates or whether it is better to vote for someone you consider more likely to be scum even if it is a one-off. He states up front what he is planning on doing. He doesn't seem to be trying to hide his vote in among the others by not casting suspicion on others. Ok - well the quotes didn't work quite right - I wanted to include SisC's quoted quote that Suburban was wholeheartedly agreeing with, but it vanished. Abstain vs. Chronos - it's not yet clear to me that either one is Scum. I also don't think there's necessarily a Scum pileup on either one. I kind of think Scum is more likely to give a somewhat weak argument and singular vote to keep themselves out of the "focus" groups- an argument like Suburban's above. It's an argument that was already presented by someone else ( SisC - although I don't think she actually voted for Swammer) and therefore was someone else's idea. If Abstain and Chronos are both Town or non-hostile then SP won't be pinned to the voting pool on either of them and won't really have to worry until there's more suspicion on Swammer. Vote: Suburban PlanktonAnd yes, I am aware that I'm kind of doing the same thing I'm voting him for. It's just what I feel right now based on what I think Scum would most likely do, but we have a few days so I will re-evaluate before the end of day. I am also aware that it all gets a heck of a lot trickier knowing that there are several other factions, some hostile and some not, that have entirely different motivations.
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Post by Chameleon on Jul 1, 2014 3:22:32 GMT -5
As for Maha's claim. Obviously the role itself must be true because the first player who tries to trade with him would call him out if it wasn't. I am very curious as to why we haven't heard from the other merchant. If they are really only battling one another and are neutral then neither goodies nor baddies have a reason to kill them.
And as for changing covenants - perhaps this will give away the naivety of my character, but how do we know, or find out, what the other covenants are in order to know whether we'd want to join them or not? Is this something that will reveal itself as the game unfolds or am I missing something?
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