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Post by Pleonast on Aug 31, 2009 13:30:07 GMT -5
If you are or were a player in the game, please stay out of this thread. Even if you're dead--dead players may come back to life.
Anyone who'd like to discuss the game with spoilers, please PM me.
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Post by Hawkmod on Sept 2, 2009 16:55:55 GMT -5
I think players have gotten too used to closed set-ups. All the talk thus far has been about hypotheticals, but 98% of this game is open. The players aren't talking about whether a mass claim, town lying, lynching lurkers etc. is good in this set-up, rather they are talking in general which is just silly. Especially things like mass claim which are entirely related to set-up.
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 2, 2009 17:15:51 GMT -5
Well, I think too many moderators have gotten too used to closed setups. Night Zero was wasteful in terms of the Town figuring out what to do. Part of it is all the Town has power roles of some variety or another. Too many players slip into a "lay low" mode when they have a valuable role. But in this game, that means giving scum the initiative. I was hoping that there would be some discussion of how the different factions interact. Are the Cabal going to be blocking Town or othe scum? Who will the Night-killers target first? Should the Town concentrate on the Wolves or Undead or Cabal first? Or does it not matter? (I think it does.) It's questionable for the Town to discuss it's own power roles, but in a complex and open setup like this it may be worth the risk, especially with newish players.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Sept 2, 2009 18:36:20 GMT -5
There are general strategies and specific strategies in mafia. General strategies provide a good reference point to begin from, but sometimes you need to chuck them right out and go against convention, depending on the situation. Town had a golden opportunity to hash out some strategy and let it pass by them.
At least we don't seem to vote people based merely on their ideas as much as we used to.
(Oh, and my game on the Dope that NAF will comod with me is semi-open. But it is gastard, so naturally, some things will be weird. Now if only the mods over there would confirm that it's okay for me to start it....)
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 2, 2009 22:27:22 GMT -5
As far as I know, you don't need permission to start a game on the SDMB. The main limiting factor is collecting enough players and not stepping on another game mod's toes.
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Post by Hawkmod on Sept 2, 2009 23:46:05 GMT -5
You restricted communication at Night? That is surprising. You usually complain about such restrictions.
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 2, 2009 23:54:08 GMT -5
You restricted communication at Night? That is surprising. You usually complain about such restrictions. Oh, I still do. I disallowed it here for two reasons: 1) because the Cabal is more powerful when only they have unrestricted communications. 2) Some players have complained that allowing Night strategy gives them no "off" time from the game.
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 3, 2009 13:13:10 GMT -5
I think my stance has evolved, but ultimately I am still with Paul: lynch all liars. If you lie, and unless you have a fully confirmable role, you should be lynched, or killed by alternative means if such are available. No exceptions (again, other than a fully confirmable role), no hedges, no nuances. I have come to accept the idea that there are times that it is beneficial to the Town for a Town player to lie. They are few and far between, but they exist. But: if you are Town and decide to lie, you must take into account as part of your calculus in making that decision the likelihood that you will be lynched if your lie is discovered. If your lie isn't valuable enough to be worth your eventual death if it's revealed, then your lie isn't valuable enough. Because from a Town perspective, we have no choice: all liars must die. This is not to penalize the player who lies, nor to punish bad play (as I have already conceded that lying may not be bad play for a Town player). The reason for my rigid kill all liars stance is simple: if you lie, as Town, the rest of us have no way of knowing that you are Town. We must distinguish the Scum from the Town; the former will generally have to lie at some point. Thus we draw a bright line in the sand: if you lie, and you are caught doing so, you die without fail. Will this approach result in mislynches from time to time? Yes. But if we lynch, on principle, four revealed liars in the course of a game, I will personally bet that three of the four - at minimum - will be Scum. And will I trade one mislynch for three sucessful lynches? Absolutely.Lynch all liars. Give no hiding place to the Scum who need to lie, no way to finesse the game. If you are Town - even if you are an investigator - and you decide to lie, be aware that you might die if you're caught. And if Town - even investigator Town - dies as a result of this policy, tough crap. An approach to the game that creates an inhospitable environment for Scum liars is worth much more than any investigator. This is exactly my working philosophy towards liars right now too. Do what you think best for the Town, including the cost of your own mislynch for doing it.
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Post by Renata on Sept 3, 2009 15:24:28 GMT -5
The dynamics are so different in a all-public game than in one where everyone can talk privately. (What I'm much more used to.) Lying is rather common there among the better players, Town or not. But there's still definitely a sense that not all lies are created equal, and people do get lynched or vigged for lying ... it's an interesting question.
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 3, 2009 15:46:09 GMT -5
I have trouble imagining how a Mafia game with private communication would work. I'd probably end up refusing all non-public talk, at least with anyone not confirmed Town.
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Post by Renata on Sept 3, 2009 16:36:05 GMT -5
Heh. It's a very different game. Some concepts translate well; others don't.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Sept 3, 2009 20:28:11 GMT -5
I have trouble imagining how a Mafia game with private communication would work. I'd probably end up refusing all non-public talk, at least with anyone not confirmed Town. Well, Malazan will be interesting, because we don't restrict private communication between any players. All we request is that the mods get cc'ed on any private communication that's game relevant, so the mods and the spoiled can know what's going on behind the scenes. (We're largely trusting the players on this one, we can't monitor everything. However, if we find out that a player is abusing this, we reserve the right to modkill them. And modkills really won't hurt anyone else, since the factions/clans are player-formed and mutable.) But then again, Malazan has no Town or Scum, so it's not really Mafia in the traditional sense.
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Post by texcat on Sept 3, 2009 23:32:51 GMT -5
Aaahh...the Ed and Meeko show? Wasn't that dropped because the ratings were so bad? And Ed hasn't posted a single boring WiKi entry in this game -- fear of calling the distracting kettle black? I'm not sure of the difference between posting a boring WiKi entry and an explanation of your avatar differ too much in night 0 or day 1. Both seem to stimulate some conversation which I think is a good thing. But the repeated conversation over and over and over has got to be a bad thing. Vote: Ed for not letting it drop quietly, or even thump like an earthquake, to the ground.
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 15, 2009 15:12:53 GMT -5
Unless either Ed or Meeko was the Coroner, which would sort of suck. A minor indicator, but precambrian's lack of mentioning storyteller as a possible coroner is a minor indicator that precambrian knows that storyteller is NOT the coroner. It is also possible that precambrian simply forgot storyteller existed, but I take the statement as a minor indicator that precambrian is the same alignment as storyteller. Other than that, this game is proceeding in a weird way. Two lynches and two mostly admitted lynches. This bodes well for the town since as long as they don't get crazy unlucky with the nightkills, they are in good shape night power-wise. I think there is a strong case for pedescribe being a witch. It's almost blatantly obvious since as a Witch he could reveal the Blocky find, and assure his own protection the next night... which also seems to preclude Ed, Meeko and storyteller from the Witch set. Which makes precambrian look more like scum.
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Post by stanislaus on Sept 16, 2009 5:19:26 GMT -5
Slightly oog rant*:
If I were storyteller, I'd be getting increasingly pissed off at the default "Story must die" strategy. Kind of amusing briefly, but if we're getting to the stage where he basically doesn't get to play as town, then he's just being shafted. It flies in the face of the idea that we're all playing to have fun, because where's the fun in being killed Night One. Or revealed as probably scum just because you survived Night One?
On top of that, it really smacks of cowardice. Story's a good player, and you should want to play against good players. That's the challenge and the fun. If you want to play with bad players, Mafiascum.net will welcome you with open arms.
*If story's death was for other reasons, obviously this doesn't apply.
Back to the game:
It is good that town are getting clear lynches but as pointed out, it does have the demerit of removing info from vote counts. For this reason, I tend agree with bufftabby that multiple votes add information, and provide a way to keep the game moving when there'd otherwise be no discussion.
I can see pede as a witch. I'm a little curious about Parzifal - Magician seems to be the obvious answer, but it might be a really ballsy fake soft claim.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Sept 16, 2009 6:42:47 GMT -5
Story actually tends to survive longer in these things as non-scum than sachertorte does.
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Post by stanislaus on Sept 16, 2009 8:31:26 GMT -5
Okay, same point, different player.
Speaking of sach, I remember that in C1 he played a blinder as Coroner by coming out (partly forced) and revealing just enough info to help town without helping scum. That doesn't seem to be happening this time - has something changed to make this a less effective strategy?
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 16, 2009 9:10:40 GMT -5
I often get killed during Night One. I've gotten over it. It's kind of a compliment really. If I recall, you played quite strongly in a recent game (storyteller's I think), and made a target of yourself for future Night Ones. Essentially, we need more players like you to play, so I can live longer . The only main downer of getting killed early is if I should hold a power role. The last several games I've played, I've been Vanilla, so I was happy to die. As vanilla I consider it a success to get nightkilled. I fear getting an important role like Detective. Doc I could handle since I might be able to protect myself, but Detective would suck since a quick nightkill of the Detective is bad for the Town. As for the Coroner, in our C1 game, I was forced to claim, shortly after you did. While I was planning to claim early, claiming on Day One was under pressure for some silliness I had. In my case, I revealed alignment information and suppressed role information. My fear was telling Scum that they found a witch and who it was. I didn't want them to be able to figure out who the other witches were. It was much more powerful for Town for the scum to not know what Town roles were dead. That forced them to make their night choices with less information. Even though no witches died on the first night, I knew eventually one would, and I didn't want to set the precedence. Also the early claim allowed me to warn the town about recruitment which was "secret" during C1. More importantly, the current Coroner (if still alive) doesn't need to claim. The important aspect is that a Town Player has the information, so any "slips" or "tips" can plausibly be caught by a vigilant Coroner. That is the Coroner's true power. They are the holder of more information, some of which are known by scum. Any scum speaking in a way that shows knowledge of the dead reveals their non-Townness. All of Town knowing ID's of the dead is only marginally helpful. The Coroner is there to stop the Town if the death information warrants, but can happily keep silent when death information isn't strongly relevant to the lynch. Town has the information, that is what matters most, even if all of them don't have it.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Sept 16, 2009 12:33:07 GMT -5
Interesting thing--in my 7 games I've never been a vanilla.
Batman I was town roleblocker. Doperville I was scum goon. Gastard Arena I was 3rd Party scum w/Censoring ability (All scums were scum traitors with a shared night kill.) Marvel I was Mason. SMB I was Detective. SSB I was Scotsman/Double Voter (who became Vanilla after first death, but became confirmed). Mister E's Mansion I was Detective.
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 18, 2009 14:24:33 GMT -5
Heh. Undead are kind of screwed aren't they? The evidence suggests that storyteller was the Necromancer; for him to be a Vampire is highly unlikely since the only way a Vampire can be nightkilled is by a Vig. I don't expect a Town Vig to take a stab at storyteller on Night One. I didn't see any reason for doing so. Also, there are no zombies. I supposed Mr. Blockey could be the necromancer too, but it doesn't really matter at this point.
BUT! Four Kills is exceptionally weird. With dead Undead storyteller, and lynched self-processed Undead Blockey, at least one of them HAS to be a Vampire. Yet there were four kills on Night Two! Crazy! A Vig has to be active. I can't see any other reasoning.
Also dead Wolf Ed makes the case that Ed tried to kill a vampire (bufftabby) strong. Could it be that all the Vampires are dead? Did the game start with 3 Vampires? Crazy!
Town seems to be doing exceptionally well. Of the 9 dead: 4 are confirmed non-Town, 1 is self-confessed Undead, 1 is likely Undead (bufftabby), leaving Three that may or may not be Town (CIAS, peeker, paul). Even if all three are Town, Town is in a strong position.
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 18, 2009 14:28:11 GMT -5
Did I miss something that states that the Magician role is unique?
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 18, 2009 14:31:20 GMT -5
Did I miss something that states that the Magician role is unique? Nope. The only role with a numbers restriction are the Witches--either three or none.
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 18, 2009 14:57:21 GMT -5
Hmm. So hockeyguy's counterclaim is a bit more tenuous. But I strongly believe hockeyguy is a Magician, since his claim makes little sense otherwise. If Parzival really is a Magician, then getting him killed doesn't seem terribly high on scum's list of things to do.
Also, hockeyguy makes a good case against Parzival to support the counterclaim. Unfortunately, I'm of the opinion that players are inconsistent because they are people. Inconsistency isn't exclusively a scum trait.
And pedescribe might as well full claim witch. Everyone knows that is the case now. If he really is a Witch, he should full claim and be official-like. If in the future, pedescribe claims anything other than witch, I'd lynch him. Not revealing who he found to be Town is only excusable if he is a Witch and can guarantee he will survive to the next Day. A Seer can't make this guarantee.
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 18, 2009 15:19:17 GMT -5
On review, I notice that Parzival's reveal of bufftabby is very late in the day. So late that bufftabby didn't have a chance to respond. I agree with Cookies: Parzival's claim and reveal timing stink.
My ponderings now wander towards whether or not a Vampire knows who tried to kill them. The rules state the Vampire will "know this happens" which could mean knows that an attack failed, or could mean knows who attacked and failed.
It's also possible that Parzival tried to kill bufftabby and failed, thus concluding she's a Vicar.
Though with the Necromancer likely dead, losing the Vicar isn't the end of the world.
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 18, 2009 15:23:58 GMT -5
My ponderings now wander towards whether or not a Vampire knows who tried to kill them. The rules state the Vampire will "know this happens" which could mean knows that an attack failed, or could mean knows who attacked and failed. A Vampire attacked by a non-Vig will know they were attacked by the non-Vig (identity, not role or faction) and know they killed the attacker.
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 18, 2009 15:42:31 GMT -5
So A Vampire Parzival could have been attacked by Ed, and therefore know Ed tried to kill him. Wolves would know this too. But Parzival wouldn't be able to share that information. He probably should have just sat on it, but maybe in seeing Blocky exposed as Undead, he panicked and cooked up the idea. Which worked BTW.
Also, if Parzival really were Town, he would have been chomping at the bit to reveal what he knows at the beginning of Day Two. It's possible he's cool enough a cucumber to resist blurting out the information or he felt since Ed was dead it didn't matter, but blurting is more obviously Townie. I do feel that holding information can be pro-Town, but the late reveal is more likely scummy. Also, if he really was the Magician, he would have read the rules with that perspective. I'd expect a Townie to think through all of the possibilities for their situation. Parzival isn't consistent with that.
I'm rapidly thinking: Parzival: vampire bufftabby: vicar
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 18, 2009 16:12:02 GMT -5
The Undead, Wolf, Wolf reveal of night One deaths reminds me of another aspect of the Coroner that makes the role more powerful than it appears. By revealing Role information the day after the murders, the Coroner makes the job easier for the Detective. Since the Detective cannot tell who did the killing in the case of a vampire, it makes little sense to investigate a dead wolf. If the Detective had known that Ed and Meeko were wolves, then the Detective would know to investigate storyteller's death instead. Not a guarantee, but it's unlikely that a wolf would have killed another wolf, so at least the odds of success would be better. This happened in C1.
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 25, 2009 14:39:37 GMT -5
Looks like I'm talking to myself again. Bufftabby turning up Wolf is a surprise. PI certainly wasn't expecting that. Parzival's claim really looks bad now. He said he redirected to bufftabby, but since bufftabby is a wolf the kill should have gone through. I don't think it makes any sense for bufftabby to have been protected, so the only way for bufftabby to have survived night one is if Parzival was lying. That's super good for Town. Parzival can't be a Wolf. That would be so dumb to implicate bufftabby as a Vampire.
So that leaves Two dead Townies and Two unknowns. Not bad for Town. The only risk they have now is winning too fast and risk of losing two witches before they can find all the Cabal.
Two dead on Night Three implies one Wolf kill and one Vampire kill. The reduction from 4 kills on Night Two implies that at least one person with a killing power died between Night 2 and before Night 3. Parzival is the only player who that could be since none of the 4 who died on Night 2 have a killing power. So that means Parzival is a Vampire? Weird.
That leave one kill from Night 2 unaccounted for. Vig maybe? I think it plausible that the Vig might have taken a shot at bufftabby given Parzival's claim. Lucky for him bufftabby turned out to be a Wolf!
So... Night 2: 1 wolf kill, 2 Vamp kills, 1 Vig kill. Then on Night 1 there would have been 1 wolf attempt, 3 Vampire attempts that lead to 3 deaths. I can buy that.
3 Vampires! Wow!
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 25, 2009 15:30:27 GMT -5
I appreciate your comments. I'd contribute, but it's hard for the spoiled to avoid spilling information. I think the other spoiled are feeling the same.
I will say that ToDay ought to be interesting, given the amount of information that's floating around now.
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Post by sachertorte on Sept 25, 2009 16:10:06 GMT -5
You know what? I'm perplexed by pedescribe. If he really is the Seer, he really had me fooled into thinking he was a Witch. The thing that concerns me is that pedescribe said he investigated someone and found them to be Town, but didn't reveal who that was. This was something I could back because I thought pedescribe was a Witch who was confident in his survival. As a Seer, pedescribe should not have been so confident in survival. Not that I don't believe him. He ID'ed an Undead and is on record regarding Idle Thoughts. pedescribe must be an investigator of some sort. I wonder if he is lying and is pretending to be the Seer, but is really a witch. That actually makes the most sense to me. With a Seer, I'm guessing there is no Detective. Not that Town really needs one at this point.
Also, the witches should have at least 2 readings now, though the mortality rate might have them in an information deficit.
Also also, the Coroner, if alive, should have a read on how well the Town is doing. If I were the Coroner and I saw that Town was way a head (meaning cross kills are less likely now) I'd claim. There's no help in hiding much longer. Claim, self-confirm and draw fire away from the Witches. Same for the Masons. A nice pile of confirmed town would be awfully nice now, and could draw fire away from witches. On the other hand, I could see a lone wolf/Vamp saying 'fuck it' and kill from the unconfirmed pool. This could end up killing witches and giving the game to Cabal, but it could also kill Cabal. Yeah, Confirmables should claim!
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