Meeko
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I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
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Day 1
Feb 24, 2010 19:25:36 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Feb 24, 2010 19:25:36 GMT -5
ouch! sorry, I just bit my tongue Why, you didn't get punched in the head, did you?
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Day 1
Feb 24, 2010 19:47:41 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 24, 2010 19:47:41 GMT -5
I happen to agree that trying to impose some sort of consensus-imposed policy is likely not to go over well and likely to have a lot of collateral damage to the Town if we try. I plan to take each of my votes one at a time within the context of the game at the time that I make the vote, and to justify any and all votes I make to the best of my ability.
I am willing to hear policy proposals that might differ, but I do have an admitted bias against them, including the bias that it is more fun to play against the other players than the mod. Including the bias that I think debating such policies may not be the best use of our time, which is why I was trying to emphasize the need for such proposals to be as balanced and complete as possible so that we don't have to spend a Day just haggling out the details of the proposal.
That being said, I am trying to maintain an open mind and not be a hypocrite who attacks the concept of policy voting strategy in one breath and then advocates a policy of suspecting players who propose policies. If you can bring a well-supported proposal to the table, I will do my best to put my biases aside and hear you out as best I can.
I'm not referring to anyone in particular when I say "you", I mean you the reader of this post.
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Day 1
Feb 24, 2010 20:15:31 GMT -5
Post by special on Feb 24, 2010 20:15:31 GMT -5
I have been thinking about the boarda count thing for most of the day today, and the more I think about it the more I think that trying to put restrictions on how we use the system will only tie town in knots while always providing a neat loophole for the scum. I don't see any way around it. It would be nice if we all agreed that we don't want to place all three votes without good reason, but borda counting is a mess no matter how you slice it. I think getting too caught up in figuring out how to game borda count will only end up getting us to trip over each other. I agree. I also think our discussion and awareness of the problems of borda voting might help us limit our vulnerability to it. SO I think this has been a worthwhile discussion, though it really hasn't given any insights into anyone's alignment. At least for me.
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Day 1
Feb 24, 2010 20:16:17 GMT -5
Post by special on Feb 24, 2010 20:16:17 GMT -5
ouch! sorry, I just bit my tongue Why, you didn't get punched in the head, did you? Sometime, my dear Meeko, I feel like I've been punched in the head from the inside. In fact, going to the ENT on Friday to have him look inside my head.
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Day 1
Feb 24, 2010 22:28:37 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Feb 24, 2010 22:28:37 GMT -5
well, it should go without saying that using another game for behavior in this game is not ideal strategy. the whole, no grudges, yada yada yada. Snipped. Why do I get the distinct impression that Peeker is talking to me, but not giving me eye contact? Peeker, I think it would help ANY mafia game we both play in, if you would address me by name to points to need to bring up on my behalf. I will do so likewise. I assume you meant the snipped quote towards me. To be clear, I am not holding grudges. I simply meant to say that I believe Scum, in general, for any game, will maneuver / position themselves to obtain the most flexibility they can get, while still appearing town. I'm not sure how grudges enter play, exactly. Abstractly, I think town in general should hold a grudge on Scum in general. yeh, i was talking to you. way to go sherlock. the only point i was trying to make, and apparantly ineffectually, i might add, was that another game is another game. and on this board bringing up other stuff doesn't play real well. and scum will maneuver themselves to look townie. thanks, i needed that observation. grudges come into play in a variety of ways. maybe i got smoked by a scum last game. shoot maybe i believed a claim and was led to look like a fool of a took. that's part of the game. shoot, fluid took me to task on the dope because she doesn't like me. but as far as i am concerned we are on square one in this game right now. meh, maybe she still doesn't like me (kind of like kasparov and karpov). still gotta play the game objectively.
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Day 1
Feb 24, 2010 22:47:50 GMT -5
Post by MentalGuy on Feb 24, 2010 22:47:50 GMT -5
I thought Ed's explanation of the perils of Borda was clear and informative. How about we agree to use it as a kind of fos system. Someone pings you, you put a 1 pt vote on them, they continue to act scummy/have shady reasoning, you promote them up through 2 pts and then 3 pts, but we only ever place one vote each at a timeYes there is no rule stopping people placing multiple votes, but if we have all agreed otherwise, only scum would do so. This would only work in early game of course. In late game we need those 1st & 2nd place votes on scum A and scum B to prevent scum deciding the lynch. I just wanted to point this out to say that I disagree that we need the multiple votes in the late game to prevent scum from deciding the lynch. I think late in the game could be the most dangerous time to allow scum multiple votes. I wanted to get on the record now as stating that I am against this, so if someone tries mutliple voting near the end game, they will not be able to argue that the idea was generally accepted. I do agree with your later point that the best way to keep scum from gaming the vote count is to make every player accountable for their vote. I agree with FluidDruid that there should not really be any reason to place a second or third vote. If someone placed a one-off one point vote as a FOS, I wouldn't be upset about it. But if that player then got close to being lynched, that vote should either be removed or moved up to a 3 point vote. Because when it comes down to it, you either feel that player is the best lynch candidate or not. I do realize, though, that we can probably not get everyone to agree to this as a matter of policy, so the best we can do is pressure players to explain their votes clearly.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 0:41:55 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 25, 2010 0:41:55 GMT -5
>< Is it possible to make it so that you don't see someone's posts? I think I might benefit from just not reading Meeko's.
Meeko, do you have Asperger's? I only ask because you didn't seem to understand anything Cookies was saying, while I understood everything she was saying. I mean, she said she would eat her hoodie and it confused the shit out of you.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 0:50:21 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 25, 2010 0:50:21 GMT -5
I agree with FluidDruid that there should not really be any reason to place a second or third vote. If someone placed a one-off one point vote as a FOS, I wouldn't be upset about it. But if that player then got close to being lynched, that vote should either be removed or moved up to a 3 point vote. Because when it comes down to it, you either feel that player is the best lynch candidate or not. I do realize, though, that we can probably not get everyone to agree to this as a matter of policy, so the best we can do is pressure players to explain their votes clearly. This seems to be a pretty common train of thought concerning the Borda system. I disagree with it. By making ANY hard and fast rules about the voting we not only restrict ourselves from a potentially useful tool for Town, but also tell Scum exactly what to do to seem least scummy. Like I said, it's not the Scum that you are gonna see going against Town's wishes.... it's gonna be outspoken town. The Scum won't need to stress manipulating votes to lynch a Townie until later in the game.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 2:44:57 GMT -5
Post by luvbwfc on Feb 25, 2010 2:44:57 GMT -5
I thought Ed's explanation of the perils of Borda was clear and informative. How about we agree to use it as a kind of fos system. Someone pings you, you put a 1 pt vote on them, they continue to act scummy/have shady reasoning, you promote them up through 2 pts and then 3 pts, but we only ever place one vote each at a timeYes there is no rule stopping people placing multiple votes, but if we have all agreed otherwise, only scum would do so. This would only work in early game of course. In late game we need those 1st & 2nd place votes on scum A and scum B to prevent scum deciding the lynch. I just wanted to point this out to say that I disagree that we need the multiple votes in the late game to prevent scum from deciding the lynch. I think late in the game could be the most dangerous time to allow scum multiple votes. I wanted to get on the record now as stating that I am against this, so if someone tries mutliple voting near the end game, they will not be able to argue that the idea was generally accepted. Given that we haven't even agreed to not use multiple votes at all, due to difficulty of achieving consensus etc, looks like we will be using multiple votes the entire game, so the idea is generally accepted, just not universally.
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Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 7:19:44 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Feb 25, 2010 7:19:44 GMT -5
>< Is it possible to make it so that you don't see someone's posts? I think I might benefit from just not reading Meeko's. Meeko, do you have Asperger's? I only ask because you didn't seem to understand anything Cookies was saying, while I understood everything she was saying. I mean, she said she would eat her hoodie and it confused the shit out of you. How should I answer this, if you suggest you wont read it ? For the last time, the Eating her hoodie comment, which I suggested meant "eat my hat" WAS Ambiguous. At the time, I figured I had her over extending on her ""fishing"". She wanted to take something back, and I wanted to know if it was because of me, and the pressure I had on her at the time. If you mean to suggest I don't understand figures of speech and takes all things to their literal extent, then you are flat wrong. I am good for a figure of speech probably once a day. Would I use them if I thought they were literal?
Paul, you have played against me before. What changes now? Certainly you can see improvement in my play. If nothing else, I am more lucid than I used to be. If nothing else, I am not as vote happy as I used to be. Yet, you don't accept that. Further, take a look at my earlier play in Cecil Pond. My play is getting there. I don't think I have ever denied that I have ADHD. At the base of ADHD is distraction. Some people go so far as to call it a learning disability. I am sure that is probably showing up in your opinion in me. To answer your direct question, I flat out don't know if I have Aspergers or not. I have had my fair share of people look at me. It has been suggested, never officially confirmed. Then again, I've also been told that I am Borderline, and Bipolar. Again, also not confirmed. If you would like my life's story, I would give it to you. But at that point, I think I would lose half, if not more of the players readership in the game. Yes, I got stuff going on upstairs. I am willing to bet I am not alone here. There is a reason why I like you guys. I can easily guess why. To say nothing of the fact that I KNOW a feel of you are in the same boat with me. I am surprised that I am getting this type of question this far into my Mafia experience. Surprised further, that it comes from someone I have played with before. Surprised even beyond that, that you want to make it an issue over something that was clearly my problem. Something that I clearly clarified, and fixed. At least you aren't asking that I be forceably subbed out. Oh wait, you guys tried that once before. Not that it worked.
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Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 7:25:59 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Feb 25, 2010 7:25:59 GMT -5
NETA: A few of you.
Not a feel of you.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 7:40:00 GMT -5
Post by special on Feb 25, 2010 7:40:00 GMT -5
NETA: A few of you. Not a feel of you. thanks for clarifying. I was afraid you were cyber-groping us.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 9:23:44 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on Feb 25, 2010 9:23:44 GMT -5
I would like to throw my hat in with everyone saying making rules about borda votes won't work. IMLE any time town tries to control players like that we end up getting screwed.
Meeko, your playstyle is sliding back towards what it was in Crimson Glyph and I think that game left a bad taste in people's mouths.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 9:23:55 GMT -5
Post by fluiddruid on Feb 25, 2010 9:23:55 GMT -5
shoot, fluid took me to task on the dope because she doesn't like me. Okay, I realize this is off topic. But I have to respond to this. I never said I do not like you. I do not even know you. Read what I said in that thread again if you want to verify this. I hate to derail this thread but I feel the need to state in no uncertain terms that I have no particular issue with anyone here. I can, and will, take issue to someone's behavior in this thread. Yeesh. This is the last I'll say on this topic here, if you have questions you can PM me after the game is over.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 9:24:36 GMT -5
Post by fluiddruid on Feb 25, 2010 9:24:36 GMT -5
Sorry, should have said "I can, and will, take issue to someone's behavior in this thread if I believe it is necessary."
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 9:29:58 GMT -5
Post by fluiddruid on Feb 25, 2010 9:29:58 GMT -5
I agree with FluidDruid that there should not really be any reason to place a second or third vote. If someone placed a one-off one point vote as a FOS, I wouldn't be upset about it. But if that player then got close to being lynched, that vote should either be removed or moved up to a 3 point vote. This is a good distinction. Based on my rather unfortunate experience in the scum game ;D with getting my neck stretched -- er, cell.... lysed? -- I've come to the opinion that there's really no way we can enforce this consistently. Nobody will agree to "across the board, never use 2nd or 3rd votes", so therefore we just have to take each one as they go. Otherwise, we run the risk of having some people who agree not to exercise this right and others that don't, which gives a clear voting power discrepancy. I do think that it would be very valuable, though, to heavily question anyone who uses 2nd or 3rd place votes for existing or likely vote leaders.
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Meeko
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I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 9:38:56 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Feb 25, 2010 9:38:56 GMT -5
I would like to throw my hat in with everyone saying making rules about borda votes won't work. IMLE any time town tries to control players like that we end up getting screwed. Meeko, your playstyle is sliding back towards what it was in Crimson Glyph and I think that game left a bad taste in people's mouths. I don't know what to say to that. I'm a few steps behind, given that most other people apparently know the best way to vote here, I have no equal footing to provide input. Further, it is not like we have that much to go on, on anyone. Being Day 1 and all. I thought I had a read on Cookies, and I was wrong. I took it back. I am not sure how I can do anything better, because there is hardly anything to do right now.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Does Not Follow Directions
The only kind of panda worth preserving.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 10:18:06 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Feb 25, 2010 10:18:06 GMT -5
Vote Count: Nada
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 11:10:32 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Feb 25, 2010 11:10:32 GMT -5
Including the bias that I think debating such policies may not be the best use of our time, You know, someone says something like this in every game, I swear. Discussing/debating anything game related is not a waste of our time. Ever. The more we discuss and debate, the more chance someone will let something scummy slip.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 11:34:24 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Feb 25, 2010 11:34:24 GMT -5
Including the bias that I think debating such policies may not be the best use of our time, You know, someone says something like this in every game, I swear. Discussing/debating anything game related is not a waste of our time. Ever. The more we discuss and debate, the more chance someone will let something scummy slip. True, but some topics are more fruitful than others. Not all conversation is created equal.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 11:40:37 GMT -5
Post by MentalGuy on Feb 25, 2010 11:40:37 GMT -5
I agree with FluidDruid that there should not really be any reason to place a second or third vote. If someone placed a one-off one point vote as a FOS, I wouldn't be upset about it. But if that player then got close to being lynched, that vote should either be removed or moved up to a 3 point vote. Because when it comes down to it, you either feel that player is the best lynch candidate or not. I do realize, though, that we can probably not get everyone to agree to this as a matter of policy, so the best we can do is pressure players to explain their votes clearly. This seems to be a pretty common train of thought concerning the Borda system. I disagree with it. By making ANY hard and fast rules about the voting we not only restrict ourselves from a potentially useful tool for Town, but also tell Scum exactly what to do to seem least scummy. Like I said, it's not the Scum that you are gonna see going against Town's wishes.... it's gonna be outspoken town. The Scum won't need to stress manipulating votes to lynch a Townie until later in the game. I would like someone to show me a specific example where it would be in town's best interest to have any or all players placing multiple votes. I realize any example at this point would be hypothetical, but I would like to see an example with actual numbers of town and scum. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but I see no situation in which we wouldn't be better off with each player just voting once. I will say this, unless someone shows me such an example I am agreeing to only having one 3 point vote out at any one time. If some situation came along where I felt I needed to break that agreement, I would feel it was a serious enough situation that I would be okay with being lynched as a liar. paul, it seems like you are setting up a reason here to give scum a pass when they do cast multiple votes. "Scum wouldn't do that, it would look too scummy." Like almost everyone, I have a hard time with Day 1, but this has pinged me the most so far.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 12:07:16 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Feb 25, 2010 12:07:16 GMT -5
True, but some topics are more fruitful than others. Not all conversation is created equal. I'm not going to argue that point, no. On the other hand, sometimes an offhand comment on a less-fruitful topic is exactly the tell that someone was looking for. I'm just saying. Talking is good for us. Silence helps Scum.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 12:09:03 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on Feb 25, 2010 12:09:03 GMT -5
I don't know what to say to that. I'm a few steps behind, given that most other people apparently know the best way to vote here, I have no equal footing to provide input. Further, it is not like we have that much to go on, on anyone. Being Day 1 and all. I thought I had a read on Cookies, and I was wrong. I took it back. I am not sure how I can do anything better, because there is hardly anything to do right now. Nah, it's not that bad. I've never played a game with a borda count before either so it's weird and confusing for me too. I don't mean to quash your opinions or anything. I think that quite often, what you say is important because you come from a very different place then I do so you help me break my box thinking.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 14:51:30 GMT -5
Post by Dirx on Feb 25, 2010 14:51:30 GMT -5
Count me in as another who hasn't had any experience with borda votes before. I've been reading the discussion back and forth on it, and am still forming an opinion on it. So far, I think the best solution is to just pay close attention to accountability, like others have said. Like any other mafia game, just pay attention to who votes who, and when and why. Votes have to come with reasons. If we agree that we'll generally only use 1pt votes, then we scrutinize any player who drops a three-pointer onto somebody. Or we question the motives for additional votes from a given player. Scum can certainly use this system to manipulate votes, but it's not like they lose any accountability. Myself, I plan on using my votes sparingly. Throwing all three votes down willy nilly unless you have very good reasons to is obviously a stupid and reckless idea that will bite us in the ass when scum capitalize on it. I don't think I even plan on using 1pt FOS votes.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 15:10:59 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 25, 2010 15:10:59 GMT -5
Meeko, your playstyle is sliding back towards what it was in Crimson Glyph and I think that game left a bad taste in people's mouths. **snipped** This. Meeko, It's not that I don't see an improvement in your play. I recognize that. But you came on hard and heavy over something I couldn't find any issues with. My post was more of a "Oh here we go again..." Than a "How do I make him stop..." I will continue to read your posts, and parse what I can from them. Not sure how fruitful that will be though, and how much I will agree with your viewpoints. There are a handful of players I just don't play well with. So far you have proven to be one of them. It's nothing to take personal, and nothing to even care about... it's just something that I have to accept and deal with.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 15:33:17 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 25, 2010 15:33:17 GMT -5
paul, it seems like you are setting up a reason here to give scum a pass when they do cast multiple votes. "Scum wouldn't do that, it would look too scummy." Like almost everyone, I have a hard time with Day 1, but this has pinged me the most so far. Perhaps you can see it that way, but it isn't my aim to equip scum with anything. I don't like any strategies that limit my options to play as I feel is in Town's best interest. PedeMod has given us a tool, Borda voting, and while that tool can be useful to scum it can also be used by Town. Pede is a good mod, he wouldn't include a voting system that heavily favors scum and risk unbalancing his game. There are ways to use Borda to our advantage. Disagreeing with the majority is not scummy. Just because I have a different opinion on a matter than you or other players does not mean that I am Scum. I'll give you that it is Day 1 and we always grasp at straws Day 1, but don't let yourself be drawn to voting for anyone just because they disagree with you. Every argument has 2 sides. More often than not in Mafia you aren't gonna find scummy taking the side of an argument that majority of Town favors. They are gonna take any chance they can get to blend in and cuddle the shit out of you. I am in favor of using the Borda system how ever I feel is most fruitful. Whether that be placing only a single 1st place vote, or it be to place all 3 votes is up to my best judgement. Should my judgement be flawed, I would expect everyone else to look at whether my play was intentionally harmful to Town or just plain stupid. Even then though, stupid play should not be the sole reasoning for a primary lynch position. Also, it seems sort of OMGUS to me, so I probably won't act on it.... but your post appeals to the paranoid side of me as trying to lay the groundwork for a possible Day 1 bandwagon against me. You sow the seeds of doubt against me.... let someone else who is grasping at straws decide it is the best argument they have heard, and they have no argument of their own... they cast the first vote.... someone else in the same boat follows suit... and before you know it the scum have a safe place to park their votes. Like I said... it reeks of OMGUS so at this time I don't intend to act on it, but I see some possible scummy intentions behind your post. Lastly, as it has been said before, "Scum wouldn't do that", is a failing train of thought. It's a dangerous game, and the second you rely on it will be when they do exactly what you least expect. You shouldn't take from my previous post that scum wouldn't do that... you should take the advice that just as much as you are worried about scum being able to hid votes or take advantage of the Borda system, you should also be worried about limiting the system and allowing the scum to follow suit and let you lynch away the non-compliant. All the while knowing that you are following a dead end road, and laughing their heads off in the scum thread the whole time.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 16:16:33 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 25, 2010 16:16:33 GMT -5
I realize you may only be speaking in hypothetical mode, dirx, but if we are trying to make it less likely for scum to game the system, why advocate a policy to limit us to only use the lowest point value vote instead of the highest?
By my reckoning our three-point vote is equivalent to a single vote in a single vote setup, and the 2pt and 1pt votes can be pooled to add up to more single votes.
By trying to limit us to only the 1pt vote, when the rules allow for 3pt and 2pt, would leave our flank exposed to late-Day shenanigans that would be 2 to 3 times more powerful than the votes being cast. It mitigates much less risk than trying to limit people just to their 3 point votes.
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Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 16:30:22 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Feb 25, 2010 16:30:22 GMT -5
I realize you may only be speaking in hypothetical mode, dirx, but if we are trying to make it less likely for scum to game the system, why advocate a policy to limit us to only use the lowest point value vote instead of the highest? By my reckoning our three-point vote is equivalent to a single vote in a single vote setup, and the 2pt and 1pt votes can be pooled to add up to more single votes. By trying to limit us to only the 1pt vote, when the rules allow for 3pt and 2pt, would leave our flank exposed to late-Day shenanigans that would be 2 to 3 times more powerful than the votes being cast. It mitigates much less risk than trying to limit people just to their 3 point votes. Cookies brings up a good point here, in regards to 3 point votes over 1 point votes. I would suggest that most of the time, an idea to mandate we all vote at the 1 point level instead of voting at the 3 point level would come from scum. This is what I meant when I was going about how scum would know what they can give up, and what they have to fight for. Scum will appear town, but remain scum. Hence, they would give up voting on all three levels, if they can secure the widely held belief that we all will vote at the one point level. Scum would then game the vote system and the game clock to snipe in 3 point votes at the end of the day. Cookies, if dirx had offered the argument, outside of being a hypothetical, would you have voted dirx? At what vote level?
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 17:29:58 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 25, 2010 17:29:58 GMT -5
I don't know that this hypothetical-on-top-of-hypothetical discussion is useful, but I would not have voted for him just for such a proposal alone. It is early in the game and people are still getting their heads around things. It could be a data point towards a larger case, though.
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Day 1
Feb 25, 2010 18:23:41 GMT -5
Post by shaggy on Feb 25, 2010 18:23:41 GMT -5
I would like someone to show me a specific example where it would be in town's best interest to have any or all players placing multiple votes. I realize any example at this point would be hypothetical, but I would like to see an example with actual numbers of town and scum. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but I see no situation in which we wouldn't be better off with each player just voting once. Well first I have to say, nearing the end, lets say for hypothetical reasons you are highly suspicious of 2 people, and as it turns out they are the last 2 scum, by placing even a 2nd place vote, makes the person nervous and the more nervous they are the more chance they may make a slip. Why? Cause they now know your onto them. So in that hypothetical situation it is good to place a 2nd place or a 3rd place vote. The 2nd thing is, lets be honest here, how often do we really have a single unanimous vote for one person? So if we have all 1 place votes but spread out across many players then with out even all number one voting someone they can force a lynch. Especially when we can not even come to a agreement on whether we should all only vote one time or more. So a player excersising there right to place a 2nd vote, does not solely mean in my opinion they are scum. After all like it or not, that is part of having a borda vote system. It is why I do agree with what others have said, we will never get an agreement on restricting votes, nor do I think it is good because it leaves an open door just as much for biting us in the end. So to me I think it is best to examine each vote we do choose to make and see if there is good cause for said vote. So another words since we do not have to place 2 or 3 votes, when we do, it is not just for the sake of making it but for valid and good reasons. Atleast this is just my thinking here. Maybe I am wrong or I maybe right but this is just my thinking.
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