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Post by capybara on Aug 11, 2007 11:29:47 GMT -5
OH DOCTOR Hockey! I'd forgotten about that!
And good point, Mad. Of course I'm not sure why JSexton would claim that other than to sand the vaseline and make Mal sweat until Idle arrives.
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 11, 2007 11:31:05 GMT -5
OH DOCTOR Hockey! I'd forgotten about that! And good point, Mad. Of course I'm not sure why JSexton would claim that other than to sand the vaseline and make Mal sweat until Idle arrives. Mebbe to get some body to role claim?
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Post by nesta on Aug 11, 2007 11:31:58 GMT -5
Well this is interesting. Hm.
I guess this could be a clever scum move, but if so it's really strange. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.
Assuming for the moment that your role-claim is genuine, what happens if we bring Hockey Monkey back? She'll be targeted almost immediately for a night kill, so the scum and the doctor will end up in a guessing game, though I suspect since the doctor hasn't been outed (hopefully) the doctor would protect Hockey Monkey for a number of nights straight, so we would have the advantage of several nights of investigation.
The problem is that we have to sacrifice Blaster Master. He is an unknown, but he hasn't been one of the top suspected either. Although I can't be trusted since you don't know I'm town, I've had a town read on Blaster Master so far. Of course, my track record shows just how wrong I can be.
Is it worth using your one-shot ability by sacrificing someone who at least to me is probably town to bring back the detective? And at the expense of JSexton possibly killing scum? I'm not sure.
The sad fact is that if your claim is true MHaye, you're probably not long for this world with your role-claim.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 11, 2007 11:34:13 GMT -5
Does Kat come back from the dead with her? Unfortunately not. Just the one. No, they have not. I've always voted for whoever I thought was most likely to be scum.
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Post by capybara on Aug 11, 2007 11:36:04 GMT -5
Or MHaye is really cynical and he's telling the truth per his role but he'll actually make himself immune instead of bringing Hockey back-- we will want to kill him but won't because he's certified town, and the scum can't kill him, which is good, but he'll be a dick. If this were the case though he could have lied about the other possible power and I wouldn't be able to post this jaded, pessimistic hypothesis.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 11, 2007 11:45:09 GMT -5
Assuming for the moment that your role-claim is genuine, what happens if we bring Hockey Monkey back? She'll be targeted almost immediately for a night kill, so the scum and the doctor will end up in a guessing game, though I suspect since the doctor hasn't been outed (hopefully) the doctor would protect Hockey Monkey for a number of nights straight, so we would have the advantage of several nights of investigation. We may also get to learn Night 1's investigation (it depends on exactly how IT runs his night actions). Which may or may not help us. I've had nothing on BlaM either. I wish I had; that would make this easier. But swapping almost any player for the Therapist is a net gain to the town, and we lose only one player.
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 11, 2007 11:46:29 GMT -5
If both Jsex and mhaye are being truthful,then BM has to be the choice for Jsex,right? Again assuming both are true,or even if only mhaye's is, mhaye is gonna be a huge target.We gotta get the Doctor back, true?
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Post by Malacandra on Aug 11, 2007 11:48:04 GMT -5
Or MHaye is really cynical and he's telling the truth per his role but he'll actually make himself immune instead of bringing Hockey back-- we will want to kill him but won't because he's certified town, and the scum can't kill him, which is good, but he'll be a dick. If this were the case though he could have lied about the other possible power and I wouldn't be able to post this jaded, pessimistic hypothesis. To be fair though, there would be next to no point making himself immune - the scum know not to target him and so his power would never get exercised. "Next to" only, because of course it's one less person for the Doctor to have to protect.
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Post by capybara on Aug 11, 2007 11:49:28 GMT -5
And it's a certified townie that gets to be in effect immortal-- good odds for a game win? Does that break the game?
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Post by nesta on Aug 11, 2007 11:53:05 GMT -5
I have to say that if your claim is false MHaye it's brilliant. What a way to throw us all into a tizzy. If you are scum and we kill Blaster Master you can always claim that you decided on immunity to explain why you haven't been night-killed and why Hockey Monkey isn't zombiefied. If Idle Thoughts refused to acknowledge your role one way or the other it's almost certain victory for the scum since you will never be lynched either. For this reason if Blaster Master dies and you are still alive without bringing back Hockey I think we should lynch you post-haste. Just a little disincentive to keep you from going for the selfish option.
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Post by Malacandra on Aug 11, 2007 11:56:31 GMT -5
And it's a certified townie that gets to be in effect immortal-- good odds for a game win? Does that break the game? Not really. In some games the Doctor (or Angel) has the same option, although they're not as provable as the "Bingo Master". Well, this looks like saving my life after all, but it's rough on BlaM and (once again in view of the supposed deadline) hardly fair.
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Post by nesta on Aug 11, 2007 11:59:48 GMT -5
And it's a certified townie that gets to be in effect immortal-- good odds for a game win? Does that break the game? He's only certified if he chooses immunity if Idle Thoughts confirms his role. If Idle does this, though, it's only game winning if we get down to two town vs one scum. It could always end up two or more scum vs. MHaye. Of course, the chance of MHaye living that long of town is low.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 11, 2007 12:00:32 GMT -5
And it's a certified townie that gets to be in effect immortal-- good odds for a game win? Does that break the game? I'd say no; not so long as I can still be Daykilled. The Psychos can win even if I can't be killed, just by outnumbering me. I think that is still too strong though. But it's ultimately irrelevant because I won't choose that option. @ Nesta : If that happens I won't resist my lynching because I will deserve it.
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Post by capybara on Aug 11, 2007 12:01:50 GMT -5
If you are scum and we kill Blaster Master you can always claim that you decided on immunity to explain why you haven't been night-killed and why Hockey Monkey isn't zombiefied. If Idle Thoughts refused to acknowledge your role one way or the other it's almost certain victory for the scum since you will never be lynched either. Ooh, ooh, to add to this baroque, labyrinthine thesis, he's a genius that wants to secure a genius win by bluffing his way out of death! The Highlander. But really, anyone else worried about Idle Thoughts?
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Post by nesta on Aug 11, 2007 12:09:43 GMT -5
Well, this looks like saving my life after all, but it's rough on BlaM and (once again in view of the supposed deadline) hardly fair. I haven't responded to your point about the rules regarding JSexton polling for kill options due to MHaye's claim, but I'm not sure he's going against the spirit of the rules by asking. We are allowed to discuss the game at night. Is the crazy townie kill a day kill or night kill? If a day kill, on the same day as the crazy townie death, I agree it's against the rules to be asking about it. If it's a night kill, though, then I think it's fine. Either way we now have discussion and a second option for JSexton's kill. I'm not sure MHaye's claim at this time was the best thing (if true), but it's there, and we need to act on it. Let's all remember to have fun even if we think there might have been a minor rules infraction.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 11, 2007 12:10:22 GMT -5
But really, anyone else worried about Idle Thoughts? Not really. He's visiting his fiancee for a week. We're second priority. (At least!) I've been in those shoes, but had the advantage that my fiancee is a gameplayer and understood my obligations.
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Post by nesta on Aug 11, 2007 12:12:33 GMT -5
But really, anyone else worried about Idle Thoughts? Yeah. When JSexton said he'd been in the hospital it triggered the though that Idle Thoughts may have had something bad happen to him too. Idle, come back and let us know you're OK.
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Post by Malacandra on Aug 11, 2007 12:38:40 GMT -5
Well, this looks like saving my life after all, but it's rough on BlaM and (once again in view of the supposed deadline) hardly fair. I haven't responded to your point about the rules regarding JSexton polling for kill options due to MHaye's claim, but I'm not sure he's going against the spirit of the rules by asking. We are allowed to discuss the game at night. True, but JSexton wouldn't be around at Night to discuss the matter, and it would have been fairer if JS had just croaked and not got to blab about his role, since he couldn't manage to mention it sooner, and so we wouldn't now be talking about wasting BlaM just because he's part of MHaye's pet project. Of course, chances are I'd be now supping a cold one along with JSexton over in Limbo, but to quote Carrot Ironfoundersson, personal isn't the same as important.
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Post by Blaster Master on Aug 11, 2007 13:21:24 GMT -5
I couldn't believe what I saw going on in here. I had a suspicion that JSexton might be the crazy townie, which explained the unusual behavior we were seeing from him, but I certainly didn't expect what mhaye claimed at all. Of course, chances are I'd be now supping a cold one along with JSexton over in Limbo, but to quote Carrot Ironfoundersson, personal isn't the same as important. This jogged my memory of something Hal Briston said in post 3.29 , namely: Here's my thoughts, and yes this is a bit of meta-gaming, but what the hell... The purpose of password protecting the forbidden forum is so they can talk more openly about specific knowledge, particularly Idle can share his thoughts without having to be secretive and the scum can discuss their partners and such. Further, we know from the quote above that the password is PMed upon death. Hence, anyone who could be resurrected has likely already had access to the forbidden thread. Thus, any such resurrection could potentially be game breaking, and since Idle specifically password protected the forbidden forum, I'd also expect he'd be aware of this. I'm also wondering about the timing of this, as someone else mentioned up thread. If I'm on this bingo card with two other dead people (whom you interesting didn't mention, perhaps aware of how it might affect the timing), why didn't you call this out as soon as it became a possibility that you could resurrect the therapist? If the two are Hockey and Kat, you could have said this Yesterday, especially since you weren't one of the ones voting for cowgirl. If it included cowgirl or Hal, you could have said that first thing Today. Why did you wait until JSexton claimed to make this claim? Are you trying to protect Mal and then bluff your way out of a death like, as I think capybara said, by pretending you used the immortal power or some other power you failed to mention. IOW, if you had said this at the beginning of the Day, without some obvious motivation to be possibly protecting Malacandra, this story might be believable... but for now, I'm going to go reference "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". And I, for one, would like to see from you a damn good explanation for your timing, otherwise you're at the top of my list to get a vote from me Tomorrow, assuming I survive this ordeal and the forthcoming Night.
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Post by capybara on Aug 11, 2007 13:34:59 GMT -5
That is a good question. It might be merely that it's simpler in this circumstance-- the first time an individual has openly been able to choose a death-- rather than having to convince the whole town. But Mhaye, you did have all day to do this-- why now?
And, forgive me for asking but you never explained this, I don't think, but MHaye, what is your win condition? Do you win with town,or?
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 11, 2007 13:54:00 GMT -5
I'm going to answer this in two parts, because I need to get some tea right now. I couldn't believe what I saw going on in here. I had a suspicion that JSexton might be the crazy townie, which explained the unusual behavior we were seeing from him, but I certainly didn't expect what mhaye claimed at all. Of course, chances are I'd be now supping a cold one along with JSexton over in Limbo, but to quote Carrot Ironfoundersson, personal isn't the same as important. This jogged my memory of something Hal Briston said in post 3.29 , namely: Here's my thoughts, and yes this is a bit of meta-gaming, but what the hell... The purpose of password protecting the forbidden forum is so they can talk more openly about specific knowledge, particularly Idle can share his thoughts without having to be secretive and the scum can discuss their partners and such. Further, we know from the quote above that the password is PMed upon death. Hence, anyone who could be resurrected has likely already had access to the forbidden thread. Thus, any such resurrection could potentially be game breaking, and since Idle specifically password protected the forbidden forum, I'd also expect he'd be aware of this. My role was set (and I was told the powers) before I opened the game. Therefore Idle should have been aware of the potential for a player to return to life with knowledge gained from the Forbidden Thread. I mentioned in a PM to IT that I would seriously consider resurrecting Hockeymonkey if I had the chance within half an hour of the Day Two opening post going up. A PM to which he replied within an hour. I would therefore hope that he has restrained himself from giving gamebreaking information out in the afterlife. The only proof I have of this assertion is my PM record. However there's usually a ban on quoting PMs from the GO, otherwise the game gets broken quite quickly. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to get some food and then deal with your other question.
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Post by Blaster Master on Aug 11, 2007 13:58:19 GMT -5
That is a good question. It might be merely that it's simpler in this circumstance-- the first time an individual has openly been able to choose a death-- rather than having to convince the whole town. But Mhaye, you did have all day to do this-- why now? Possibly, but see this is why the whole thing reeks to me. If he had come out first thing this morning, we could have had plenty of time to test the veracity of his claim. Instead, we're forced to depend on whether one person, whose role we can't even confirm (though I see no reason to doubt it), believes it without any discussion. In fact, as JSexton said himself in M2, with a little paraphrasing, with regard to the Vigilante (coincidentally enough, me), it's still no where near as good as a lynch because it didn't involve the collective decision of the town, but relied only on the whims of the person with that role. Thus, mhaye specifically chose a time when the decision lies on one person, rather than trusting the collective decision-making and discussion of the town. This sort of action, IMO, is decidedly anti-town.
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Post by Blaster Master on Aug 11, 2007 14:08:21 GMT -5
I mentioned in a PM to IT that I would seriously consider resurrecting Hockeymonkey if I had the chance within half an hour of the Day Two opening post going up. A PM to which he replied within an hour. I would therefore hope that he has restrained himself from giving gamebreaking information out in the afterlife. But even if Idle Thoughts wasn't going to share any more game-breaking information, there's nothing to say that he hadn't already or that drainbead hadn't or wouldn't divulge her information about the identity of some or all of the scum. After the whole M3 forbidden thread fiasco, the two ways to keep from tainting the game is to either be secretive or password protect. I just can't imagine he'd deliberately subject this game to the same kind of contamination. Of course, this is the reason I hate the whole meta-gaming aspect. Because it depends entirely on PMs you can't (or at least shouldn't) show, and the motivations of our GM who isn't even playing. Agh...
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Post by capybara on Aug 11, 2007 14:10:23 GMT -5
Thus, mhaye specifically chose a time when the decision lies on one person, rather than trusting the collective decision-making and discussion of the town. This sort of action, IMO, is decidedly anti-town. [Homer Simpson] "When will people learn? Democracy doesn't work!"[/HS] This will turn into a political science debate any minute. I should log out, turn on leechblock, and get some work done. . .
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Post by JSexton on Aug 11, 2007 14:42:52 GMT -5
I'm disinclined to believe mhaye. I don't think the town would be given a role not listed in the rules.
The scum might, though. I think it's more likely that mhaye has the ability to resurrect a dead player, possibly converting them to the psychos at the same time. This would avoid a great deal of the problem with having access to the spectator forum. You may want to consider lynching mhaye.
So no, I'm not going to be firing at Blaster, who I think is more likely town. It's probably still malacandra, or I may just save time and kill mhaye instead. Convince me.
As for playing within the rules, I see nothing that tells me to stop talking until the mod says so. Trying to shut me up is anti-town, Mal.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 11, 2007 14:48:16 GMT -5
I'm also wondering about the timing of this, as someone else mentioned up thread. If I'm on this bingo card with two other dead people (whom you interesting didn't mention, perhaps aware of how it might affect the timing), why didn't you call this out as soon as it became a possibility that you could resurrect the therapist? If the two are Hockey and Kat, you could have said this Yesterday, especially since you weren't one of the ones voting for cowgirl. If it included cowgirl or Hal, you could have said that first thing Today. Why did you wait until JSexton claimed to make this claim? Are you trying to protect Mal and then bluff your way out of a death like, as I think capybara said, by pretending you used the immortal power or some other power you failed to mention. IOW, if you had said this at the beginning of the Day, without some obvious motivation to be possibly protecting Malacandra, this story might be believable... but for now, I'm going to go reference "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". And I, for one, would like to see from you a damn good explanation for your timing, otherwise you're at the top of my list to get a vote from me Tomorrow, assuming I survive this ordeal and the forthcoming Night. This is a difficult one to answer, primarily because I'm sitting here thinking "damn, I wish I'd thought of that." Your argument was not one that I'd thought of, and illustrates (in part) why I hesitated over coming forward earlier. The main reason I did not come forward straight away was that losing you would be a bitter pill for the Town (if you were in fact Town-aligned, which I thought likely, and still think so. I've been on that part line since Day 2 opened. I decided then that it would be better if I gave the Psychos a chance to complete the line for me, and did not revisit that decision when Day 3 opened. If I had though, I would probably have made the same choice. I wanted options - more lines getting close to being filled out, other people as possible choices for the sacrifice so I could argue for the one most likely Psycho (imo). What pushed me into claiming at this point was that we are faced with the prospect of losing two players again - and in the last couple of Days I've come to believe that Malacandra is not Psycho. Thus I really believe that we are facing a double loss - which effectively cuts one whole Day off the time the town has to find and eliminate Psychos (counting the twofer on Night 1). That is the straw that broke the camel's back (as it were). If we both survive the Night, I won't resist if the town want to lynch me. It won't help the Townies win though. @ Capybara : I win or lose with the Town. @ JSexton : If you really think that, be my guest. Better than wasting a lynch on me Tomorrow.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 11, 2007 14:50:49 GMT -5
Oh, JSexton : Before deciding, remember that (as far as I know) the roles had already been issued by the time I was offered the choice to join at the start. There's an exchange of posts somewhere between IT and myself to show that.
Would you really want to add a role that powerful to scumside at the last minute?
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Post by JSexton on Aug 11, 2007 14:52:35 GMT -5
@ JSexton : If you really think that, be my guest. Better than wasting a lynch on me Tomorrow. I wold like a full role claim from you. Please list every player on your bingo board, and their relation to each other.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 11, 2007 14:57:48 GMT -5
Ok. Shouldn't take too long.
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Post by Malacandra on Aug 11, 2007 14:59:32 GMT -5
As for playing within the rules, I see nothing that tells me to stop talking until the mod says so. Trying to shut me up is anti-town, Mal. Dude, you should have died before MHaye had the chance to open his mouth. It's not my fault if I'm principled. The best outcome for the town now is if BlaM is scum, MHaye is telling the truth, and we get the Therapist back - but I want to see a show of hands from those who wouldn't call it a tainted win. I like to win fairly. YMMV.
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