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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 20, 2010 0:06:55 GMT -5
Total Lost, AKA DUCDUC, the Investigator (Town), has been killed during the Night.
Welcome to Day 2! Day Two will go until Friday night.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 20, 2010 0:51:56 GMT -5
Well that sucks.
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Post by luvbwfc on Apr 20, 2010 1:30:07 GMT -5
yeah. after such a good start too!
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 20, 2010 6:39:58 GMT -5
I'll take Reasons Why Pleonast Shouldn't Have Soft-Claimed so The Detective Could Have Hard Claimed for $500, Alex.
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Total Ullz
Administrator
You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
Posts: 2,029
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Post by Total Ullz on Apr 20, 2010 9:31:51 GMT -5
I'll take Reasons Why Pleonast Shouldn't Have Soft-Claimed so The Detective Could Have Hard Claimed for $500, Alex. Is a ghost allowed to laugh out loud?
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Post by special on Apr 20, 2010 9:36:53 GMT -5
Vote Pleonast [/color]
until he claims doctor or mason
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Post by zuma on Apr 20, 2010 9:42:15 GMT -5
Sorry for my absense yesterday. Got overwhelmed with work and taxes. I'll catch up today.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 20, 2010 10:51:24 GMT -5
Well that was an expensive trade. I'm looking over Total's posts to see where they slipped, if any. Potentially, One thing I'm wondering about is if "there is a mafia" indicates that there is only "mafia" and no Godfather... Can you confirm that there is no Godfather in this game? Since the investigator would be concerned about the accuracy of their results. And also, I guess it doesn't matter now - but I still find it very strange that no one asked what would happen in case the cop claimed and we lynched/forced the Doc to claim on Day 1 as well. Which shows some concern about two roles being revealed. To begin the Day, I'm going to vote storytellerfor So: Resolved: The Detective should claim, if we have one. which was effectively role fishing. I think that line of discussion partially compromised Total.
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 20, 2010 11:03:26 GMT -5
Well that was an expensive trade. I'm looking over Total's posts to see where they slipped, if any. Potentially, One thing I'm wondering about is if "there is a mafia" indicates that there is only "mafia" and no Godfather... Can you confirm that there is no Godfather in this game? Since the investigator would be concerned about the accuracy of their results. And also, Which shows some concern about two roles being revealed. To begin the Day, I'm going to vote storytellerfor So: Resolved: The Detective should claim, if we have one. which was effectively role fishing. I think that line of discussion partially compromised Total. It wasn't role fishing, it was a proven and tested strategy that works in these sorts of small simple games. That doesn't mean that story isn't scum, but if he is that isn't a good reason why.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 20, 2010 11:44:13 GMT -5
...which was effectively role fishing. I take strong exception to this remark. It was not "effectively role fishing." It was outright role-fishing, which I admit without concern or shame. Had Total claimed, and had you not decided to play your own game instead of being part of a team (assuming you are being truthful and not Scum), we would right now have a 100% reliable investigation result, a living investigator, and very likely a Night-killed vanilla. I make no apologies for this particular instance of role-fishing, and think it's on you to show where I erred. (And how silly, that "the line of discussion compromised Total." How?)
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 20, 2010 12:04:19 GMT -5
[/color] until he claims doctor or mason[/quote] So you'll be unvoting him if/when he does either? I admit that I tempted to put an OMGUS vote on Pleo, but I'd prefer it to have a bit more teeth. He obviously isn't the Cop. If he's the doc, I question his sanity in his soft claim. If he's a mason, his soft claim seems less nuts. Not that it necessarily makes sense, just that it is less nuts than a Doc or a Cop soft claiming on Day 1. At the same time, I can find no strategic gain of a soft Mason claim so early and with no pressure. The seemingly willful ignorance that Pleo is exhibiting about his potential role in Total's demise while looking for others to blame is where most of the OMGUS comes in, yet it does not seem to be the behavior of a scum trying to stay alive.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 20, 2010 12:39:44 GMT -5
...which was effectively role fishing. I take strong exception to this remark. It was not "effectively role fishing." It was outright role-fishing, which I admit without concern or shame. Why do you take strong exception when you agree that that is what you did? The error, which I pointed out YesterDay, was the fact that I had already put a claim on the table. You knew the advantage of an early claim by the investigator, since you described the reasoning very well. I knew as well. Any good player would know, so I assume the scum did too. That is why I made a soft claim--to put that wine in front of the scum. A vanilla townie storyteller should have figured that all out, but instead you bumped the wine. My thought was either you were making a subtle claim to be the investigator or your were scum looking for them. A vanilla town storyteller would not have disturbed the setting. Now I know the answer to that question. See the quotes in my previous post.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 20, 2010 13:07:55 GMT -5
Why do you take strong exception when you agree that that is what you did? It was an (apparently feeble and failed) attempt at a joke. Because, see, you said I was essentially role-fishing, and I played on the idea that it was the role-fishing part that offended me, when in fact it was the "essentially," since there was nothing "essential" about it, and... oh, forget it. Comedy is not my field, obviously. So - wait. Let me follow this as closely as I can. You agree that an early claim by the investigator would be advantageous. And yet you deliberately did something to sabotage such a play because... well, because what? Because you hoped to make the Scum think you were the investigator? Well, that would have been dumb of them. If you were the investigator there would have been no advantage to the half-claim versus a complete claim. And even if they, in the throes of severe head injury, believed that you were, they wouldn't have targeted you. They would have gone diving in the unclaimed pool, hoping to find a Doctor, and whatever tells they did or didn't see in Total Lost might have led them there anyway. There was no "setting," Pleo; there was no wine, except in your own head. Your plan was pointless, had no chance of succeeding, and did not, in fact, suceed. If you are not Scum, you deliberately and knowingly sabotaged a proven effective strategy for your team in order to play your own game, to absolutely no benefit. Total should have claimed in spite of your soft claim; it certainly wouldn't have been as helpful as if you hadn't claimed at all, but it still would have been of some value. For all I (and she) know, you are lying and are Scum. Or you're lying and are Vanilla. Or you're a Mason. And if you're a Doctor, well, you still could have protected Total last Night, and whatever feeble indecision you stirred among the Scum with your soft-claim would still have existed. Once again, I make no apologies for proposing and advocating what would have been the best play possible on Day One. ------ All that said, I am currently agnostic on the subject of whether Pleonast is a power role as he has claimed, Scum, or - I consider this unfortunately possible - a vanilla Townie being too clever by half. More reading necessary.
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Post by special on Apr 20, 2010 14:29:14 GMT -5
[/color] until he claims doctor or mason[/quote] So you'll be unvoting him if/when he does either? [/quote] If he claims doctor and isn't counter claimed, then yes. If He claims Mason then most likely I will, yes..though eventually there will be some back up to his claim either through a lynch-pressured claim or a death. So, for the time being, yes
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 20, 2010 14:55:43 GMT -5
sorry guys/gals i had to leave town for a family emergency unexpectedly. and, of course i forgot to take the computer so have had no access for a while.
i will try to get caught up today and hopefully be back in the running normally by tomorrow.
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Post by special on Apr 20, 2010 14:56:38 GMT -5
Pleo, I believe the time has come to claim.
I'd like other people to comment if they think he should as well. Also, see if I'm missing any points in my outline.
If you're the Doctor: 1. You can WiFoM the Scum if you'll be protecting yourself or not (if we get a mason claim later).
If you're a Mason: 1. The Doctor can WiFoM if they'll protect you or not.
If you're Vanilla: 1. We can lynch you because we won't belive you now
If you're Scum: 1. Any claim aside from Vanilla will probably result in your lynching since you'll be counter-claimed. 2. Oh, and, a Vanilla claim will also get you lynched.
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 20, 2010 16:28:18 GMT -5
Vote: shaggy
Explinations to come. It's the whole quantum thing I mentioned in the previous Day.
(I have the horrible creeping feeling that I am misusing quantum physics as an analogy point. Let me know if there is a more suitable metaphor that I can use instead if I am. I'm not a science guy. I was going to go with Schrodinger's cat, but firstly I can't spell it, secondly it is actually less accurate a way to describe the dilemma of a situation changing when you mention it. I don't think Shaggy is both scum and not scum, I just think that I will have a better idea of how right I am if I don't futz with the data first by laying out reasoning now. But the reasoning will come. I promise.)
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 20, 2010 16:29:09 GMT -5
Pleo, I believe the time has come to claim. I'd like other people to comment if they think he should as well. Also, see if I'm missing any points in my outline. If you're the Doctor: 1. You can WiFoM the Scum if you'll be protecting yourself or not (if we get a mason claim later). If you're a Mason: 1. The Doctor can WiFoM if they'll protect you or not. If you're Vanilla: 1. We can lynch you because we won't belive you now If you're Scum: 1. Any claim aside from Vanilla will probably result in your lynching since you'll be counter-claimed. 2. Oh, and, a Vanilla claim will also get you lynched. I'm fairly well on your side on this one Ed.
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Post by shaggy on Apr 20, 2010 16:43:49 GMT -5
Well seeing the start, I have to say that really blows.
I would say with regards to Pleo I find myself torn, cause part of me want to think a scum would not bus on day one, atleast not unless a fellow scum was sinking fast and hard. Which when you were in, sister was not. Hence I am wanting to lean towards now that sister is scum, that you are town. Seeing as you voted her yesterday.
However at the same time part of me wants to think you may not have planned for the 2 others to come in near the end of the day and switch the vote and lynch her. Since let's face it, a safe vote on a fellow scum or an "argument" early in the game is a classic scum play. Then if one turns up scum, it looks like the other had suspected the one and hence could not be scum themselves, or so the idea goes.
Really I dunno, and you know me the over thinker that I am. My mind is just going back and forth. The one thing I do know is I just can not get the logic behind the soft or half claim. I just do not understand it. So yeah I do agree I think the best thing now would be to just lay all the cards on the table and come clean with a claim.
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Post by shaggy on Apr 20, 2010 16:46:51 GMT -5
[/color] Explinations to come. It's the whole quantum thing I mentioned in the previous Day. (I have the horrible creeping feeling that I am misusing quantum physics as an analogy point. Let me know if there is a more suitable metaphor that I can use instead if I am. I'm not a science guy. I was going to go with Schrodinger's cat, but firstly I can't spell it, secondly it is actually less accurate a way to describe the dilemma of a situation changing when you mention it. I don't think Shaggy is both scum and not scum, I just think that I will have a better idea of how right I am if I don't futz with the data first by laying out reasoning now. But the reasoning will come. I promise.)[/quote] Sadly I am not a physics guy or a science guy what so ever, so that whole quantum rationale kinda gets lost on me but hey vote away if you want.
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 20, 2010 17:22:39 GMT -5
Sadly I am not a physics guy or a science guy what so ever, so that whole quantum rationale kinda gets lost on me but hey vote away if you want. I'm not either, which is really sort of the problem. I'm not sure if I am using it correctly. The idea, as I understand it, is that to observe something you change it simply by observing it. So, my theory goes, that sometimes in mafia you want to just watch stuff you know is going to happen as it happens, and not get too involved because getting overly involved can corrupt the data. There are times to get down and get messy, and there are times to not. Right now there isn't enough information for me to think that messy is going to help a lot, so I am choosing not. But I do plan to present a case of some sort in a bit after I have settled on my feelings about your own scumitude. So, part of the vote is a "well let's see what happens" vote, and part of it is a "I have seen some stuff that gives me pause, but most of it is a bit shaky and I think placing a vote will help me decide how shaky it is" but telling you that before you actually posted to the game sort of ruins anything I might have gotten out of the vote. As it was, the response of "vote away if you want" makes me say "I do want". So I am going to keep it there for now. More case to be presented as the Day unfolds and I see what else is happening.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Apr 20, 2010 19:01:58 GMT -5
That would be the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which factors in to quantum mechanics. You can know how fast something is moving, but the act of observing its speed prevents it from having a fixed location, or, conversely, you can observe a thing's location but that prevents you from knowing its speed.
I recommend Alice in Quantumland as a good basic text for those who want to know but aren't science people.
Also, a) I'm sorry I wasn't around, but meatspace has been kicking my ass and things don't look to be slowing down much, and b) go Scum
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 20, 2010 20:04:36 GMT -5
well woot and shoot in the same post.
still catching up but i am zuma, not that i see that it helps much.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 20, 2010 20:12:40 GMT -5
couple of quick observations.
pleo soft claim, as others have mentioned, also raise my eyebrows.
however, his vote on sis lends a little credibility to him not being scum.
however (again), the vote was so close (and he was in second by one vote) could have just been a bus since he would either have to have one offed or created a three way tie, and if he were scum there would still be the likelihood of a scum getting strung.
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Post by luvbwfc on Apr 21, 2010 1:22:13 GMT -5
One reason I can think of for the partial soft claim is a scum godfather wanting to get confirmed as town. I know this is only on eof many possibilities. I agree the time has come for a Pleo full claimvote Pleo
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 21, 2010 5:41:18 GMT -5
Pleonast - 2 (Special Ed, Luv) Storyteller - 1 (Pleonast) Shaggy - 1 (NAF)
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Post by fisheroo on Apr 21, 2010 6:20:09 GMT -5
By voting to lynch Pleo is the goal to lynch scum, or to punish poor strategy?
Can a loose cannon cause any more damage to town in the future of this game? Or has he blown his wad?
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Post by special on Apr 21, 2010 6:38:51 GMT -5
By voting to lynch Pleo is the goal to lynch scum, or to punish poor strategy? Can a loose cannon cause any more damage to town in the future of this game? Or has he blown his wad? The goal is to force a Scum to make a claim which can be countered. A Soft claim cannot be countered.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 21, 2010 9:04:02 GMT -5
By voting to lynch Pleo is the goal to lynch scum, or to punish poor strategy? Can a loose cannon cause any more damage to town in the future of this game? Or has he blown his wad? The goal is to force a Scum to make a claim which can be countered. A Soft claim cannot be countered. and while i agree with this generally i'll also play devil's advocate. since our detective is dead and the power roles were defined in the beginning isn't he by default either claiming doc or mason? now of course, that is a little problematic in and of itself. because if a doc were to counter claim he could just claim mason and out one or more of them. or if a mason piped up he could just claim doc and be safe until the real doc counter claimed. hmm, now that i type this it really is kind of sub optimal town strategy.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 21, 2010 10:51:56 GMT -5
Combined with Total's death, it is sub-optimal. I'm willing to consider that there may have been some decent possible outcomes so long as none of the power roles were exposed or dead. The doesn't change the pickle we're in now, however, and I do think he needs to claim.
Vote Pleo
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