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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 14:27:00 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Oct 9, 2009 14:27:00 GMT -5
More deaths: julie and PrecambrianMollusc. Another one comes back: Sister Coyote. And a couple more stay dead: BillMc and DeathByIrony are Town.
It's Day Six!
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 14:36:20 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Oct 9, 2009 14:36:20 GMT -5
Huh. Can't wait to hear from Sister Coyote.
--FCOD
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 14:54:20 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 14:54:20 GMT -5
Not surprised PCM was killed since he was someone who believed me based on knowing what his PMs said.
Dot's Town, yet so am I...so that proves you're wrong, Pede/MHaye. There must be something else that gives inconclusive results. You're just going to have to face it. Better you face it now than have to face it forcefully if I die.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 14:56:22 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on Oct 9, 2009 14:56:22 GMT -5
I was blocked again. I get the feeling that I'm going to be spending the rest of this game blocked every Night, at least until such time as I die, the last of Cabal dies, or the game ends.
Two deaths strongly indicates a Vamp still running around. And DBI being Town means that Idle could not possibly have been killed by anyone except a Vampire. Which means his claim of Vicar is a lie.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:03:54 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 15:03:54 GMT -5
I was blocked again. I get the feeling that I'm going to be spending the rest of this game blocked every Night, at least until such time as I die, the last of Cabal dies, or the game ends. Two deaths strongly indicates a Vamp still running around. And DBI being Town means that Idle could not possibly have been killed by anyone except a Vampire. Which means his claim of Vicar is a lie. Wrong. You and MHaye and Pede keep saying this. It's wrong. I don't know where you're getting it from but it's wrong. Where and how do you know this, for sure? Please point it out to me...because if it does, in fact, say that "Inconclusive results are only gotten if the person was killed by a Vampire", then the game is Gastard. Please cite where it says this since you're saying it so surely.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:08:48 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on Oct 9, 2009 15:08:48 GMT -5
How about the very rules of the game?
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:15:17 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 15:15:17 GMT -5
And? Does that say it will fail ONLY if the killer is a vampire? No, it doesn't. Seems to me you're making a gross assumption that every inconclusive result means it's a vampire.
That does not say "Inconclusive results come only when death is by Vampire" OR "It will fail WHEN the death is by vampire" it specifically says "It comes IF death is by vampire". There's a difference, in case you didn't notice. The latter (how it's written) uses the word IF..which doesn't nessecarily mean soley, in case you failed to realize this.
So, what it boils down to is.....it doesn't say what you're implying it says and you're just making a gross assumption that it will always be the case.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:17:32 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 9, 2009 15:17:32 GMT -5
Julie's report of her PM and special power matched my own.
I enchanted BillMc on the night I died. Clearly, however, not well enough.
I enchanted Idle on the night he died. I did not enchant Julie at any time.
I enchanted myself the first two nights, because there was too goddamn much WiFoM for my tastes.
I also raised myself:
Please note, however, that I am not vouching for Idle, just saying that I did in fact enchant him.
Can't be back until probably tomorrow, but hopefully sooner.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:18:00 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on Oct 9, 2009 15:18:00 GMT -5
Ok then you tell me what exactly else, within the rules of the very open set up we have here, would cause it to fail besides a Vamp kill. A block? Nope, those are Night actions and the Detective is a Day action. A secret power? This is possible sure. Completely and utterly unlikely, but possible. No, BY FAR the most likely answer is that you're lying about being a Vicar.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:18:18 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 15:18:18 GMT -5
The role description is telling you a reason how you COULD get an inconclusive result, that's all. It doesn't mean you can't get it other ways either. I shouldn't have to be pointing this fact out to you.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:24:06 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 15:24:06 GMT -5
Ok then you tell me what exactly else, within the rules of the very open set up we have here, would cause it to fail besides a Vamp kill. A block? Nope, those are Night actions and the Detective is a Day action. A secret power? This is possible sure. Completely and utterly unlikely, but possible. No, BY FAR the most likely answer is that you're lying about being a Vicar. If I was able to tell you that, do you really think I wouldn't have told you by now? But reread it. It's telling you how you could get an inconclusive result (if the person was killed by a vamp). TO ME (and, I'd think, to anyone else who has common sense), this means that's a way, yes..but not, nessecarily, the ONLY way. Seriously, you're smarter than this. I'm surprised at MHaye as well, who just said as recently as a Day or two ago to keep an open mind (to me, of all people) and always have the possibility in there that anything might be the case. Seems to me that's being hypocritical. The PM says a way how the Dectective can get one.......it doesn't say all the ways he/she can get one. Saying, with surity, that the way the role description is written, means there is no chance, at all, there couldn't be any other way to get an inconclusive result is nothing short then just a huge assuption...and not one of you can deny that.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:43:07 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Oct 9, 2009 15:43:07 GMT -5
Idle, Yesterday I said we could rule out a block as the reason why Dot failed to get a result on your killer. You said " No we can't." Very well, how could DBI be blocked, and by whom? Give reasons that have not already been disproved or countered. My contention is that no open power can block a Day power, and that no faction would be given a secret power of roleblocking during the Day. Prove me wrong. Show me which faction can have been given the power of Day blocking (dealing with the problems that the Wolves special power is known to be bound up in a Nightkill by the Alpha Wolf, and that you claim the Undead secret power is to recruit.) Speaking of that, who killed Julie? If you were correct and Kat! recruited her, she would be a Vampire, with the Vampire's immunity to Nightkills (except by the Vig, of course, and our claimed Vig claimed to be blocked last Night.) So if she was a Vampire, she should still be alive now, unless the real Vig false claimed.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:51:11 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Oct 9, 2009 15:51:11 GMT -5
Okay. Either Julie's town, or Julie and Sis Coyote are both vampires (in which case Julie wouldn't have died). I know which one I find more likely. I am inclined to believe that both Julie and Sis Coyote are town.
This means that Sis Coyote resurrected Idle. But Idle claims FCoD killed him. But DBI (who is town) said that the result was inconclusive.
We know that Idle was a Vicar because his PM matched PCM's, who was definitely Town.
The way I see it, here's how the evidence stacks up:
Idle was town: 3 Idle still is town: 2 Idle was recruited after he died: 1
Vote: FCoD
Note that I think we should kill another killer toDay. Why? Given that Natlaw was Cabal (you sneaky genius), Cookies is almost certainly actually the last wolf. If we can find the other killer, we have more time to get rid of the other 1/2/3/4 cabalists.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 15:54:05 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Oct 9, 2009 15:54:05 GMT -5
How could DBI's result have been inconclusive if Idle's killer wasn't a vampire? Who has a Day blocking power?
It doesn't add up. More likely, Idle is lying.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:07:53 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 16:07:53 GMT -5
Whoa..I didn't even see SisterCoyote's message...she snuck it in there...
Well, then, I think that says how I was raised. Sure I could have still been recruited sometimes..there's always that possibility....but the same can be said for anyone.
It's been stated, now, that I was enchanted. Thus, that's how I was raised. So if the recruitment DOES come from a vamp killing you (and I still assume it does), that's certainly not what happened in my case, as pointed out now.
MHaye:
No, idea. I don't know any more than you (apparently) don't. All I know is..it's a pretty major assumption to assume that just because it gives A reason one COULD get an inconclusive result, it means it's THE reason one WOULD get an inconclusive result.
The role description is saying the first. You're assuming the second. The difference here is A/COULD and THE/WOULD.
No idea. I can think of a few possible reasons, though, among them being: 1. Julie was killed by Wolves 2. Julie was telling the truth too.
If 1. There's your answer If 2. It shows that a killing by a vamp doesn't mean one comes back as one..therefore why all the hubbub about if I was killed by one? Pay no attention to the fact that it's impossible, of course...since I'm a Vicar.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:09:04 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Oct 9, 2009 16:09:04 GMT -5
Here's something we haven't considered. What if the Cabal can recruit (secret power, of course)? That would explain a lot.
At this point, here's how I think it shuffles out: Town: Me Sis Coyote FCoD OR Idle Thoughts MHaye [someone?]
Wolf: Cookies
Vampire: [someone]
Cabal: FCoD OR Idle Thoughts NAF [someone?]
Unsure: Hockeyguy Nanook
I'm still unsure about Hockeyguy. His actions with Parzival seemed very Town, but his claim was the go-to false-claim and I'm not satisfied enough to put him in the Town category yet.
I'm pretty sure Nanook is a Vampire. Think about it--he's been killing wolves, we've got a killer unaccoutned for, he's been claiming to be blocked but there's still been two kills per...The only reason I put him in unsure is because the logical choice for the Cabal to block would be Nanook.
NAF is almost certainly Cabal. The fact that his curse has never gone off, along with the fact that there's got to be Cabal somewhere, and the fact that he hasn't been acting townish, makes me think so.
Cookies, obviously, is a wolf.
If Idle is telling the truth, he had to have been killed by a secret Cabal kill. Got to have been. Which means FCoD is cabal if Idle is still town. Unvote: FCoD But! If, as I posited, Idle got recruited by the Cabal (a logical secret power for them, given their projected numbers at the moment) it would explain the irregularities between DBI, Idle, Idle's former role, and FCoD. The only stumbling block is Sis, but that might be a simultaneous resurrection.
Sis and I are definitely confirmed, and MHaye's claim, along with a general vibe I'm getting from him, is enough to convince me he's town. And, as pointed out earlier, one of FCoD and Idle is definitely town.
Vote: Nanook
Since I believe he's a vampire.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:13:38 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Oct 9, 2009 16:13:38 GMT -5
Thinking about it more, I'm more inclined to believe Idle again (although I'm wobbling all over).
The only question is, why would the Cabal use their secret kill to kill him?
Unless...what if the Cabal could kill regularly? That is, they could kill like the wolves, maybe with a restriction or two thrown in there. That would account for pretty much all the kill counts. And it would satisfactorily answer every oddity in the Idle Thoughts conundrum.
The only question then, is, wouldn't that make the Cabal overpowered? Not if there are 3 of them.
Bing! We have our answer.
Unvote: Nanook
Vote: FCoD
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:13:56 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 16:13:56 GMT -5
How could DBI's result have been inconclusive if Idle's killer wasn't a vampire? Who has a Day blocking power? It doesn't add up. More likely, Idle is lying. Not that I expect YOU to believe me since I think you're scum with a definite type of regular or one time killing power. On preview: Pede....anyone can be recruited if that's the case. It applies to anyone..so everyone should be looked at with that same suspicion. So this isn't to you, since I see you now get it..but to others who persist: Seems very silly and wasteful, therefore, to just put all the suspicion on me because of an assumption.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:14:44 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Oct 9, 2009 16:14:44 GMT -5
But that would mean all of NAF, Hockeyguy, and Nanook are town. Would that mean the town had a significant advantage at the beginning?
I don't think so...the wolf and undead body counts were ridiculously high at the beginning of the game.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:19:52 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Oct 9, 2009 16:19:52 GMT -5
Did we ever figure out what the secret powers for each faction were? I'd go look now but I have to go do some errands.
Town: Self resurrecting Witch Doctor? Cabal: random kill redirections? Undead: ? Wolves: ?
--FCOD
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:20:32 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 16:20:32 GMT -5
But! If, as I posited, Idle got recruited by the Cabal (a logical secret power for them, given their projected numbers at the moment) it would explain the irregularities between DBI, Idle, Idle's former role, and FCoD. The only stumbling block is Sis, but that might be a simultaneous resurrection. I think you were more correct the first time. To me, it seems more logical, now that you know I was raised by the Witchdoctor and not a Vampire, to assume FCoD killed me, if you believe I'm still Town/Vicar. Because the recruition you talk about could be said for anyone...not just me. Equal chances. Whereas there are greater chances that since it's now found I was witchdoctor raised and probably am Town (even a "might" or "possibly" here works), that FCoD is a killer. Because think about it: You found out I was Town the night I died...so I wasn't turned by then. I was then raised by SC, so you know I wasn't turned by that or by that Day. The only window of chance I could have been, seems to me, is over last Night...assuming that the recruition takes place over Night--it may not, though. Even if that was the case, it wouldn't matter from the point I still made when you knew I was still Town: FCoD killed me. Vote FCoD
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:21:43 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 16:21:43 GMT -5
NETA: One of those "by that"s above should be "on that".
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:22:25 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Oct 9, 2009 16:22:25 GMT -5
Why would Sister Coyote targeting you prevent a Vampire recruitment from affecting you?
--FCOD
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:25:47 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Oct 9, 2009 16:25:47 GMT -5
Did we ever figure out what the secret powers for each faction were? I'd go look now but I have to go do some errands. Town: Self resurrecting Witch Doctor? Cabal: random kill redirections? Undead: ? Wolves: ? --FCOD Well, now I'm even more convinced you're Cabal. Boozy Squid was almost certainly lying about the redirector thing. We have no idea what the Cabal power is (though I suspect, at this point, it's a regular restricted communal kill). To pass on his lies seems like a Cabal trying to throw me off track. Anyway, Undead: Something Blockey had. Probably a bomb, given the Death count that Night. Wolves: No idea. Hey Cookies, what's the wolves's secret power?
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:26:37 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 16:26:37 GMT -5
Why would Sister Coyote targeting you prevent a Vampire recruitment from affecting you? --FCOD That sounds like the type a question scum would ask to try to cause doubt to others. Are you getting desperate?
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:32:01 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 16:32:01 GMT -5
To seriously answer, though....I do not believe being recruited (if the undead are the ones able to do it) comes from one dying from non-vampire means (because I wasn't) and then a vampire being able to vamp you. I believe that if it's the undead with the recruiting power, a vampire looking to do that would have to be the killer of the player.....and that they'd rise again one day later.
Since I was not killed by a Vampire, it's impossible. Unless you think Vampires are able to ressurect random, already-dead bodies that they come across. I don't think so, though. I think it's very improbable for anyone to think that since vampires turn people into undead THEMSELVES, while they're still alive (hence the being killed by one part).
This post is mostly answering/talkingi to FCoD, the killer.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:33:00 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Oct 9, 2009 16:33:00 GMT -5
*because I wasn't killed by a vampire, is what I'm saying in my second parenthesis.
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:38:39 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Oct 9, 2009 16:38:39 GMT -5
Well, now I'm even more convinced you're Cabal. Boozy Squid was almost certainly lying about the redirector thing. We have no idea what the Cabal power is (though I suspect, at this point, it's a regular restricted communal kill). To pass on his lies seems like a Cabal trying to throw me off track. Um, actually I was remembering this post when I tried to think of any potential secret powers we discovered, not parroting Mister Blockey from Day One. I think I get it. Complete speculation: The cabal had a one-shot power to randomly redirect all kills. They used it last Night. Thanks for the smudge, tho. Idle, how do you know you died from non-Vampire means? --FCOD
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Death By Irony
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:43:29 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Oct 9, 2009 16:43:29 GMT -5
A voice emanates from beyond the grave:
AVENGE ME! Go Town!
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Day Six
Oct 9, 2009 16:47:43 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Oct 9, 2009 16:47:43 GMT -5
Whoa..I didn't even see SisterCoyote's message...she snuck it in there...
Well, then, I think that says how I was raised. Sure I could have still been recruited sometimes..there's always that possibility....but the same can be said for anyone. It gives a reasonable explanation of one question, yes. It does not settle the other. No, idea. I don't know any more than you (apparently) don't. All I know is..it's a pretty major assumption to assume that just because it gives A reason one COULD get an inconclusive result, it means it's THE reason one WOULD get an inconclusive result.
The role description is saying the first. You're assuming the second. The difference here is A/COULD and THE/WOULD.
This is an open game, with the exception of one secret power per faction. The ruleset as published provides three Nightkill powers; Vampires, Vigilantes and Wolves. Of these, the Detective cannot identify only a Vampire. The published rules do not contain any mechanism for the Detective's power to be blocked. This is not open to doubt; to verify it all one needs to do is read the rules. Since there is only one way, in the published rules, for a Detective to fail to learn the identity of a killer, how do you suggest that DBI failed to learn the name of your killer? It has to be a secret power, doesn't it? There is simply no other answer. So, which factions? That's what I want you to answer.
No idea. I can think of a few possible reasons, though, among them being: 1. Julie was killed by Wolves 2. Julie was telling the truth too.
If 1. There's your answer If 2. It shows that a killing by a vamp doesn't mean one comes back as one..therefore why all the hubbub about if I was killed by one? Pay no attention to the fact that it's impossible, of course...since I'm a Vicar.If Julie was a Vampire, she could not have been killed by Wolves, since Vampires are immune to being Nightkilled (except by the Vig). So 1. is impossible. That leaves Julie as telling the truth. Which means she was not recruited. There remains a contradiction in your case, which is that a Townsperson attested that you were killed by a Vampire, which you claim is impossible. I cannot see a plausible mechanism to reconcile the two claims.
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