Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Feb 26, 2008 13:34:41 GMT -5
That tells us basically nothing, since none of the scum alive have teammates anymore, and there were only two of them to start with. This is just another example of you appearing to be helpful this game without actually doing anything or taking a stance on anything. So you are maintaining that there is no value in looking back at the Day 1 and 2 votes with the added knowledge that we have after three extra deaths, including, one should note, one member of the third faction? It might be useless, or it might not. It didn't cost very much effort, and it might prove useful. So I invested the time. Use it if you want, ignore it if you want, it's all the same to me.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 26, 2008 13:57:07 GMT -5
That tells us basically nothing, since none of the scum alive have teammates anymore, and there were only two of them to start with. This is just another example of you appearing to be helpful this game without actually doing anything or taking a stance on anything. So you are maintaining that there is no value in looking back at the Day 1 and 2 votes with the added knowledge that we have after three extra deaths, including, one should note, one member of the third faction? It might be useless, or it might not. It didn't cost very much effort, and it might prove useful. So I invested the time. Use it if you want, ignore it if you want, it's all the same to me. OK. You have posited that this is potentially valuable information. Take us another step - analyze it. Look over what you posted and tell us: what do you think of it? Is it suggestive of anything to you? It's not that it's not valuable; it's that it's not valuable in and of itself. What you posted is useful only if it's analyzed, and when you put information out there and then offer no comment on its possible meaning, it looks like you're trying to avoid attention.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Feb 26, 2008 14:13:47 GMT -5
That's fair enough. I did in fact decide to do that, but saw no point in posting it because if I failed to develop anything, I'd just get accused of promising and failing to deliver. Again. And there was some thinking I wanted to do before I went off down that track.
Most of the time, I simply don't get enough juice out of the thinking to post, which is why I don't seem to follow through. It's not that I don't do it, it's that I often wind up with nothing worthwhile to say. Which isn't good, I'll admit.
Back later.
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Feb 26, 2008 14:28:28 GMT -5
Top-of-the-page Votecount:
2 - Pygmyrugger (storyteller0910, Pleonast)
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 26, 2008 15:11:11 GMT -5
<snip> I often wind up with nothing worthwhile to say. Which isn't good, I'll admit. Back later. There's nothing wrong with not having anything "worthwhile" to say, heck, I do it all the time! Just let us know what you're thinking. It doesn't have to be some profound, bulletproof case, but it'd be nice to have some thoughts besides the scant few that are being presented.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Feb 26, 2008 18:43:04 GMT -5
My thoughts, such as they are. I'm going to start with a reworking of the Day 1 votes. It occurred to me that the final vote count was a touch artificial because we were all playing lynch-the-leader. So, what was the vote count at the 24 hour deadline? At 4:59am GMT on 2nd Feb 08 the last post in Day 1 was D1.368. At this time the vote count was : Koldanar : 7 ( Diomedes, Diggitcamara, Roosh, Drainbead, Atarus, Kat, Santo Rugger) Piratepete : 5 ( HockeyMonkey, Koldanar, CatinaSuit, Nesta, Storyteller0910) Peasant Smurf : 3 ( Hawkeyeop, NAF1138, Pleonast) Hal Briston : 1 (Mhaye) NAF1138 : 1 (DarkCookies) Pleonast : 1 (Peasant Smurf) Did Not Vote : Hal Briston, Piratepete. My gut feeling is that there's a very good chance that at least one goon was voting for Piratepete at this point. So that would suggest looking into Nesta and Storyteller, and I think that's where I'm going to start. I'm fairly sure that from there I will be moving into looking at Peasant Smurf's contribution, because there was a spat between PS and Story on Day 1 that is one of my particular targets. Something rubbed me wrong when I was rereading a little while back. PS is someone I'm suspicious of because of his low contributions anyway, so it's a natural continuation. I'm suspicious of everyone else, too; Hal for dropping the hammer on Kat, Santo Rugger because his playstyle reminds me of games when he was scum, Pleonast for his explanation of why he failed to realise that Hawkeyeop was scum at the start of Day 3 (DBI beat us over the head with his alignment and he didn't notice) and DarkCookies for a willingness to use deceit if Town. However, as with Hal I haven't yet caught her in an untruth so she's bottom of the suspect list for now. I'm well aware that those aren't enough grounds for a vote. That's why there's nothing in bold blue text. It's going to take longer (doesn't it always?) because the software upgrade means we can't search for posts prior to D4.09, so we'll just have to read and reread the threads. Onward!
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 26, 2008 21:58:57 GMT -5
I'm going to let a vote for Peasant Smurf hang on his neck until he puts forth some more something...anything.
I will not be surprised if that vote moves, but I'm still readin' and ruminatin'.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 27, 2008 1:20:24 GMT -5
Vote Hal Briston, for not having a vote on Day 1 and for hammering yesterday.
I'm also more than willing to vote for Pleo again today.
Look, guys, we've got 3 scum, and two people who can claim (as long as they're not hammered on before they're given the opportunity *cough*), so we've got a 60% chance of catching scum today.
A question, to the four of you who haven't voted yet, who are you planning on voting for, and why?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 27, 2008 9:24:16 GMT -5
Vote Hal Briston, for not having a vote on Day 1 and for hammering yesterday. OK, I'm behind you on the Hal Briston thing, obviously; he's been on the list for me since Day One. And the thing is, his nitpicky non-response to my case against him earlier toDay has increased my suspicion in that regard. It reads to me like Hal didn't want to completely ignore my case - because that would look suspicious - but given that my vote wasn't actually on him, he wanted to respond to it as little as possible. So he picked one line to nitpick, ignored the substance of what I was saying, and then dropped it like a hot potato. Makes sense from the standpoint of possible scum, of course: getting drawn into a protracted argument with me would only increase the amount of scrutiny he'd draw - and since my vote, and subsequently Pleonast's vote, landed elsewhere, mostly ignoring my case meant that Santo and I would start back-and-forthing. My vote is currently on Santo Rugger, but I would change it to Hal Briston in a heartbeat. They are just about exactly neck-and-neck for me. So I put it to the quieter players: mhaye, what do you think of these two players? Peasant Smurf? nesta? Of the two, do you find either one scummy? Scummier than the other? Not at all scummy? Meanwhile, Santo: I think this needs to be addressed. You haven't gotten any traction with this effort, but you keep coming back to it. Of course, this could be because you're pro-town and genuinely think Pleonast is scum. It could be that you are scum, and are genuinely convinced that he is, too (or, of course, you just don't care either way). But your persistence in mentioning him reads like you're baiting him to respond, to possibly say too much and lose his powers, and that worries me. So, since I can't lose Pleonast's putative powers no matter what I say, I'll respond in his place: You have not presented much of a case for Pleonast being scum. So far, your suspicion appears to rest entirely on the fact that Pleo appeared to not know the names of the scum against whom he would (hypothetically) be protecting, if he were a Doctor. Two points: (1) I reject this argument out of hand, because I can easily visualize a Doctor who does not memorize the in-game names of the players involved. It's not like it's private information, and it can be easily looked up if it's needed; why bother learning it? (2) But even if I accept your premise - that the non-peasants would have learned the various names more assiduously than the peasants - it still is problematic. Because if, as you propose, Pleonast is scum, then the Doctors and other scum would have been his enemies (and, in one case, his ally). Under your theory, wouldn't scum Pleonast devote the same effort to learning the names of his opponents as Doctor Pleonast would? And thus, wouldn't his initial confusion be just as inexplicable (under your theory) if he were scum as if he were a Doctor? This is a pretty significant inconsistency in your position. That, combined with the fact that you're using such tenuous logic to back your continued pursuit of Pleonast, in spite of the potential downside of that pursuit, refreshes my suspicion of you. And here's the thing. I've said nothing here about whether or not Pleonast is actually scum. But even if he is, there's no reason to pursue him right now. We're not at lynch-or-lose. If you're right about Pleo, we will know it. If two more weak Doctors die, and neither one is Pleonast, then he's almost certainly scum and should be lynched. Until then, though, if he's scum, he'll even help us, because he'll draw enemy fire away from real townies (the scum don't know he's lying if he's lying, remember). But if you're wrong about Pleo, your continued pursuit of him could eventually cause him to lose his powers.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 27, 2008 10:20:49 GMT -5
<snip>So far, your suspicion appears to rest entirely on the fact that Pleo appeared to not know the names of the scum against whom he would (hypothetically) be protecting, if he were a Doctor. <snip>Under your theory, wouldn't scum Pleonast devote the same effort to learning the names of his opponents as Doctor Pleonast would? <snip> I THINK PLEONAST IS SCUM. It doesn't rest on him not knowing the names of the scum, it rests on him not knowing HIS OWN FLIPPIN' NAME. He would have shared a name with Roosh, and he DIDN'T recognize that. The role PMs clearly show that each faction along with the minor Docs share a family name. I can't imagine this just getting glossed over, especially by one who is supposedly a Zhang. Seems that the name would ring a bell, at least. I THINK PLEONAST IS SCUM. It's obvious he's not going to defend himself against my charges, because a) if he's not, he can't, without losing his powers, and b) nobody else seems to think he is. I'm not doggedly pursuing him today, simply stating all my thoughts, like I wish other players would do a bit more often. Furthermore, your lambasting of me for mentioning that I'd vote for Pleo again, in passing, has only caused both you and I to post rehashed substantial content. I'm sure this was no mistake on your part.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 27, 2008 10:26:58 GMT -5
<snip> (2) But even if I accept your premise - that the non-peasants would have learned the various names more assiduously than the peasants - it still is problematic. Because if, as you propose, Pleonast is scum, then the Doctors and other scum would have been his enemies (and, in one case, his ally). Under your theory, wouldn't scum Pleonast devote the same effort to learning the names of his opponents as Doctor Pleonast would? <snip> Sorry for making this two posts. No, I DON'T think scum care what the name of the doctor that protects against them is*. I think a scum would internalize their role as "Hmm, I'm a Tsao", whereas a mini Doc would internalize it as, "I'm a Zhang, and I protect against the Tsaos." That's why I think the post was "faked", so to speak, and he realized his mistake two minutes later and tried to "correct" it. But I thought I already said all this Yesterday...
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 27, 2008 10:53:45 GMT -5
I THINK PLEONAST IS SCUM. It doesn't rest on him not knowing the names of the scum, it rests on him not knowing HIS OWN FLIPPIN' NAME. He would have shared a name with Roosh, and he DIDN'T recognize that. The role PMs clearly show that each faction along with the minor Docs share a family name. I can't imagine this just getting glossed over, especially by one who is supposedly a Zhang. Seems that the name would ring a bell, at least. OK, well, I reject this. Sorry. I guess that's pretty much all there is to say on the subject. By the way, your accusation that I'm posting rehashed content - "which I'm sure [is] no mistake on your part" - is comically OMGUS. I've done everything I can to keep the conversation going today, and in as many directions as I can manage. And you know it. I'm very happy with my vote.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Feb 27, 2008 11:04:00 GMT -5
Gamemode=Off Thank goodness for small mercies. I started looking at peoples posts last night, and found that neither search not people's profiles would allow me to pull up a player's posts older than about post D4.09. That's been fixed now, as I just called up Peasant Smurf's to check whether I would have to copy all the links into an open office document. Things might go a bit quicker. Don't promise anything though. Oh, and I survived the earthquake. Thanks for asking. 5.2 may not be much, but the UK hasn't had one that big for 24 years. It was a small earthquake but it was our earthquake. Gamemode=On Storyteller asks. My vote is currently on Santo Rugger, but I would change it to Hal Briston in a heartbeat. They are just about exactly neck-and-neck for me. So I put it to the quieter players: mhaye, what do you think of these two players? Peasant Smurf? nesta? Of the two, do you find either one scummy? Scummier than the other? Not at all scummy? I currently think that Hal is scummier appearing than Santo Rugger, primarily for dropping the hammer on Kat Yesterday. I keep remembering how Santo-the-Godfather kept doing that in Firefly, sometimes chopping off people who'd intimated they might have something to say. Santo's style feels like his style in his scum games, but that's a subjective assessment. If I get nothing from my review of Nesta, you and Peasant Smurf then I'll move Hal to the top of the pile and review his posts.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 27, 2008 11:12:29 GMT -5
Gamemode=Off Thank goodness for small mercies. I started looking at peoples posts last night, and found that neither search not people's profiles would allow me to pull up a player's posts older than about post D4.09. That's been fixed now, as I just called up Peasant Smurf's to check whether I would have to copy all the links into an open office document. Things might go a bit quicker. Don't promise anything though. Oh, and I survived the earthquake. Thanks for asking. 5.2 may not be much, but the UK hasn't had one that big for 24 years. It was a small earthquake but it was our earthquake. Gamemode=On Storyteller asks. My vote is currently on Santo Rugger, but I would change it to Hal Briston in a heartbeat. They are just about exactly neck-and-neck for me. So I put it to the quieter players: mhaye, what do you think of these two players? Peasant Smurf? nesta? Of the two, do you find either one scummy? Scummier than the other? Not at all scummy? I currently think that Hal is scummier appearing than Santo Rugger, primarily for dropping the hammer on Kat Yesterday. I keep remembering how Santo-the-Godfather kept doing that in Firefly, sometimes chopping off people who'd intimated they might have something to say. Santo's style feels like his style in his scum games, but that's a subjective assessment. If I get nothing from my review of Nesta, you and Peasant Smurf then I'll move Hal to the top of the pile and review his posts.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 27, 2008 11:15:14 GMT -5
<snip> I currently think that Hal is scummier appearing than Santo Rugger, primarily for dropping the hammer on Kat Yesterday. I keep remembering how Santo-the-Godfather kept doing that in Firefly, sometimes chopping off people who'd intimated they might have something to say. Santo's style feels like his style in his scum games, but that's a subjective assessment.<snip> I agree with the hammer part, and I need to address the last quoted sentence. This is the second time this game you've said that my style reminds you of when I've been scum. You or somebody else said that in the BladeRunner game, also. Just as in that game, I'm going to take it as a compliment that I do a good job of acting like a townie when I'm scum, instead of the implied statement that I act like scum when I'm a townie.
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Post by Hal Briston on Feb 27, 2008 13:13:50 GMT -5
Vote Hal Briston, for not having a vote on Day 1 and for hammering yesterday. Now now, let's be fair -- I didn't vote on Day 1 or Day 2. And then hammered the Doc on Day 3. Looks like I should've kept up with what I did the first two days. The reasoning is simple -- I hadn't been paying nearly as much attention as I should have. Unfortunately, it's been to the detriment of the town here. I simply missed the voting deadline the first two days, and didn't realize my vote would be the hammer on Day 3. Simple as that. I'm not scum, but those actions are going to attract a lot of misplaced suspicion. All I can do now is vote for who I'm most suspicious of, and hope the scum don't manage to pull off a bandwagon. Speaking of... OK, I'm behind you on the Hal Briston thing, obviously; he's been on the list for me since Day One. Huh...I have been on your list all game, haven't I? You focused in on a point of view I have (that has very little big-picture bearing), and hammered away at it. I've never made it a secret that I supported that style of play (which I only advocate as a method of tripping up scum), but now all of a sudden it was A Big Deal to you. Why would that be? Here's another thing I've never made a secret -- I think you're one of the best we have at this game. I think your posts and arguments are concise and well thought-out. So when you make a "mistake" like insinuating that Rugger and I are on the same team, when that is quite impossible -- I dunno...that's not the type of slip I'd expect from you. But we all know that games are often won or lost on town picking up on scum slips, aren't they? And the thing is, his nitpicky non-response to my case against him earlier toDay has increased my suspicion in that regard. You can try calling it nitpicky -- I think it was very telling. My default instinct is to trust you. Not smart in a game such as this, I know, but there it is. However, others have found out that's not always the best idea, haven't they? I'm thinking that this time your skills are on the wrong side. Vote storyteller
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Feb 27, 2008 13:18:14 GMT -5
<snip> I currently think that Hal is scummier appearing than Santo Rugger, primarily for dropping the hammer on Kat Yesterday. I keep remembering how Santo-the-Godfather kept doing that in Firefly, sometimes chopping off people who'd intimated they might have something to say. Santo's style feels like his style in his scum games, but that's a subjective assessment.<snip> I agree with the hammer part, and I need to address the last quoted sentence. This is the second time this game you've said that my style reminds you of when I've been scum. You or somebody else said that in the BladeRunner game, also. Just as in that game, I'm going to take it as a compliment that I do a good job of acting like a townie when I'm scum, instead of the implied statement that I act like scum when I'm a townie. Yes, i said it in D4.35, not far upthread. That's just a restatement of the same thought. My opinion is based on the fact that there's something of the same feeling about your play that there was in Firefly. The Blade Runner game I spent most of the time dead, so didn't take in any differences. I might be wrong, and I won't be voting for you just because of this. What it will do is inform the order of study.
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 27, 2008 13:39:45 GMT -5
So when you make a "mistake" like insinuating that Rugger and I are on the same team, when that is quite impossible -- I dunno...that's not the type of slip I'd expect from you. !!!!! Only a Faction would say it's impossible for another player to be on his team. A Townie will always consider the possibility that another player could also be Town. Unvote Pygmy RuggerVote Hal Briston
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 27, 2008 13:43:25 GMT -5
Well, the retaliatory voting is in full swing, now, isn't it? Huh...I have been on your list all game, haven't I? You focused in on a point of view I have (that has very little big-picture bearing), and hammered away at it. I've never made it a secret that I supported that style of play (which I only advocate as a method of tripping up scum), but now all of a sudden it was A Big Deal to you. Why would that be? Please note: my initial suspicion was not based on your suggestion that townies should lie per se, but on the fact that you characterized the game as one of deception. I believed, and continue to believe, that this mindset is more indicative of scum, whose primary mission is to deceive, than of town, whose primary mission is to elucidate. At the time of my initial vote, we had just lynched a player in the SDMB-board game based on exactly this theory, and it seemed to be a pretty good match. Sure. But you're oversimplifying. A "scum slip" is a slip that betrays something - a hidden motivation, hidden knowledge. It's not just an error of word choice. In this specific instance, if you're really going to use this as a scum tell, I think it's incumbent upon you to go a step further: why is it a scum tell? What hidden thing was I trying to accomplish, what extra knowledge was I revealing, by absent-mindedly substituting the word "conspired" for "combined?" Not every error is a slip. And if you think I'm immune to errors, as scum or town, ask mtgman about the Sekham game. Again, telling of what, exactly? What's the implication?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 27, 2008 13:44:35 GMT -5
And I note that Pleonast has aptly illustrated my point about the difference between a "slip" with no implications and a "slip" with actual implications.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 27, 2008 13:45:55 GMT -5
Umm, Hal was referring to story saying we were on the same scum team.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 27, 2008 13:48:13 GMT -5
My previous post was in response to Pleo's vote for Hal. I don't at all mind his unvote from me, though.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 27, 2008 13:56:16 GMT -5
<snip> Sure. But you're oversimplifying. A "scum slip" is a slip that betrays something - a hidden motivation<snip> I think the "hidden" motivation is the same as the open one. You wanted others to think that we alone were more responsible for lynching Kat than anybody else. Also, that we were both scum, therefore, we'd both be lynched. story knows as well, if not better, than anybody that linking players is generally a bad idea, regardless of weather you're saying they "combined" or "conspired"*. Although my first thought when Hal hammered was not a realization that the hammer had taken place**, I think who doesn't vote when they're not paying enough attention, would realize when they placed a vote that was near majority, near the end of the day. *I both denounce and reject that took place. **I'm not sure if I believe Hal didn't know he was hammering. In Firefly, I sure knew I was. (Argh, I can't get this post to make sense, tell me if you'd like me to clarify any parts of it).
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 27, 2008 14:02:57 GMT -5
I think the "hidden" motivation is the same as the open one. You wanted others to think that we alone were more responsible for lynching Kat than anybody else. Also, that we were both scum, therefore, we'd both be lynched. story knows as well, if not better, than anybody that linking players is generally a bad idea, regardless of weather you're saying they "combined" or "conspired"*. Feh. If this is actually compelling enough to warrant votes, then by all means, vote for me. The sentence was intended to imply that you acted in concert to achieve a given outcome, which is true: your vote plus Hal's vote led to a hammering. Whether or not you worked together intentionally (obviously you didn't) is beside the point; the point was that I hold you about equally responsible for the outcome.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 27, 2008 14:07:49 GMT -5
But atarus, mhaye, and Cookies share no responsibility?
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 27, 2008 14:19:49 GMT -5
So when you make a "mistake" like insinuating that Rugger and I are on the same team, when that is quite impossible -- I dunno...that's not the type of slip I'd expect from you. !!!!! Only a Faction would say it's impossible for another player to be on his team. A Townie will always consider the possibility that another player could also be Town. Unvote Pygmy RuggerVote Hal BristonThis post surprises me. I understand story's more nuanced explanation about the possibility of the remaining scum working together even though they are all on different win conditions, but Pleo's reaction and vote switch based on what I consider to be an understanding of anyone who has digested the fact that we have already experienced the deaths of one of each of the scum factions... ergo it is actually impossible for any of them to be on the same team...is just odd.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 27, 2008 14:26:36 GMT -5
As I've said previously, mhaye's pre-claim vote for Kate should certainly be held up to as much scrutiny as any of our votes.
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Post by Hal Briston on Feb 27, 2008 14:28:00 GMT -5
And I note that Pleonast has aptly illustrated my point about the difference between a "slip" with no implications and a "slip" with actual implications. And illustrated it quite well at that. As every person playing knows, I was referring to it being impossible for Rugger and I to be on the same scum team. I knew it, you knew it, Rugger knew it, and certainly Pleo knew it. His post, with its "gasp-look-at-that-obvious-scum-slip" triple-exclamation-points, positively reeks of scum opportunism. Now I just gotta figure out who I believe less...
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 27, 2008 14:34:47 GMT -5
As every person playing knows, I was referring to it being impossible for Rugger and I to be on the same scum team. I knew it, you knew it, Rugger knew it, and certainly Pleo knew it. His post, with its "gasp-look-at-that-obvious-scum-slip" triple-exclamation-points, positively reeks of scum opportunism. I see no evidence that you were referring to you and Rugger being on the same scum team. It sounds like you're back-pedaling now to cover your slip.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 27, 2008 14:44:32 GMT -5
Something is getting pretty thick in here, and it is either paranoia or bullshit. And this is exactly the type of circumstance when everyone's contribution to help try to figure out which is which would be kinda nice to have.
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