Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 22, 2009 16:43:57 GMT -5
Discussion really seems to have been killed here, hasn't it? The more I think about it and look at it from an outside perspective, the less likely it seems that hockeyguy is town. That's good, because I know you'll lynch him regardless of what he says, and I think this won't be two mislynches. The Coroner will have to decide whether to claim tomorrow morning; I'd be in favor of it if we still have one around. Presumably if hockeyguy is scum he's a Wolf, and thus might try to take 'credit' for a kill this Night, accusing some other person of attacking him. The argument that I could be vamp actually does make sense from an outside view, and so I think it could actually be a good motive for the Wolves. Having failed to kill me, maybe they think I am a Vampire and need to be lynched. Especially since bufftabby died last night (which would be natural for me to do as a vamp after my claim, trusting that she's a role I could kill). That makes me happy enough with my own lynch that I'll : Vote: Parzival [/color] (with a free ballot box stuffed with hockeyguy votes as a parting gift). My previously suspicious person was CatInaSuit, who's now dead. (As an aside, my motivation for sharing the info about Ed was the discussion of crosskills. I didn't mention it earlier as I was waiting for bufftabby to post in the thread.) CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies brought up the vampire idea, which could mean she's scum trying to push that angle. I feel a little like she's been trying to find good reasons to get people voting for me today. But she also could have come up with those on her own, based on the evidence. She also accused me of building a case against hockeyguy, when I was one of the only people originally arguing for him being town. Sister Coyote dropped a vote without explaining. I don't know if a false-claiming Hockeyguy was trying to have another day of stifled discussion and quick voting, but such a move is anti-town at least. (There may be others who dropped in quick votes later, she was the first to do it without any reason of her own.) [/quote] So wait...are you a magician or not?!
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Sept 22, 2009 16:58:50 GMT -5
I have a real problem with Hockeyguy's case, as set out in D03.005. He's starting with the assumption that Parzival is nonTown, and then goes looking for scumtells. With that sort of attitude, he's going to find them. The problem, as others have mentioned, is that there is no grounds for concluding that there must be only one Magician. But the whole post is based on the assumption that there is only one Magician. Hockeyguy makes no attempt to show that is, or even might be, the case. I don't like it. Not at all.
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Post by hockeyguy8435 on Sept 22, 2009 17:19:39 GMT -5
I have a real problem with Hockeyguy's case, as set out in D03.005. He's starting with the assumption that Parzival is nonTown, and then goes looking for scumtells. With that sort of attitude, he's going to find them. The problem, as others have mentioned, is that there is no grounds for concluding that there must be only one Magician. But the whole post is based on the assumption that there is only one Magician. Hockeyguy makes no attempt to show that is, or even might be, the case. I don't like it. Not at all. Yet I've said previously that there's a chance there are two Magicians. I just find it highly unlikely. So yeah, I guess I am assuming he's lying. Not to mention that the first thing I did when he claimed was double check to see if there was the chance he could also be a Magician, seeing that he could, I then went through his prior posts. What I found, coupled with the fact that I thought it unlikely there were two Magicians, led me to believe what I posted. I never listed it as fact, just my opinion. Also, how do you propose I scum hunt, if not to suspect someone of being Scummy, and diagnose their posts? Shall I guess, or try to construct a case based on their actions?
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Sept 22, 2009 18:25:21 GMT -5
I have a real problem with Hockeyguy's case, as set out in D03.005. He's starting with the assumption that Parzival is nonTown, and then goes looking for scumtells. With that sort of attitude, he's going to find them. The problem, as others have mentioned, is that there is no grounds for concluding that there must be only one Magician. But the whole post is based on the assumption that there is only one Magician. Hockeyguy makes no attempt to show that is, or even might be, the case. I don't like it. Not at all. Yet I've said previously that there's a chance there are two Magicians. I just find it highly unlikely. So yeah, I guess I am assuming he's lying. Not to mention that the first thing I did when he claimed was double check to see if there was the chance he could also be a Magician, seeing that he could, I then went through his prior posts. What I found, coupled with the fact that I thought it unlikely there were two Magicians, led me to believe what I posted. I never listed it as fact, just my opinion. No, you declared that Parzival was a liar. Read your opening salvo again. "He lied. He’s not the Magician, I am." "Now that we know he lied, what can be gained from his former posts?" That's not the wording of someone who is considering the possibility that there are two Magicians. That's the wording of someone who has rejected all bar one alternative, or who wants to create the impression that he has rejected all bar one alternative. I can easily see this as a Townsperson's attitude; indeed I think it quite likely after this that you are who you claim. But I can't dismiss the possibility that you're a nonTownsperson trying to create the impression that you are Town by sticking your neck out in this way. I'll await more evidence on that. So for now I doubt that I'll be voting for you, even though I believe your conclusions are wrong. How about starting with a pointer that someone might be a nonTownie? The first issue I have with your case is that you started from the position, not supported by the ruleset or any other evidence, that there is only one Magician. Pleo went out of his way to say that there are no numerical limitations on any role except Witches. The second is that your argument that Parzival wanted to spare BS PI is false. In D01.208, the question that Parzival asked in the first paragraph was "Would it be better to let the Vig (if they exist) take him out tonight?" The whole point of the proposal was to consider trying to gain a tempo by setting up BS PI for a Nightkill. It's simply not correct to say Parzival wanted to spare Boozy Squid. I'll have to come back to this thread tomorrow afternoon (if I allow myself to post in the working day, I'd neglect things like jobhunting) to place my vote.
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Post by hockeyguy8435 on Sept 22, 2009 19:00:05 GMT -5
Yet, when asked, I said I didn't dismiss the fact that Pleo said there was a chance more than one of certain roles existed, but the fact that I found it very unlikely, led to me calling him a liar. No, I didn't say as much in my post accusing him of such, but I did elsewhere. I'm aware there could be multiple roles in the game, but I think it unlikely there are two Magicians. Perhaps I should have said as much in my first post, but I had typed it up during the Night phase to post at the start of the Day. And in my edits prior to posting, I didn't think to add that in there. I had it all down in my head, so it all seemed to make sense, so I thought I had my entire thought process down, but it fails to transfer over, as you can't tell what I'm thinking.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 22, 2009 19:09:29 GMT -5
Why would you vote for yourself if you're really telling the truth? At the very least, go down fighting if you're really what you claim to be.
I'm not voting just yet, but when I do, there's a 95 percent chance it'll be for Parzival.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 22, 2009 19:10:36 GMT -5
Eh, what the hell, Day ends soon anyway, no? Vote Parzival
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Post by PrecambrianMollusc on Sept 22, 2009 19:39:52 GMT -5
Sorry not been available. On a read through it would seam Parzival would have to be a wolf if he is lying , assuming buftabby turns up vamp. However that would mean he went ahead and false claimed yesterday (not gettiing anyone lynched in the process but possibly getting buftabby vig killed) without coordinating with his fellow wolves. I suppose he could be cabal and was chatting away, and there is certainly no rule that says wolves have to coordinate before pulling any stunt. I did wonder about the convenience of Parzival being targeted by a wolf and happened to pick an apparent vamp (only explanation for eds death as far as I can tell if ed was a killer)
regardinmg lats nighst body count - could one death be a warlocks curse? Although tha would just mean a delayed death from night one. Parzival self vote - can't figure that out - if he is town he obviously has some reason to do it, or if he is wolf then he could be saying to his follow wolves to give up and go with a parzival lynch and not expose themselves through a voting record of holding out for
Vote Parzival
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Sept 22, 2009 20:11:51 GMT -5
To answer your question, pedescribe, yes I am a Magician (an unpowered one though). My self-vote is simply my acceptance that I probably need to die in order for scum to be found. I'd only bother fighting if I were more convinced that hockeyguy is Town, since two mislynches would obviously not be good. Trading myself, vanilla town, for someone who's pretty likely scum seems fair enough.
And I can't really see a good defense for myself in this position. I can't Some of the power roles likely have clues that would bolster my position, but I really would not want them to claim. Considering that I'm vanilla, and anything that someone would have (barring an investigation of myself) would be unlikely to really confirm my role.
I may miss the end of the day, so if there is a last minute reprieve, I suppose I should just Unvote: Parzival Vote: hockeyguy8435
hockeyguy, how will you react when I turn up Town? (If you prefer, consider it as a hypothetical).
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 22, 2009 21:18:27 GMT -5
If you can't beat the low-participators, join 'em. Busy as hell week for me, but I've been reading and haven't had much new to add aside from noticing that Parzival is laying some smears in my general direction on his way to the gallows. Actually, Natlaw was the first to speculate on your possible vampirism yesterDay. And pedescribe was also before me in his discussion of the possibility of you being a Vamp after hockey had counter-claimed you: How do we know that hockeyguy is telling the truth? Couldn't he be a wolf or vampire trying to get us to lynch town? After all, Magician is about the safest claim for a wolf, since they are more difficult to confirm than the other town roles. Also, how could Parzival have survived Ed's attack unless he was a Magician or a Vamprie? Unless...Ed never attacked Parzival in the first place? But then why would he claim at all? And...ayiyi, this makes no sense. Back up. We can be reasonably sure that Ed attacked Parzival Night 1. That would a risky thing to claim unless Parzival knew Ed was a wolf. Unless...unless Parzival was just trying to set up an airtight Magician claim by using a dead fellow wolf! Plus, the wolves have no beef with the cabal, but want the Undead dead! Hmm... Also, it is possible that there are simply multiple Magicians. Honestly, I'm not so sure I should trust hockeyguy. The accusation of Cabalism makes no sense, since the Cabal would have had to have a secret investigation power or kill-surviving power for it to work. And while that's possible, it strikes me as unlikely that: a) They would just happen to use it Night 1 b) They happened to protect the guy who was attacked, or they happened to investigate the dying wolf. It's possible, but unlikely. On the other hand, why would hockeyguy counterclaim unless he was town? If Parzival is the magician and we lynch him Today, then hockeyguy is going down Day 5. That would be foolhardy. Unless...unless hockeyguy investigated Parzival and found out he was lying. Which would imply a secret investigation power. Which is unlikely. Possibilities, in order of likelihood: a) Hockeguy is a Magician, Parzival is a wolf trying to obtain a believable claim b) Hockeyguy is a (seer/witch), trying to hide his true nature, Parzival is a wolf trying to obtain a believable claim. c) Hockeyguy is a Magician, Parzival is a Magician. d) Hockeyguy is a Wolf, Parzival is a Magician. e) Hockeyguy is a Magician, Parzival is a cabalist. f) Hockeyguy is a (seer/witch/non-town with secret investigating power), Parzival is a cabalist Hmm... Vote: Parzival [/color] Although I want to hear what he has to say [/quote] A relevant post of mine: Speaking for myself, I don't reject the idea that there are 2 magicians, but I think it is unlikely. And for all of the heat that hockeyguy is getting for deciding to claim, Parzival still hasn't explained why he didn't claim earlier yesterday. That line of questioning cuts both ways. I don't think Parzival is Cabal. I think he is Vamp. But just because hockeyguy might be wrong about the Cabal case, doesn't mean that he can't be the Magician. Just because hockeyguy may have claimed at a time that can be spun to make people question his claim doesn't mean that he isn't the Magician. This idea that it would have been more "pro-town" for hockeyguy not to claim but to instead select Parzival as a proxy might sound good on paper, but I don't think hockeyguy was going to be high on the scum or vig's Night killing list which would potentially do nothing to diffuse whatever damage a lying false-claiming Magician might be up to. He counter claimed an apparent liar. And now he's catching heat for it driven largely by the apparent liar. I expect there are quite a few scum vaguely supporting Parzival and attacking Hockeyguy, and I hope the rest of the Town is paying attention. Catching heat...having doubt cast upon him...having suspicion cast upon him...maybe I'm just clairvoyant or could smell that you'd eventually come out as overtly suspicious of Hockeyguy by the end of the day. And lastly, no one has to look too hard for good reasons to vote for you. But thanks for the smears.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 22, 2009 21:19:31 GMT -5
Someday, I will finally please the quoting hamster god.
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Post by hockeyguy8435 on Sept 22, 2009 21:32:54 GMT -5
hockeyguy, how will you react when I turn up Town? (If you prefer, consider it as a hypothetical). If, on the severe off chance you turn up Town, well then it really doesn't matter how I react, does it? I know I'll be lynched. I'm basically Vanilla now anyway, since I highly doubt anyone attempts to NK me with my power still active. So if I do get lynched because of this, then at least it'll be a "Vanilla" member going, rather than anyone else. But, I don't think I'll have to worry about that come Day Five (or whatever time you're alignment is revealed).
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 23, 2009 7:06:03 GMT -5
hockeyguy, how will you react when I turn up Town? (If you prefer, consider it as a hypothetical). If, on the severe off chance you turn up Town, well then it really doesn't matter how I react, does it? I know I'll be lynched. I'm basically Vanilla now anyway, since I highly doubt anyone attempts to NK me with my power still active. So if I do get lynched because of this, then at least it'll be a "Vanilla" member going, rather than anyone else. But, I don't think I'll have to worry about that come Day Five (or whatever time you're alignment is revealed). Night 4. Day 5, for all intents and purposes.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 23, 2009 7:06:59 GMT -5
If, on the severe off chance you turn up Town, well then it really doesn't matter how I react, does it? I know I'll be lynched. I'm basically Vanilla now anyway, since I highly doubt anyone attempts to NK me with my power still active. So if I do get lynched because of this, then at least it'll be a "Vanilla" member going, rather than anyone else. But, I don't think I'll have to worry about that come Day Five (or whatever time you're alignment is revealed). Night 4. Day 5, for all intents and purposes. Actually, if we have a vig, you probably won't live to see Day 5 if Parzy is town.
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Post by hockeyguy8435 on Sept 23, 2009 8:57:21 GMT -5
Night 4. Day 5, for all intents and purposes. Actually, if we have a vig, you probably won't live to see Day 5 if Parzy is town. Only if I'm blocked. My power is still active so if the Vig attempts to kill me, the kill will then be redirected, although that would then confirm me.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 23, 2009 8:58:40 GMT -5
Actually, if we have a vig, you probably won't live to see Day 5 if Parzy is town. Only if I'm blocked. My power is still active so if the Vig attempts to kill me, the kill will then be redirected, although that would then confirm me. Ah, but if Parzy is town, that means you're probably lying, which means you wouldn't be able to redirect the vig's attack.
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Post by hockeyguy8435 on Sept 23, 2009 9:28:21 GMT -5
If I'm lying, then you're correct. I welcome a nightly Vig attack, but preferably I'd welcome a Wolf, Vamp, or any other non-Town attack first. That way, come morning, when I provide the name of my would be attacker.
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Post by hockeyguy8435 on Sept 23, 2009 9:29:18 GMT -5
If I'm lying, then you're correct. I welcome a nightly Vig attack, but preferably I'd welcome a Wolf, Vamp, or any other non-Town attack first. That way, come morning, when I provide the name of my would be attacker, we'll have someone else to lynch, either then, of after I'm shown to be Town.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Sept 23, 2009 13:11:20 GMT -5
To Cookies - It's true you weren't the one to 'bring it up', but you were the first to state it as what you thought I am. Natlaw dismissed it and pedescribe only included it as part of a confused question. The vampire bit in itself doesn't bother me so much as the feeling I get that you assumed I'm scum and are trying to prove that case. For hockeyguy to do that is somewhat sensible - if he's Town, he would strongly suspect I'm lying. Anyway, it can't be a "smear" if I turn up scum. It's merely my last bit of analysis.
Looks like I'm getting my neck stretched soon; hope you get some scum out of this.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Sept 23, 2009 13:14:41 GMT -5
Two hours and I'm still without a vote. For reasons discussed earlier, I don't see that Hockeyguy has established a case that Parzival must be a liar. Neither do I think it necessarily follows that if Parzival does turn out to be a Magician that Hockeyguy is not one. Rereading Day Three, and posting in a sort of stream-of-consciousness style. D03.005 : "Vote early, vote often. FCoD is as FCoD does, and this is his philosophy. In D03.012, FCoD promises to "think about it." Those two posts, plus a comment on the Night dead, are the sum total of his contribution to Today. So Mr. Hypnotoad, what is the results of your cogitation on the possibility that there might be multiple Magicians? Or indeed, any kind of role? Yes I recall your promotion. I'd still like to know. D03.010 : Sister Coyote jumps on the bandwagon that has been started by the others. Fortunately she's not the third vote (that was DarkCookies). Could be someone wanting an easy vote, could be someone willing to trust - or maybe test - someone else's claim. It did make my antennae twitch a bit. D03.016: Bill votes and disappears. He said he would reread, but has not posted since. Possibly systemic overload, since he's in the same set of games as I am, and he got sent on a business trip which may or may not have finished yet. All the same, I'd have liked feedback. D03.025 : Hockeyguy, you do realise that it's quite possible the Town started this game in the minority? Consider : if there were six Wolves, three Undead (2*Vampire + 1 Necromacer) and 4 Cabal at the start, that's thirteen out of 25, leaving 12 Townies. And none of those numbers are prima facie unreasonable, given the experience of the first two games. At best, I think we're looking at 14 Town to 11 nonTown. With those numbers, the Town can't win just by hanging. Parzival's suggestion that we leave Boozy loose for a Vig to kill was perfectly rational under those circumstances. D03.031 : Parzival proposes a course of action for a Magician to take when faced with another Magician claim that has upsides whether the first claim is true or false. D03.064 : Hockeyguy, I saw the acknowledgements, after you were called on your omission. What I did not see, and still do not, is any recognition that your case was founded on it. D03.067 : PCM, I was thinking about a Warlock's curse. It would explain where the extra death came from; we'd have the same three sets of killers operating on N1 and N2, plus the curse falling on the head of whoever killed the Warlock's N1 target. That's turned out too long, and still no vote. I'm going to vote Today for a player who seem to have put in a drive-by vote on an apparently easy lynch and then disappeared without saying any more. I recognise that he's been busy IRL, but I think he could have spared a post to share his reflections on the new piece of information. Vote: FCoD Vote: BillMc
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Post by The Real FCOD on Sept 23, 2009 13:33:42 GMT -5
Well, I guess I should have seen this coming. Yeah I've been a little quiet. I'm following along! :-D
I think that there's a good possibility that there are two Magicians. Even so, I get the feeling that Parzival isn't one, basically what Kat! said. Especially now that Parzival seems to be ok with his own lynch, I say we give it to him!
--FCOD
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Post by julie on Sept 23, 2009 13:41:40 GMT -5
If Parzival is non-Town, I've got to say that we have the politest baddies. They just meekly go an get killed. Hrm.
I would generally be of the lynch 'em both mentality, but it just doesn't feel quite right under this setup. Still, I don't like not having some accountability so,
Vote: hockeyguy
The timing of the claim threw away the power in the role, which just doesn't feel like what a Town player would do.
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Post by julie on Sept 23, 2009 13:45:16 GMT -5
Dammit, I need to stop using the quick reply. The lack of preview is getting me.
Vote: hockeyguy
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