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Night 5
Dec 2, 2009 15:33:36 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Dec 2, 2009 15:33:36 GMT -5
From the Day before, all had said who they were and this time the discussion fell on two of them.
Who would it be, a self proclaimed alien or a human
The discussion was calm, but quiet through the day, but in the end the decision was fairly clear.
The alien must be neutralised.
Marched to the stasis booth, once again the machine whirred into life.
Brain pattern held.... Name: Peter Passenger Status: 3rd Party Passenger Role: The Infector Passenger Ability: Mad Bomber/Vote Switcher
shaggy has been placed into stasis
Night 5 begins now. It will end on Friday 4th December at 20:00 GMT
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Natlaw
Snark
Natlaw is a Modron short and stout.
Posts: 740
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
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Night 5
Dec 2, 2009 15:37:08 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Dec 2, 2009 15:37:08 GMT -5
December...
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Night 5
Dec 2, 2009 18:44:03 GMT -5
Post by shaggy on Dec 2, 2009 18:44:03 GMT -5
Bummer...oh well it was fun while it lasted...Spoil me please?
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Night 5
Dec 2, 2009 20:03:06 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 2, 2009 20:03:06 GMT -5
Hey, what up, third-party killer, if you exist. sinjin or skeezix, I am talking to one of you. If you exist, your best chance of winning this game is to kill Pleonast toNight. He is almost definitely Scum. He is likely not the last Scum. Killing him staves off a possible Scum victory. Admittedly, it helps Town, but (presumably) you can't win if the Scum do.
Think about it. Seriously, think about it. Your best chance is to kill Pleo now, and then head fake us into lynching the last Scum toMorrow. Kill him, and then we'll bring this thing home.
Kill Pleonast.
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Night 5
Dec 3, 2009 11:16:55 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Dec 3, 2009 11:16:55 GMT -5
Work killed my time this week and since I usually post from work, I didn't have the chance to post. You lied regarding asking Mod about the Scum kills or he chose to answer only you. This is your reason for voting for me? Because my role gets information others didn't? I hope you get treated the same way you're treating me the next time you have a role that gets extra information. shaggy must die. I consider all scum and all third party exclusives as part of the Town's lynch burden and I expect the game to be balanced to that extent. I believe shaggy has an exclusive win condition as a product of Sister's Coyote's anti-alien powers. Shaggy must die. I realize that the ideal would be for scum to kill shaggy, but they aren't going to do that. This is a game of chicken that scum have no reason to bother with. They have the luxury of knowing when killing shaggy will simultaneously remove shaggy AND fulfill their own win condition. In essence, waiting for scum to kill shaggy, is waiting for scum to win. This is what I've been saying and my analysis backs up, but some players have gone irrational. The mod telling him how scum does or does not operate is unlikely if he is town. How am I supposed to have even a chance to distinguish vanilla town from vanilla scum if I don't know if the scum-kill is an action? Think about it! (Or, not. You're another possible scum like story who's claimed vanilla--exactly the sort of claim my role is designed to test. No wonder you're so eager to attack me.) It occurs to me that Catinasuit has implemented the tie = no lynch ruleset. I have fundamental problems with this rule as it can be gamed by scum. In theory, shaggy is an alien, so I think his lynch will go through. However, I also see the benefits of a scummy Pleonast switching his vote at the last minute to push a tie. Sure, he would expose himself, but he's already under heavy suspicion, so squashing a lynch would be very much to scum's advantage. Any voting system can be gamed, but the "tie == no lynch" rule means that any gaming must be transparent. The transparency means that scum cannot manipulate the vote without risking discovery. I think that means the rule is effectively neutral with respect to town vs scum. Brain pattern held.... Name: PeterPassenger Status: 3rd PartyPassenger Role: The Infector Passenger Ability: Mad Bomber/Vote Switcher See, I told you all he was the killer. Although, I'd still like to know if he was an exclusive or inclusive third party. Hey, what up, third-party killer, if you exist. sinjin or skeezix, I am talking to one of you. If you exist, your best chance of winning this game is to kill Pleonast toNight. He is almost definitely Scum. He is likely not the last Scum. Killing him staves off a possible Scum victory. Admittedly, it helps Town, but (presumably) you can't win if the Scum do. Think about it. Seriously, think about it. Your best chance is to kill Pleo now, and then head fake us into lynching the last Scum toMorrow. Kill him, and then we'll bring this thing home. Kill Pleonast. This is pure distraction. A third party wins separately from town and scum. Even if story is right about me being scum and yet another third party is still alive, why should they care? This post is simply to distract town into thinking I'm scum. Besides the facts being against story ( shaggy is revealed as the bomber and yet story is still pushing that there's another third-party killer out there), look at motivations. I'm a role that can disprove vanilla-town claims. I'm the only role that can disprove the vanilla-town claim of scum who investigate as town. Look who's pushing for my lynch/death the most--the player who's been investigated as town but has claimed vanilla. If story is the godfather, I'm the only one who poses any risk to him and a scum victory. So of course he's after me. Scum can do pro-town things, but will always have a scummy motivation. I think story's motivation is clear.
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Night 5
Dec 3, 2009 11:48:34 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 3, 2009 11:48:34 GMT -5
Blah blah blah.
Captain Third-Party Who May Not Exist But If You Don't, Then DAMN Were the Scum Overpowered in This Game:
Kill Pleonast. It will further your win condition. Don't take my word for it; do the numbers yourself. To do anything else is to hand the game to Pleo and whoever else is working with same.
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Night 5
Dec 3, 2009 12:47:56 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Dec 3, 2009 12:47:56 GMT -5
I see three main points against Pleonast. Two I find reasonable and One I do not.
That Pleonast reports that Catinasuit told him that scum execute the kill as individuals is not particularly telling one way or another, and I'm shocked that storyteller AND sinjin AND redskeezix all point to this as reason for Pleonast to be scum. If Pleonast were town, then I would expect Catinasuit to answer questions based on role. The question Pleonast asked is fundamental to the role he describes. He could be lying. He could be telling the truth. The evidence doesn't point either way on this point.
The two points that I do find convincing, with a tertiary kicker for Pleonast ducking the comments are:
(1) Pleonast stated without qualification, certainty in peekercpa being scum. At that point in time I know I wasn't sure peekercpa was scum so I wonder why Pleonast asserted such certainty.
(2) Pleonast was pushing for shaggy's death over peekercpa's while simultaneously stating that once peekercpa was dead (presumed roleblocker) that Pleonast's power could catch a vanilla executing the scum kill. If Pleonast's utility depended on peekercpa being dead, then why kill shaggy first?
(3) I've stated these points before, and Pleonast has happily ducked them.
I have no read on redskeezix at all, which is troubling. It doesn't help that I've never played with him before (but that isn't anyone's fault). Perhaps I should actually read Day Two and Three, but I haven't and I don't expect to.
storyteller is acting peculiar. Usually I find his reasoning reasonable, but in this game his logic has been off. I completely agreed with him regarding Chucara on Day One, but he did nothing to avert killing someone who was likely to be Town. I find that choice strange. The second data point that needs evaluation is peekercpa specifically brought up storyteller's non-dead status. In other words, peekercpa was implying that storyteller was alive because storyteller was scum. We now know that peekercpa is scum. So does that mean that Scum Peeker was actually trying to get Town storyteller lynched by pointing this out? How would that have worked out? lynch storyteller, find out he is Town, then lynch peekercpa for 'pushing' the issue? That doesn't seem like the scum play here. If scum were deliberately avoiding storyteller in the hope that Town would lynch storyteller, then they should have happily sat on the sidelines and hoped a Townie would push for storyteller's lynch due to longevity. But that isn't what happened. So what if peekercpa and storyteller are both scum? I find this situation more plausible. (1) If peekercpa dies, then it looks good for storyteller. (2) if storyteller dies, then it looks good for peekercpa. In order for storyteller to be Town, we have to believe that peekercpa openly and deliberately brought up storyteller's not-dead-status. I have a hard time believe that peekercpa is that sloppy.
sinjin, I don't really know. I probably should re-read, but we all know that I won't. I will say that it is unlikely in my mind that both sinjin and Pleonast are scum. My reasoning is the kill shaggy point of view. Both Pleonast and sinjin were pushing for shaggy's lynching on Day 4. I find that position uncomfortable for scum to take. Would they do it? maybe. But I think it is a very shaky place to be. I would have to check, but I think they both took that position before I did.
If I die tonight, I encourage Special Ed to stay OUT of the discussion. Let the unconfirmed talk it out first. Conversation, even at this late state, will be important for the endgame. And to the lucky town players to survive into endgame, Lucky You! you get to read the entire game again!
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Night 5
Dec 3, 2009 12:57:16 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 3, 2009 12:57:16 GMT -5
If I die tonight, I encourage Special Ed to stay OUT of the discussion. Let the unconfirmed talk it out first. Conversation, even at this late state, will be important for the endgame. And to the lucky town players to survive into endgame, Lucky You! you get to read the entire game again! Can I at least recite famous speeches from American history?
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Night 5
Dec 3, 2009 14:18:26 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Dec 3, 2009 14:18:26 GMT -5
I see three main points against Pleonast. Two I find reasonable and One I do not. That Pleonast reports that Catinasuit told him that scum execute the kill as individuals is not particularly telling one way or another, and I'm shocked that storyteller AND sinjin AND redskeezix all point to this as reason for Pleonast to be scum. If Pleonast were town, then I would expect Catinasuit to answer questions based on role. The question Pleonast asked is fundamental to the role he describes. He could be lying. He could be telling the truth. The evidence doesn't point either way on this point. Thank you. Don't forget Ed, too. They can't all be scum, but I'm not sure why they're getting hung up on that. My role is not especially powerful, but it would be useless otherwise. 1) At the time, I couldn't see any plausible way peeker's claim could be true. (I addressed this back on Day Four Post 110.) 2) I stated my reasons for lynching shaggy each time I voted for him ( Day Four Post 95 and Day Five Post 18). In summary: based on our current knowledge of the game, a third-party killer presented a greater threat to the town and the evidence pointed to shaggy being that killer. 3) I thought I answered them before.
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Night 5
Dec 3, 2009 15:00:53 GMT -5
Post by Red Skeezix on Dec 3, 2009 15:00:53 GMT -5
Aside from what appears to be a slip, I have a hard time believing pleonast's claim. His role, besides being useless to town without his assurances that the mod passed him info about the scum, seems like investigative overkill. If he and Ed have been telling the truth, then 6-7/20 roles in this game are investigative. That seems like a lot to me. Ed could be lying about his role, but I can't think of a reason for the dirx lynch that fits with "Ed is lying".
2. Special Ed claimed Detective 14. Pleonast claimed Weak tracker
All of these have come back as town, although not all are role confirmed (MHaye is just a WAG that seems to fit):
9. Sister Coyote - Xenobiologist (Alien Investigator) 3. BillMc - Ambassador (Gets info on kills) 12. pedescribe - Photographer (Tracker) 15. Natlaw - Journalist (Role coroner) 18. MHaye - Celebrity gossip (Possible Watcher?)
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Night 5
Dec 3, 2009 15:11:57 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 3, 2009 15:11:57 GMT -5
Aside from what appears to be a slip, I have a hard time believing pleonast's claim. His role, besides being useless to town without his assurances that the mod passed him info about the scum, seems like investigative overkill. If he and Ed have been telling the truth, then 6-7/20 roles in this game are investigative. That seems like a lot to me. Ed could be lying about his role, but I can't think of a reason for the dirx lynch that fits with "Ed is lying". 2. Special Ed claimed Detective 14. Pleonast claimed Weak tracker All of these have come back as town, although not all are role confirmed (MHaye is just a WAG that seems to fit): 9. Sister Coyote - Xenobiologist (Alien Investigator) 3. BillMc - Ambassador (Gets info on kills) 12. pedescribe - Photographer (Tracker) 15. Natlaw - Journalist (Role coroner) 18. MHaye - Celebrity gossip (Possible Watcher?) Didn't MHaye actually claim Watcher? Or was that the Heroes game?
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Night 5
Dec 3, 2009 15:24:28 GMT -5
Post by Red Skeezix on Dec 3, 2009 15:24:28 GMT -5
I think that was the heroes game.
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Night 5
Dec 3, 2009 16:18:05 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Dec 3, 2009 16:18:05 GMT -5
How am I supposed to have even a chance to distinguish vanilla town from vanilla scum if I don't know if the scum-kill is an action? Think about it! (Or, not. You're another possible scum like story who's claimed vanilla--exactly the sort of claim my role is designed to test. No wonder you're so eager to attack me.) It's not really a tracker's role to distinguish vanilla scum from vanilla town. All a tracker can do is determine that someone has been out and about in the night and generally who that person visited. Then the tracked person gets to try to justify what they were doing out of their warm comfy bed last night. If you find someone who has claimed vanilla actually performed a night action you've caught them in a lie and we have a large tendency to LAL's in this game. There is no reason for you to be told that scum employ a specific person to do the night kill, none. You don't need to know that in order to utilize your power. How do you know he was the killer? And which killer was he? Was he responsible for the explosions or the other killings. Given SisterC's description and Cat's night reveal I'm inclined to believe he was tagging/infecting people so he could "control" them and steal the win rather than killing them.
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Night 5
Dec 4, 2009 14:58:58 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Dec 4, 2009 14:58:58 GMT -5
I was worried that I wouldn't be able to post by Dawn, but my 2:00 meeting got cancelled. So for better or for worse here is some additional blathering from me. I didn't post these thoughts yesterday because on the off-chance that we have an SK and he or she stupidly decided to listen to storyteller, I didn't want to affect that.
Anyway, here are more concerns about storyteller: He's been "off," in my opinion. At some point he wondered why scum didn't kill Special Ed. My response at the time was, 'Duh, roleblocker.' I have trouble accepting that storyteller would be so... off. Basically, I don't think storyteller is so thoughtless as to not piece together immediately why Special Ed was not killed. His ponderings seem fake to me. The only pause I have on this point is that if storyteller were scum, he would be acutely aware as to why Special Ed was not killed, so aware that bringing it up at all seems like an odd thing for scum to do.
Furthermore, storyteller should have been wondering why Ed is still alive during Day 5 when the scum roleblocker was dead; but he didn't. Something weird is going on in storyteller's head, and that makes me want to kill him!
(BTW, I see two explanations as to why Ed is still alive: either scum are down to godfather type players and don't fear Ed's investigation, or scum and the SK played a game of 'let's not double up on the investigator and take out a mason instead.' I really hope the latter is the case because that would be funnier -- though worse for Town since we would then have two dead in the morning**).
The second point is his direct address to the SK. I have trouble with this. Why is storyteller telling the SK what to do? Does he really think the SK will listen? I do not agree with storyteller's assessment that the SK should kill Pleonast. (This is why I'm posting this as close to Dawn as I can). I find it ludicrous to think that an SK will kill anyone other than confirmed Town. The SK doesn't want to get lynched either, and having Pleonast around to take the lynch tomorrow is super good for the SK. I know this. The SK should know this. And storyteller should know this. So why the begging of the SK to kill Pleonast? To me, storyteller's posting on this topic looks like a move to project "Hey! look at me! I'm NOT the SK!" Of course, the very fact that I'm waiting until near Dawn to post this shows some level of acceptance on my part. I'm at least willing to entertain the possibility that the SK is really really stupid and will kill Pleonast for us. So if I have that opinion, I should at least extend the same courtesy to storyteller. But I still find the entire missive odd. It's possible that storyteller fears 2 scum and an SK remain, but the game balance indicates that this is unlikely.
Of course there is that annoying investigation by Special Ed. I'm quite annoyed that storyteller may very well be Town. But he certainly isn't acting like he usually does when he is Town. In other words, I think storyteller's lack of acuity is intentional.
** If Ed and I are BOTH dead at Dawn, then we've got an interesting stand-off going on here: Case 1: likely 1 scum, 1 SK, and 2 Town. lynch scum and SK wins. Lynch SK and scum wins. Lynch TOWN and game gets decided by night actions. In this case the best Town move is for Town to claim and DEMAND their own lynch. Scum won't do this because it would lose the game for them, SK won't do this either. It's weird, but DO IT! Or No Lynch. I'm running out of time. Think about it!
Case 2: 2 scum, 1 SK, 1 Town. Scum wins? Yuck! That means 4 scum to start + Guy + Mad Bomber + SK (7 of 20). Nah. I don't think Case 2 is likely to happen.
If there are 5 remaining players at Dawn then it is unlikely that scum and SK doubled up two nights in a row. That is there is probably not an SK.
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