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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 11:15:31 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Jul 15, 2009 11:15:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the sympathy on the bike, guys. I can't think of an inanimate object I ever liked more. I'm just going to assume the thief in this game is the responsible party and take revenge accordingly! I'm really curious about this Gold business, as is everyone else I suppose. I have a feeling that it might be one of those things that explains itself a bit more with Day Two.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 11:22:14 GMT -5
Post by julie on Jul 15, 2009 11:22:14 GMT -5
OFH: Out For Him/herself?
LW: Lone Wolf?
I agree that it's good to consider whether these 3rd party roles have exclusive win conditions. Personally, I think the merc might be really handy for the Town to use if the merc's wincon isn't to our detriment. I don't see a way to make use of the Thief the same way.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 12:50:26 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Jul 15, 2009 12:50:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the sympathy on the bike, guys. I can't think of an inanimate object I ever liked more. I'm just going to assume the thief in this game is the responsible party and take revenge accordingly! [oog] This is you, isn't it ;D[/oog] And sorry about your bike. Getting robbed sucks, I had my car stereo robbed several years ago. --FCOD
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 12:54:33 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Jul 15, 2009 12:54:33 GMT -5
I think that despite the objection, PFK has become too rooted in our lexicon to try and switch it out. It would just lead to more confusion.
Regarding gold pooling, I don't think any final decisions on that should be made until tomorrow, where we'd at least have individually more information on the subject.
Regarding the merc him/herself. I recall the role of War that I held in my first game on this board, who's win condition was to end the game with himself, one scum, and one town. Clearly that exact win condition is unlikely, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were something along that vein to keep the merc from giving too much help to town or scum. I wouldn't give a yes or no on it, but the longer I think on it, the more I feel he/she is not a immediate threat.
also simple solution to an earlier question
Can you hire the merc to monologue and/or sit on his/her hands?
I'm glad for something interesting to look at on day one, huzzah!
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 13:01:06 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Jul 15, 2009 13:01:06 GMT -5
Hi, everyone! I'm still digesting the information available. I find it pointless to quibble over whether a role is "PFK"* or third party**. Anyone who doesn't have the Town's win condition*** needs to give us a very good reason for us not to lynch them. * A term I dislike since we should all be playing for keeps. ** I use "third party" to mean any player who is neither Town nor Rebel, regardless of exclusivity of win conditions. *** Which better be publicly revealed soon, or we will be able to put non-Townies at a disadvantage.Clipped and bolded for clarity and emphasis. You seem to be encouraging a reveal of the town win condition without, in fact doing it yourself. I think that: A: that's a bad idea B: it's suspicious that you are encouraging it rather than just doing it considering your wording C: on the other hand not having a standard town win condition does not necessarily = not being town D: I could easily be reading too much into this. I would love if you could help establish what you meant there and remove some of my confusion and/or damn yourself to the noose.
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Natlaw
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 13:24:39 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Jul 15, 2009 13:24:39 GMT -5
Hi all, I guess that thousand posts on the first Day is goal still on target? It's page three before I get the time to make my first post! I agree with the mercenary/thief sounding like TP/PFK, though they (or one) could go both ways of the steal wins / survivor role. If they are just hoarding gold, that doesn't seem to interfere directly with the rebel situation. But perhaps they also have another use for gold, for example someone mention a politician who might be able to literally buy votes. On the first day topics: -Hi, I'm Natlaw and I'm addicted to mafia. Well, not really, I just play one game at a time, unlike the real addicts ;D. This is my fifth game (one town win, one town loss and two loses as scum. -I don't particular hate Day One, as scum it was even pretty dramatic in Dr. Horrible where we got two (semi-)masons and two investigators to claim, but ended up losing our hit woman. -Don't random vote, vote for a reason, even if it's a flimsy Day One. A random roll isn't flimsy, it's for no reason. -Lynch the lurker: the first gives us little information, but the moderator has said they are our problem and that a mod kill 'will never reward the side who's player was modkilled'. Not sure what that entails, but something to keep in mind. -For the newer players some links: Wiki, especially for the glossary. Mafia Scum wikiFlash tutorial (from mafia scum.net) Of course, trust no-one unless the moderator told you could. Except if you (think you might be) a paranoid cop, than don't trust even yourself .
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 13:28:30 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Jul 15, 2009 13:28:30 GMT -5
I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the rules thread. There's a lot of potential for shenanigans in the way ties will be resolved.
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Natlaw
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 13:30:00 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Jul 15, 2009 13:30:00 GMT -5
The link inside the flash file for the one with a lot of roles still points to the old location, the new one is here.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 13:39:26 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Jul 15, 2009 13:39:26 GMT -5
Hi, everyone! I'm still digesting the information available. I find it pointless to quibble over whether a role is "PFK"* or third party**. Anyone who doesn't have the Town's win condition*** needs to give us a very good reason for us not to lynch them. * A term I dislike since we should all be playing for keeps. ** I use "third party" to mean any player who is neither Town nor Rebel, regardless of exclusivity of win conditions. *** Which better be publicly revealed soon, or we will be able to put non-Townies at a disadvantage.Clipped and bolded for clarity and emphasis. You seem to be encouraging a reveal of the town win condition without, in fact doing it yourself. I think that: A: that's a bad idea B: it's suspicious that you are encouraging it rather than just doing it considering your wording C: on the other hand not having a standard town win condition does not necessarily = not being town D: I could easily be reading too much into this. I would love if you could help establish what you meant there and remove some of my confusion and/or damn yourself to the noose. Sorry for the confusion. I'm expecting the moderator to reveal the Town win condition. I absolutely do not want any Townie to reveal it. In fact revealing your win condition violates Rule #1 ("forbidden from posting role pms"). So don't do it (unless you're a Rebel ). The reason is this: right now, all Townies share information that the Rebels do not. We can use this to our advantage to separate those who know the win condition from those who don't. Without revealing the win condition, which is against the rules anyway. For example, let's say the Town win condition is: You win when Pleonast dies. Each player appends their player number to the end of their condition. Since I'm third on the player list, my modified condition is: You win when Pleonast dies.3 I then input this line into a hash function, for example, one like this. Let's say we agree to use the CRC32 hash, I'd then tell everyone: "My hash is 8c847e65". Anyone else with the same win condition will be able to compute that same number, because they will know exactly what I input. Others will not. That approach is the most foolproof, but it doesn't have to be complicated. A player can easily hand shake with another by asking each other what the 18th letter of their pm is. This is why moderators really need to publicly reveal Town win conditions and vanilla role PMs.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 13:49:25 GMT -5
Post by hockeyguy8435 on Jul 15, 2009 13:49:25 GMT -5
Ok, I'm checking in. I got a chance to read some late last night, but I'm just now diving into the majority of the posts. I'll chime in with some thoughts once I finish up my read.
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Natlaw
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 13:57:42 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Jul 15, 2009 13:57:42 GMT -5
That does seem to imply a six day Day and a one day Night for a week per cycle? So what is the planned Day/Night schedule?.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 14:06:33 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on Jul 15, 2009 14:06:33 GMT -5
That does seem to imply a six day Day and a one day Night for a week per cycle? So what is the planned Day/Night schedule?. The initial 6 day cycle was mainly to avoid Day 1 ending on a weekend. I'll probably go to 2 day Nights and 5 day Days after, but I'm open to suggestions.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 14:09:55 GMT -5
Post by hockeyguy8435 on Jul 15, 2009 14:09:55 GMT -5
It is this statement that seems to rule out the possibility of the Merc being merely a game mechanic. Yes, I absolutely share the idea that the Merc is a player, maybe a PFK. My take on how the role works is that s/he gets to choose from the list of propositions and targets for any given Day (or Night?) and gets to choose who, and if, s/he decides to take action. I'd wager they probably have a limited amount of times they're allowed to act, in order to keep them from offing someone every night. Also to keep them hesitant at times, in order to wait until a certain name is said to them.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 14:14:03 GMT -5
Post by hockeyguy8435 on Jul 15, 2009 14:14:03 GMT -5
I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the rules thread. There's a lot of potential for shenanigans in the way ties will be resolved. Nice catch there. I say you asked that earlier when I was able to read a couple posts before work this morning, and I was positive it would go the opposite way then it does. We'll need to be careful of the can of worms this has the potential of opening.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 14:20:03 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 15, 2009 14:20:03 GMT -5
I am going to take a close look at color again to see if I can figure out if any of the third party are PFK (sorry Pleo but the term is useful) of if the win with town after the rebles are no longer a threat. Oh, I agree we need a term that means "a role that can win alone and thus prevent all others from winning". I dislike the usage of "PFK" as that term. Everyone should be playing for keeps, not just players with roles who can win alone. If you're not, you're being unfair to your teammates. I like PFK. They are playing for Keeps in a sense that Scum/Town don't have to. They usually have to be alive at the end. A Town or Scum player can still win, even if they don't stay alive. They can play to Die and still win. I suppose it all boils down to semantics though. Maybe a better term is Solo winner. or maybe we could use "3rd party exclusive" and "3rd party inclusive"
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 14:20:21 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 15, 2009 14:20:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the sympathy on the bike, guys. I can't think of an inanimate object I ever liked more. I'm just going to assume the thief in this game is the responsible party and take revenge accordingly! At least it wasn't your umbrella ;D
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 14:48:34 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on Jul 15, 2009 14:48:34 GMT -5
That's pretty metagamey Pleo. I have to admit I had a similar thought though. I have certainly raised my suspicion of certain people based on their reactions and comments on certain discussion threads so far, and lowered my suspicion of others. I'm quite sure that you understand where I'm going with this. It's not enough in and of itself for me to be willing to lynch someone, but it's certainly a strong data point.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 15:07:01 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Jul 15, 2009 15:07:01 GMT -5
Oh, I agree we need a term that means "a role that can win alone and thus prevent all others from winning". I dislike the usage of "PFK" as that term. Everyone should be playing for keeps, not just players with roles who can win alone. If you're not, you're being unfair to your teammates. I like PFK. They are playing for Keeps in a sense that Scum/Town don't have to. They usually have to be alive at the end. A Town or Scum player can still win, even if they don't stay alive. They can play to Die and still win. I suppose it all boils down to semantics though. Maybe a better term is Solo winner. or maybe we could use "3rd party exclusive" and "3rd party inclusive" To me "playing for keeps" means no holding back. I'm not sure how the connotation of an exclusive win got connected with it (yes, I'm know people started using it in the Batman game, but that doesn't answer why that terms was used). I was thinking of something like 3PEW (third party exclusive winner) would work better, which is close to what you suggest. That's pretty metagamey Pleo. I have to admit I had a similar thought though. I have certainly raised my suspicion of certain people based on their reactions and comments on certain discussion threads so far, and lowered my suspicion of others. I'm quite sure that you understand where I'm going with this. It's not enough in and of itself for me to be willing to lynch someone, but it's certainly a strong data point. I wouldn't call it metagamey, since it doesn't make use of any information from outside the game. I think I know the gist of what you're referring to, but I don't know the specifics. Please share when you have more.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 15:11:18 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 15, 2009 15:11:18 GMT -5
That's pretty metagamey Pleo. I have to admit I had a similar thought though. I have certainly raised my suspicion of certain people based on their reactions and comments on certain discussion threads so far, and lowered my suspicion of others. I'm quite sure that you understand where I'm going with this. It's not enough in and of itself for me to be willing to lynch someone, but it's certainly a strong data point. I don't know if Pleo understand, but I think I do. And I feel the same way. But why shouldn't we use what we have available to us? Hawk isn't a newb, if he left the information out he did it intentionally.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 15:18:55 GMT -5
Post by julie on Jul 15, 2009 15:18:55 GMT -5
Well, I don't understand what you are all driving at, that's for certain.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 15:24:23 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 15, 2009 15:24:23 GMT -5
Do we have Hawk on record as to any potential gastardliness being involved in this game?
(For the newbies: Gastard is a...bastardization of "Bastard", indicating that the Mod has built mechanics into the game that will fuck with you, and/or that they will deliberately fuck with you via PM.)
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 15:27:35 GMT -5
Post by Dfrnt Breign on Jul 15, 2009 15:27:35 GMT -5
That does seem to imply a six day Day and a one day Night for a week per cycle? So what is the planned Day/Night schedule?. The initial 6 day cycle was mainly to avoid Day 1 ending on a weekend. I'll probably go to 2 day Nights and 5 day Days after, but I'm open to suggestions. I like the idea of 1 week = 1 Day/Night, but ending on Mondays, even in the afternoon (US) does kinda end on the weekend. Or at least, gives scum a built-in excuse to "last minute scramble" their way into a mis-lynch. "You're right. I changed my vote at the last minute because I hadn't had time to catch up from the weekend and the clock was ticking. I didn't see clyde*'s mason claim. Sorry." The way ties are handled may mitigate that, though, so do whatever you think is best. I keep such weird hours (and work doesn't enter into it, being retired and all) it shouldn't affect me, anyway. I'm just sayin'. *I still don't know who clyde is. About the tie-break mechanism: Am I wrong to think this will force power roles to claim earlier than in a typical game? And if so, is that good for town in some way I'm not getting? I don't know how to do quotes here, yet. I'll (try to) figure it out, but I want to get this in while I'm thinking of it. Pleonast, you said "I then input this line into a hash function, for example, one like this. Let's say we agree to use the CRC32 hash, I'd then tell everyone: "My hash is 8c847e65". Anyone else with the same win condition will be able to compute that same number, because they will know exactly what I input. Others will not." I'm one of the others who will not because I don't know what you're talking about. It looks like English, my native language, but I don't understand it.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 15:33:19 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on Jul 15, 2009 15:33:19 GMT -5
Hawk isn't a newb, if he left the information out he did it intentionally. Or sometimes Hawk hasn't gotten around to posting everything yet. A vanilla pm is now available for viewing. Remember no quoting PMs.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 15:51:58 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on Jul 15, 2009 15:51:58 GMT -5
Well with that posted there's no point in dancing around anymore.
You'll note the Town win condition makes no mention of Third Parties or PFKs. Only Rebels. This makes people who went on and on about the PFK Thief slightly more suspicious to me. I say only slightly because it's entirely possible to have missed it the first time through(since I did it myself.) On the other hand, I am 99% sure that Pleo and NAF are Town. Pleo because his poking the Mod indicated to me that he knew perfectly well that the Town win con didn't mention anything other than Rebels and people were leaving themselves open to being caught by that.
NAF because of what struck me as one of the all time great breadcrumbs.
Which is of course almost word for word the actual Town con. I assume from his comment earlier today that he got that I caught his comment.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 15:53:57 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 15, 2009 15:53:57 GMT -5
Well with that posted there's no point in dancing around anymore. You'll note the Town win condition makes no mention of Third Parties or PFKs. Only Rebels. This makes people who went on and on about the PFK Thief slightly more suspicious to me. I say only slightly because it's entirely possible to have missed it the first time through(since I did it myself.) On the other hand, I am 99% sure that Pleo and NAF are Town. Pleo because his poking the Mod indicated to me that he knew perfectly well that the Town win con didn't mention anything other than Rebels and people were leaving themselves open to being caught by that. NAF because of what struck me as one of the all time great breadcrumbs. Which is of course almost word for word the actual Town con. I assume from his comment earlier today that he got that I caught his comment. Yeah, I was happy when you replied almost word perfect back to me. I was a little sad that no one else seemed to have seen it.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 15:55:34 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jul 15, 2009 15:55:34 GMT -5
NETA: The win condition was unique enough in tone that I thought it would be easy for other townies to pick up on. Ususally the win condition doesn't use words like "threat" but rather will say something like:
You win when all rebles are dead etc.
It is interesting that death has little to do with the win condition for town.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 16:06:04 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Jul 15, 2009 16:06:04 GMT -5
Ah, I was hoping you caught something like that. I was waiting for the situation to play out before going back to look for information slips. Which I will do soon.
dfrntbreign, don't worry about it. If it became important I would have explained in enough detail that everyone would have been able to do the needed computations. Since the moderator closed that loophole, it's a non-issue now.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 16:19:54 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 15, 2009 16:19:54 GMT -5
That kinda sucks that the game was started without the Mod having posted all of the information that he intended to post before the game was intended to start. To all future Mods: Please be very careful about such things in the future. Lack of attention to detail can send your players into the fray with the handicap of misinformation.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 17:16:12 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Jul 15, 2009 17:16:12 GMT -5
yaknow, clyde.
as in barrow.
not alaska or wheel, fcs.
and certainly not that ishtar abomination.
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Day 1
Jul 15, 2009 17:36:50 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Jul 15, 2009 17:36:50 GMT -5
yaknow, clyde. as in barrow. not alaska or wheel, fcs. and certainly not that ishtar abomination. Welcome back, peeker! vote peekercpa
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