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Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 8, 2009 8:10:40 GMT -5
So I'm not going to participate much in the post-game, because I'm next on line to moderate and the ravening hordes are already pressuring me to send them PMs. Just to say that from my perspective, the only really significant problem here was that the game continued long after the Town had no remaining chance of winning. I remember there used to be these adventure games (King's Quest; oh, Lord, King's Quest) where you would make an error that would make the game unwinnable - except you wouldn't realize you had done so until many hours of gameplay later, when you finally confronted the vicious Chicken of Bristol only to realize that the Apples of Doom you needed to kill the Chicken grew only on the Tree you chopped down half a continent ago.
This was exceedingly frustrating, and it kind of happened here, and I think it's a good lesson: games should be euthanized when they're over. Otherwise, I mean, you spend a lot of time reading and re-reading and trying to analyze what you find, and discovering you've been doing this for absolutely no reason for practically a month makes it much less likely that you'll do it again in the future.
Otherwise, though, I had fun and I should have argued more against Chucara's lynch. I fell into that self-protection trap; I felt Chucara was almost definitely Town on the basis of the evidence, but also felt that if I appeared too certain, someone would ding me for it (and when I did appear too certain, with Pleonast, someone did ding me for it!). But I was vanilla, and if I had been lynched it wouldn't have mattered; I should have just argued my convictions and let the cards fall as they may.
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Post by Renata on Dec 8, 2009 8:57:09 GMT -5
Eh, Chucara was hardly your fault; three Town voted for him along with the two Scum, and who was next on the list anyway? Pedescribe? Me? Both also power roles, as useless as we turned out. And you're right enough about the "too certain"; that was half the reason I was suspicious of you as it was.
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 8, 2009 10:25:09 GMT -5
Was a good game. See if I don't hoard my information from now on, though. You didn't think through your position from the scum standpoint: You would become essentially confirmed town, but expected not to be targeted by scum; thus, making you unlikely to be protected. Versus a third party who may or may not have been a threat to scum, and would likely be a prime target of the town. That made you a perfect Night-One scum kill. and the Scum really believed me when I started my post by saying, "I'm not the investigator, but....." We weren't sure, but since we could block you and had masons to kill, we did what we did. I can't help wondering if that role was just a tad overpowered. I agree. A single extra kill is very powerful. Two extra kills remarkably so. Extra kills due to targeting the target and you are looking at game-breaking. I'm not sure that it is necessarily game-breaking, since extra kills can be balanced by extra townies. However, I'm not sure the game was balanced with that in mind. I think this is a problem with using the point system--game designers can forget that the points are an initial balancing. You still need to look at things like mislynch numbers, confirmed-pool numbers, and worst-case and bad-case scenarios for each faction. I should note that the extra kills scum could get were not sure things and were entirely dependent on choosing the bomb targets well. I think that kind of mechanism is good since it rewards good play. Having two non-scum vote switchers mitigated the scum vote switcher. And we should get credit for eliminating the others (we didn't know about shaggy, but we did intentionally try to lynch the third party). Personally, I strongly dislike vote switching mechanisms in all cases. It's too anti-town and taints one of a vanilla townie's two sources of information (the other being lynch and death reveals). I'd prefer games stay away from such things entirely. Hang on...if Pleonast was really scum, then that means...I WAS RIGHT! WOO! Haha! Hoo. Well, about that, anyway. Kinda screwed up everywhere else. Hehe. Yeah, I was scum, but your reasoning for it was poor. I always play the way I played this game. I had to be subbed out because I found/saw that redskeezix was scum. Ouch. I guess that means you can't play Mafia on this board unless you're scum. ;D Thanks for being honest!
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Post by sachertorte on Dec 8, 2009 11:27:28 GMT -5
I'm not sure that it is necessarily game-breaking, since extra kills can be balanced by extra townies. However, I'm not sure the game was balanced with that in mind. It wasn't; hence the term "game-breaking." But the expectation is for 2 extra deaths with nothing to balance it. Furthermore the bombs posed 100% reward with Zero Risk. Under no circumstances could scum harm themselves with the bombs. They could not even be caught planting the bomb since the action was delayed. So scum get a reward for 'good play' and zero punishment for 'bad play.' That is not balanced. I think it is fallacy to think that Role B, balances or 'mitigates' role A simply by existing. Role B counters Role A iff role B lives. Role B alone is innocuous. Role A alone is powerful. Hence, not equal. That you got the town vote switcher lynched is not material. You could trivially NK the vote switcher as well. I agree. I find Town vote switchers rather pointless, but overall, harmless. If I recall correctly, pedescribe cited your demeanor as being scummy. I don't see how you can argue against that. I had to be subbed out because I found/saw that redskeezix was scum. A second account for game play makes the most sense. Also hosting scumboards somewhere else might make sense too, though less nice for archive purposes.
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Post by sachertorte on Dec 8, 2009 11:31:26 GMT -5
This was exceedingly frustrating, and it kind of happened here, and I think it's a good lesson: games should be euthanized when they're over. Otherwise, I mean, you spend a lot of time reading and re-reading and trying to analyze what you find, and discovering you've been doing this for absolutely no reason for practically a month makes it much less likely that you'll do it again in the future. I agree. There is a world of difference between arguing that someone is clearly Town over arguing that someone is clearly Scum.
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 8, 2009 14:15:20 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, pedescribe cited your demeanor as being scummy. I don't see how you can argue against that. It's easy to argue--I can say "I always play this way". It's possible there is a subtle difference between how I play as town or scum, but since ped admitted he hasn't played with me much, the demeanor argument couldn't (and didn't) carry much weight.
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Post by sinjin on Dec 8, 2009 15:53:15 GMT -5
Just want to add so people don't get the wrong idea; I really did enjoy playing the game. Especially getting down on peeks Catching Pleo out was nice too. I was just a tad frustrated that I spent way too much time trying to figure out who was doing the killing when it turned out not to make any difference after night 2.
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Post by shaggy on Dec 9, 2009 17:16:59 GMT -5
I'm surprised shaggy didn't try to use it to save himself? Yeah the reason for that was the night before the day was over I was not in the lead, then by the time I had come home from work, the day was over and I was lynched. Since days end here at 3pm which is before I can get back from work and check.
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 10, 2009 21:55:52 GMT -5
Actually, it would've been interesting to see what would've happened if you had manipulated the votes. I expect you would've been lynched the next Day anyway, but maybe you could've won by then.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Dec 11, 2009 4:23:51 GMT -5
Ouch. I guess that means you can't play Mafia on this board unless you're scum. ;D Thanks for being honest! Or the hosts can have the scum boards be on boards they have or the (off site) scum boards I own...haha.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Dec 11, 2009 4:24:37 GMT -5
Natlaw--it's okay! It was sorta funny how it turned out, though. You were right and I was wrong in how the voting went, that first day, yet Pleo still turned out to be scum. Just one of those things!
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Dec 11, 2009 4:26:29 GMT -5
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Dec 11, 2009 4:27:09 GMT -5
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