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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 14, 2010 23:42:24 GMT -5
Day one will be over Saturday night.
Vote in blue, unvote in red, yadda yadda. No majority is needed for instalynch and there won't be no countdown, so take your time, folks. Whoever has the most votes when Day is over bites it.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 15, 2010 0:34:47 GMT -5
I'll say pretty much the same thing about Pleo's soft claim as last time, adjusted for the different details of his soft claim this time around.
So here is my impression of what Pleo appears to have put on our plate in chronological order (if you include his explanation from the aborted game)
1)He's not vanilla town, but he was last time, and prior to that he hadn't been vanilla town very often in his personal Mafia history as a player. 2)Everything he does he tries to do for 'pro-town' reasons, and anyone who does 'anti-town' things should be lynched. 3)'pro-town' and 'anti-town' are subjective and debatable. 4)Liars should be lynched unless they can talk themselves out of it.
Implying (assuming he's Town):
a) He has a pro-town reason for honestly claiming non vanilla and decreasing the pool in which other power roles can hide, while also painting a big target on his back.
b) He has a pro-town reason for lying about being not vanilla, and that reason may or may not infer that he thinks he will be able to talk us out of lynching him should that lie be exposed, or by the time the lie is exposed he would consider himself sacrificial for the good of the Town.
Implying (assuming he's not Town)
A long list of things including...
I) Trying to draw "scum would never do that" perceptions. II) Trying to draw actions from whatever town power roles we have. III) Trying to draw a lynch. IV) Trying to fuck with our heads randomly.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Apr 15, 2010 0:43:05 GMT -5
Confirming that I did receive a role PM, but it was not for vanilla town this time. In a basic and straight forward game like this, i suppose we don't have to talk about jester, bomb and PFK/3rd parties and so on. I have no idea what to make of the claim of "not vanilla Town" and actually think it might be best to just put it a side for now and come back in a Day or two.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Apr 15, 2010 1:14:46 GMT -5
Since there has been talk about going back to "Lynch The Lurkers" in Night 0, I feel the need to try and figure exactly what we mean by the term "Lurker".
To me a lurker is not a player "not around". Sometimes people will have problems with their connection or simply forgetting the game started... This is players not playing the game.
Somehow to me a lurker is someone that post and seems to be around but not bringing anything to the game. It can be a player posting a lot of nonsense and no insight - or a player going me too all the time. Problem with this is - it's always seems very subjective when we try to agree on what is "game related content".
We also sometimes have players in games that don't post very often - but always seem to follow along and reading the game. I don't like to call them "lurkers" because they are playing the game - just doing it in their own style.
Anyway... I guess a "Lurker" can be both Scum or Town, so it's not the best solution to lynch a Lurker (IMO) even on Day 1. But in so many games lately people have been very quiet and it's starting to affect games negatively. (Is "negatively" even a word??? Looks kind of weird...).
Conclusion is: I'm okay with lynching a non-contributing player - if I have reasons to believe the players is quiet for game-related reasons and not based on RL-trouble.
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Post by ducduc on Apr 15, 2010 2:11:54 GMT -5
Somehow to me a lurker is someone that post and seems to be around but not bringing anything to the game. It can be a player posting a lot of nonsense and no insight - or a player going me too all the time. Problem with this is - it's always seems very subjective when we try to agree on what is "game related content". I'll try not to be a 'me, too' kind of player. Although my vote may be based more on me thinking the individual is an a-hole rather than on strategy as I figure things out. I'd go back and read all the prior game posts to get to the personality issues but... So, don't try to read too much into the way I vote or what I post. It really won't make a hell of a lot of sense (or difference). Everybody has to start somewhere, right? That being said, instead of voting to lynch someone, can I vote to shoot them in the back of the head instead? More satisfying that way.
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Post by luvbwfc on Apr 15, 2010 3:25:32 GMT -5
I don't like soft claims and the bag of WIFOM they open. For some reason the non vanilla claim sits even less well with me than a vanilla claim did.
vote Pleonast
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 15, 2010 6:23:01 GMT -5
Fun start. Confirming.
First question, for luvbwfc, in Night Zero.
Names?
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Post by fisheroo on Apr 15, 2010 6:34:15 GMT -5
The only reason I can come up with for Pleo's claim that would be beneficial for Town is to get us talking. Not the smartest way to do it.
If he is town, just put a big target on his back for scum. I guess the two times they targeted him last game didn't register. If he is indeed in a power town role, it's even dumber this time.
If he's scum, poor strategy as well. Way to catch town's attention on the first Day, when people have been lynched for a lot less.
You have yet to describe your rationale for this, Pleo. Care to enlighten us?
As to voting for him, not yet, Day is young. Just 'cause someone has poor strategy skills doesn't mean they're not town.
This also goes for conflicting personality/writing styles, ducduc. Just because they're an asshole, doesn't mean they're Town. The nicest, most rational, helpful posters can be scum.
Additionally, don't take the game too personally if it gets heated. If this is a good game, it will get heated.
Lynching is less messy than shooting, let's try to not make extra work for the help.
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Post by fisheroo on Apr 15, 2010 6:36:17 GMT -5
Fun start. Confirming. First question, for luvbwfc, in Night Zero. Name s? Awesome catch, story.
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Post by special on Apr 15, 2010 6:42:20 GMT -5
Somehow to me a lurker is someone that post and seems to be around but not bringing anything to the game. It can be a player posting a lot of nonsense and no insight - or a player going me too all the time. Problem with this is - it's always seems very subjective when we try to agree on what is "game related content". I'll try not to be a 'me, too' kind of player. Although my vote may be based more on me thinking the individual is an a-hole rather than on strategy as I figure things out. I'd go back and read all the prior game posts to get to the personality issues but... So, don't try to read too much into the way I vote or what I post. It really won't make a hell of a lot of sense (or difference). Everybody has to start somewhere, right? That being said, instead of voting to lynch someone, can I vote to shoot them in the back of the head instead? More satisfying that way. I'm not trying to be terribly nit-picky to the new person, but this post read to me as: "Please don't hold me accountable for what I do in this game." Not really a position a Town player should want to be taking. Better to just do your best, explain yourself as well as you can,, and see what happens. As to the '[goose' While I can't read other players' minds...especially certain players, I have to assume it comes from duck...duck...goose, the kids' game.
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Post by special on Apr 15, 2010 6:44:51 GMT -5
Fun start. Confirming. First question, for luvbwfc, in Night Zero. Name s? Awesome catch, story.Interesting. Both your response and story's lead me to believe that you might have a different name. my character name certainly led me to believe that I could guess other character names without actually knowing them. If we do have a name claim, I think you 2 should go first to see if you understand the pattern as well.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 15, 2010 7:05:57 GMT -5
Both your response and story's lead me to believe that you might have a different name. Do you have some reason to believe that we all have the same name? 'Cause that would be... weird. I have a name. I have a guess what it implies, but no certainty, because it could reflect one of (at least) two themes or no theme at all. lub just sounded more certain that other names would belong to a specific continuity than I'd expect from a player in Night Zero.
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Post by special on Apr 15, 2010 7:25:35 GMT -5
Both your response and story's lead me to believe that you might have a different name. Do you have some reason to believe that we all have the same name? 'Cause that would be... weird. I have a name. I have a guess what it implies, but no certainty, because it could reflect one of (at least) two themes or no theme at all. lub just sounded more certain that other names would belong to a specific continuity than I'd expect from a player in Night Zero. one of 2 possible themes? Really? Then there's only 1 possible name you could have in my estimation. Maybe I'm horrifically wrong or overlooking something. And I'm not sure if fisheroo is of thinking the same way as you. I'd like to hear what fisheroo has to say and then have everyone else chime in. My name certainly lends itself well to me guessing what the pool of potential character names is.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Apr 15, 2010 7:46:33 GMT -5
I'd like to hear what fisheroo has to say and then have everyone else chime in. My name certainly lends itself well to me guessing what the pool of potential character names is. I'll wait for fisheroo to respond before saying anything regarding the names. I'm never really much for name claims - seem to me it's always more a "Guess the Mind of the Mod"-game than just plain mafia. But that's just what I generally feel.
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Post by luvbwfc on Apr 15, 2010 7:52:08 GMT -5
Fun start. Confirming. First question, for luvbwfc, in Night Zero. Name s? I personally have only one name, I was responding to someone elses comment on their own name, and I assume theirs follows the same theme as mine.
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Post by luvbwfc on Apr 15, 2010 7:54:18 GMT -5
and on having read what Ed's posts
- what he said.
The theme that my name goes in to led me to assume that everyone's names were of that theme. Maybe this is an unwarranted assumption, but I don't think it's far out of the gold.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 15, 2010 9:34:23 GMT -5
Since there has been talk about going back to "Lynch The Lurkers" in Night 0, I feel the need to try and figure exactly what we mean by the term "Lurker". To me a lurker is not a player "not around". Sometimes people will have problems with their connection or simply forgetting the game started... This is players not playing the game. Somehow to me a lurker is someone that post and seems to be around but not bringing anything to the game. It can be a player posting a lot of nonsense and no insight - or a player going me too all the time. Problem with this is - it's always seems very subjective when we try to agree on what is "game related content". We also sometimes have players in games that don't post very often - but always seem to follow along and reading the game. I don't like to call them "lurkers" because they are playing the game - just doing it in their own style. Anyway... I guess a "Lurker" can be both Scum or Town, so it's not the best solution to lynch a Lurker (IMO) even on Day 1. But in so many games lately people have been very quiet and it's starting to affect games negatively. (Is "negatively" even a word??? Looks kind of weird...). Conclusion is: I'm okay with lynching a non-contributing player - if I have reasons to believe the players is quiet for game-related reasons and not based on RL-trouble. I use the term "non-participant" for someone who is posting little or nothing, and may or may not be reading the thread. A "lurker" is someone who is reading the thread, but posting little to none. Someone who is posting, but nothing of substance, is a different category. A lack of posts is anti-town. Anyone who is vanilla town has two things to work with: posts and votes. By not posting, a player makes it that much harder for vanilla townies to evaluate her alignment. Players not voting are similar. I'm tired of letting that kind of basic anti-town behavior slide. I feel the best solution is an active vigilante who targets it. However, the town needs to be ready to do it itself. If you have a real-life reason for not posting or voting, tell us and we may be accommodating. But it's still the town's option to lynch you for it. Players are reading but not actively participating are exhibiting an especially anti-town type of non-participation. It is not unusual for the town to lynch active players in the early game. The more you post, the more likely you do something that triggers a vote. It is a common scum tactic to stay low to avoid these kind of votes. Sometimes townies will try to stay low too--but that simply makes it harder for us to find the scum who are doing it. So don't do it! You have yet to describe your rationale for this, Pleo. Care to enlighten us? I will say more when it's advantageous to do so. Do you have some reason to believe that we all have the same name? 'Cause that would be... weird. I have a name. I have a guess what it implies, but no certainty, because it could reflect one of (at least) two themes or no theme at all. lub just sounded more certain that other names would belong to a specific continuity than I'd expect from a player in Night Zero. one of 2 possible themes? Really? Then there's only 1 possible name you could have in my estimation. Are you really saying that based on what you know of our role names, you know what storyteller's role name is?
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Post by fisheroo on Apr 15, 2010 9:41:19 GMT -5
Sentence
"yeah, interesting names huh? I wonder if a name claim would be at all pro town."
This reads to me like "Yeah, interesting names we all have." Implying that there has been some conversation comparing role names.
I haven't seen any of that in this or the 0 thread. Maybe I can't see the right thread?
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Post by luvbwfc on Apr 15, 2010 9:51:14 GMT -5
I was purely responding to ...... Got my PM. Who wants to name claim? And my assumptions are purely based on this and my name alone. Given the splash here I'm starting to wonder if my assumptions are justified. If, for the sake of argument my name was Batman, then I would assume that others had names also from the DC verse. A name claim here can be valuable, if people's names relate to their alignment and abilities ie Batman = town & detective, Joker = PFK & SK etc etc. In the case of my name in this game, I have made the same assumption about everyone else's name being in the same theme, but I don't know the value of a name claim at all, as I can think of no way to assign a given alignment or power to names in this theme.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Apr 15, 2010 10:05:10 GMT -5
I use the term "non-participant" for someone who is posting little or nothing, and may or may not be reading the thread. A "lurker" is someone who is reading the thread, but posting little to none. Someone who is posting, but nothing of substance, is a different category. But how would you tell them a part? A lack of posts is anti-town. Anyone who is vanilla town has two things to work with: posts and votes. By not posting, a player makes it that much harder for vanilla townies to evaluate her alignment. Players not voting are similar. I'm tired of letting that kind of basic anti-town behavior slide. I feel the best solution is an active vigilante who targets it. However, the town needs to be ready to do it itself. If you have a real-life reason for not posting or voting, tell us and we may be accommodating. But it's still the town's option to lynch you for it. Players are reading but not actively participating are exhibiting an especially anti-town type of non-participation. It is not unusual for the town to lynch active players in the early game. The more you post, the more likely you do something that triggers a vote. It is a common scum tactic to stay low to avoid these kind of votes. Sometimes townies will try to stay low too--but that simply makes it harder for us to find the scum who are doing it. So don't do it! I feel we might not have a vig in this basic game - but I might have got it wrong. Anyway... I think we're really back to a game where TOWN will have to deal with the TOWN's problems. We can't sit around and wait for the vig to take care of our problems. I think TOWN will have to deal with it - and the fact that we haven't in so many game have let to us down this path. Where we accept so many players not really playing the game.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Apr 15, 2010 10:13:57 GMT -5
I) Trying to draw "scum would never do that" perceptions. II) Trying to draw actions from whatever town power roles we have. III) Trying to draw a lynch. IV) Trying to fuck with our heads randomly. Unfortunately, with Pleo, any or all of these are possibilities. I think it's fairly unlikely he's trying to draw a lynch, but not impossible. And Scum Would Totally Do That. As to voting for him, not yet, Day is young. Just 'cause someone has poor strategy skills doesn't mean they're not town. Only Pleo doesn't have poor strategy skills, and you've played enough games with him to know that. He's an aggressive player right out of the gate, but there's nothing wrong with his ability to strategize. I'm never really much for name claims - seem to me it's always more a "Guess the Mind of the Mod"-game than just plain mafia. But that's just what I generally feel. In the case of my name in this game, I have made the same assumption about everyone else's name being in the same theme, but I don't know the value of a name claim at all, as I can think of no way to assign a given alignment or power to names in this theme. I don't think Names are going to tell us much this game, I'm generally opposed to a mass name (or other) claim, particularly on Day freaking One, and I agree with Ulla -- trying to figure out what the names mean is going to pit us against the Mod, not against the Scum. But in so many games lately people have been very quiet and it's starting to affect games negatively. (Is "negatively" even a word??? Looks kind of weird...). Yes, negatively is a word. A lack of posts is anti-town. Anyone who is vanilla town has two things to work with: posts and votes. By not posting, a player makes it that much harder for vanilla townies to evaluate her alignment. Players not voting are similar. I'm tired of letting that kind of basic anti-town behavior slide. I feel the best solution is an active vigilante who targets it. However, the town needs to be ready to do it itself. If you have a real-life reason for not posting or voting, tell us and we may be accommodating. But it's still the town's option to lynch you for it. Players are reading but not actively participating are exhibiting an especially anti-town type of non-participation. It is not unusual for the town to lynch active players in the early game. The more you post, the more likely you do something that triggers a vote. It is a common scum tactic to stay low to avoid these kind of votes. Sometimes townies will try to stay low too--but that simply makes it harder for us to find the scum who are doing it. So don't do it! Pleo's not wrong here -- better to participate. The more participation there is, the more chance Scum are going to slip, the more information we have to sift through in the wake of a lynch or NK. Talking is always best for Town. One other thing -- generally speaking, I believe liars need to be lynched far more than lurkers do.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 15, 2010 10:15:35 GMT -5
OK, hang on. Total and Pleo are kind of sort of talking about a Vig, and I want to make sure I am understanding this game correctly.
So I am addressing the following questions to our Esteemed Moderator. Dear Idle:
In the first post of the sign-up thread, you say this:
Two questions:
1. Was this post accurate? IE, may we assume that there are NO Town power roles other than the ones listed in this post?
More importantly:
2. Is this post also accurate for Scum? In essence, you have told the Scum exactly what our power roles are. They do not know the number of Masons but because they know their own numbers and roles, they can surely work out that number. Thus, will we be informed of Scum roles, if any? Is there a Godfather? A Role-blocker? Will you outright confirm the existence or non-existence of any non-Vanilla Scum in this game?[/b]
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Post by Total Ullz on Apr 15, 2010 10:47:49 GMT -5
I did talk about a vig - saying I don't believe we have one. I didn't say I knew for sure - just said that the way this game was presented to me, made a Town vig seem unlikely. But better ask the mod
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 15, 2010 11:25:24 GMT -5
I have thoughts, lots of them. But today is April 15th and I work at a CPA firm. I will have lots of time to play tomorrow, but today I am probably going to be gone a lot.
Two points that I can make 1) I brought up name claims because I thought my name was interesting and when I read the description of this game on the forum I made the same assumptions that I think OAOW/Lubvwhatever made.
2) I don't think that the names will tell us anything at all, but I think my name, at least, is neat.
3) I don't think Pleo's claim tells us anything about his scum status or his status as a Vanilla player. I will tell you that in the last game when I was scum his claim was the main reason why I wanted to kill him the first Night. Take that as you will but it's a data point of some sort I am sure.
4) It doesn't look like we are going to have the problem with silence in this game that we did in the last one, so I am not totally in favor of lynching lurkers. If the game goes silent again that will change.
5) I don't understand at all what story or fisheroo think they caught. Would they each explain in more detail what they think is going on? I agree, that if we name claim I would like one of them to go first, and the other second. Not that I think it will catch us anything, but you never know.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 15, 2010 11:49:16 GMT -5
Count me as another player who
a) recognizes the name of my character b) saw the description of the game c) doesn't see anything in my role PM that would make me afraid to join in a mass name claim at some point, but that's a pretty small sample size to use to make big decisions about such things d) read luv's coment as "Interesting names [we have here] huh?" e) can't figure out a second possible theme to go with my character name + the game description f) has no idea what character name (given my limited view of the apparent color themes) would indicate one of two possible color themes or allow storyteller to somehow deduce that character name based on it fitting in two possible color themes.
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Post by special on Apr 15, 2010 15:15:20 GMT -5
Are you really saying that based on what you know of our role names, you know what storyteller's role name is? What I'm saying is that if storyteller thinks there are 2 possible themes for the game, then I would venture a guess that I can guess what his name is, yes. I could be wrong, but I believe there is only one possible theme for our names.
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Post by special on Apr 15, 2010 15:22:18 GMT -5
Instead of discussing it, I think we should just name claim.
I don't think it will get us anywhere.
I think story has probably seen the pattern but is confused that his name might also signify a different theme that I think has never occurred.
I have a belief that once we get the name claim over, we can get on to more serious business.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 15, 2010 15:32:42 GMT -5
Doing a basic game analysis, I think there's likely to be 3 scum. That will give us ((13 - 3) - 3) / 2) = 3.5 mislynches. Each time we lynch a townie, the mislynch number decreases by 1. When it goes below 0 (or at zero depending on the scum victory condition), we lose. That means we lose the game if we lynch a 4th townie. An extra townie death costs us a 0.5 mislynch. A failed scum kill or a Night-killed scum gains us a 0.5 mislynch. We can also win the game if the number of townies in the unconfirmed pool is less than or equal to the mislynch number. If we assume the investigator can confirm 1 townie per Day-Night cycle and we start with 2 masons, the numbers are: D1, 13 players, 2 confirmed town, 3 scum => 3.5 mislynches vs 8 unconfirmed town D2, 11, 3, 3 => 2.5 vs 5 D3, 9, 4, 3 => 1.5 vs 2 D4, 7, 5, 3 => 0.5 vs -1 (Sorry, if this is confusing, but this is the kind of analysis I do when balancing game. For example, this shows me that more than 2 masons would break the game. Furthermore, even 2 masons is borderline unfair to scum unless they have a godfather role. If there's no godfather, I think 1 mason is most fair.) What this means is that on Day Four, assuming a) we mislynched every Day before, b) no more than one of the masons and players confirmed by the investigator have been killed or lynched, and c) exactly one kill each Night: then the town will have won the game. Or, at least reduced it to finding the godfather among the confirmed "town". Alternatively, if we accept the investigator as confirmed, we can win by Day Three. What happens if there's a tied vote count?And relatedly, What is the scum victory condition?I use the term "non-participant" for someone who is posting little or nothing, and may or may not be reading the thread. A "lurker" is someone who is reading the thread, but posting little to none. Someone who is posting, but nothing of substance, is a different category. But how would you tell them a part? By when and how they post. For example, in the last game, two players quickly responded to the moderator (but not any other players) three days and more than 50 posts after their previous posts. To me, that was an indication that they were paying attention to the game, but had decided not to participate. One of them was scum. Only Pleo doesn't have poor strategy skills, and you've played enough games with him to know that. He's an aggressive player right out of the gate, but there's nothing wrong with his ability to strategize. I don't think I've played with fisheroo before the WWE game, unless he's another one of the sneaky people who change their user names. Are you really saying that based on what you know of our role names, you know what storyteller's role name is? What I'm saying is that if storyteller thinks there are 2 possible themes for the game, then I would venture a guess that I can guess what his name is, yes. I could be wrong, but I believe there is only one possible theme for our names. That is interesting.
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Post by shaggy on Apr 15, 2010 16:09:39 GMT -5
Hey everyone,
Well I think the Pleo claim is more of a null-tell. Atleast i would like to think it is. Being as it drew so much attention last game, I would think it this time really was a joke about the last one. But at the same time it was the truth last time, so in the end it is just a big bag of WIFOM, that is interesting but for me I think it is a good foot note to keep in the back of the mind for a day or 2 down the road maybe.
As for names, I would think the names would not tell us anything about alignment, role or anything but rather just an interesting colour/game dynamic. My name is intersting but as for related to game specifics? Not really, but I do think it follows a certain pattern, but all that would say is a slight insite into the MOD's mind. So i think if we do, then fine why not, but if we do not, then that is ok too. As I said since I would like to think it would neigther help nor hinder us.
Atleast that is my opinion here.
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Post by fisheroo on Apr 15, 2010 16:29:16 GMT -5
I don't think I've played with fisheroo before the WWE game, unless he's another one of the sneaky people who change their user names. Nope, I am always the same name, I'm a chick, and this will be my 3.5th game.
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