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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 22, 2010 14:10:54 GMT -5
NETA: It's stupid doubly stupid in this case not only because the odds are in favor of him actually being a power role, but because a lynch on this particular claim will net us less information because the cases that build on it are built on tissue. Everyone who votes for Pleo can fall back and say "well shit, he shouldn't have soft claimed I guess. Good thing we had a lynch to burn. Sucks that we are out a Doc (or a mason, but I really don't think there are masons in this game)" and we learn almost nothing. Not nothing at all, but almost. Let me ask you a follow-up question. Given that you think that there are no Masons in this game - and I kind of think the same, by the way - how do you feel about Pleo's continued unwillingness to make a full claim? Kind of pointless, isn't it? I mean, why bother? Seems like the only likely claim is Doc, isn't it? So why this continued silence? Can you see any motivation for it if he is in fact the Doc? If he is a Mason (however unlikely you feel that is)? How about if he is Scum? Can you see a motivation for continued silence in that case? Unfortunately, the only pro-Town motivation I can see is if Pleo is in fact a Vanilla and decided to lie about it. I see that as distressingly possible, especially since he called it out as a possibility in his post about the whole thing. If he has done this, it sucks, because we are going to have to lynch him. There is simply no way around that. Anyway, so Day Four, huh? That seems startlingly arbitrary. Why Day Four? If we mislynch on Days Two and Three, we could be in a much more precarious position come Day Four. Why not force Pleo to claim for real, now, toDay, when if he's telling the truth the Scum are probably pretty confident he's the Doctor anyway?
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 22, 2010 14:25:46 GMT -5
I don't like lynching who I think is town, but enough is enough. It's too distracting to town, obviously. There are two problems with this post. 1) It's never* useful to the town to lynch a townie. It's always better to vote for someone you think is scum. *Absent some unusual cases of scum co-opting townie powers. 2) It's only distracting if you make it distracting. You don't have to talk about it. You can discuss other issues. In fact, there are arguments and votes against several other players. Why don't you contribute to those lines of discussion? Given that you think that there are no Masons in this game - and I kind of think the same, by the way - how do you feel about Pleo's continued unwillingness to make a full claim? If you truly believe there are no masons in this game, then my soft claim is the same as a protector claim. Why press for anything more? Or, to put it another way, who gains from the certainty of a hard claim, if one thinks there are likely no masons?
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 14:33:45 GMT -5
NETA: It's stupid doubly stupid in this case not only because the odds are in favor of him actually being a power role, but because a lynch on this particular claim will net us less information because the cases that build on it are built on tissue. Everyone who votes for Pleo can fall back and say "well shit, he shouldn't have soft claimed I guess. Good thing we had a lynch to burn. Sucks that we are out a Doc (or a mason, but I really don't think there are masons in this game)" and we learn almost nothing. Not nothing at all, but almost. Let me ask you a follow-up question. Given that you think that there are no Masons in this game - and I kind of think the same, by the way - how do you feel about Pleo's continued unwillingness to make a full claim? Kind of pointless, isn't it? I mean, why bother? Seems like the only likely claim is Doc, isn't it? So why this continued silence? Can you see any motivation for it if he is in fact the Doc? If he is a Mason (however unlikely you feel that is)? How about if he is Scum? Can you see a motivation for continued silence in that case? Unfortunately, the only pro-Town motivation I can see is if Pleo is in fact a Vanilla and decided to lie about it. I see that as distressingly possible, especially since he called it out as a possibility in his post about the whole thing. If he has done this, it sucks, because we are going to have to lynch him. There is simply no way around that. Anyway, so Day Four, huh? That seems startlingly arbitrary. Why Day Four? If we mislynch on Days Two and Three, we could be in a much more precarious position come Day Four. Why not force Pleo to claim for real, now, toDay, when if he's telling the truth the Scum are probably pretty confident he's the Doctor anyway? It's not that we disagree, it's that we are emphasizing different things I think. My outlook is long term. For now if Pleo wants to be Shroedingers Cat (see, I know I used that one right ) I say let him for now. I picked Day 4 because that is typically when the game moves from early to middle game. This game is smaller so it will probably happen on Day 3 instead, but we just bagged one scum so that gives us an extra Day, putting us back to Day 4. Before middle game we need to focus on generating information as a primary objective. So, while Pleo not claiming is, I think, hurtful to town, I also think that letting it play out a few Days actually nets us information both about Pleo and about the other players. The long range benefit is to let Pleo sit for a while and ask him or a real doctor, to claim. If he is not the doctor and a real doctor does claim we get him toDay as scum and we really don't need the doctor anymore at that point. If there are three scum let the doc self protect and go into three handed as confirmed. Random chance probably puts us at the win before then anyway. To answer your other question, I totally agree that Pleo's refusal to claim is pointless. If he claims mason, I say we lynch him out of hand. If another person claims doc, I say we lynch him out of hand. If he claims vanilla, I say we lynch him out of hand. If he waits more than a Day to full claim, I say we lynch him out of hand. In all of the above scenarios though, town has gained something before we lynched Pleo. Right now all we have is uncertainty. While that might be, and in fact probably is, pro scum it doesn't actually advance the town cause right at the moment the way that building cases against other would. Here's the thing. The hardest thing for scum to do is build a convincing case against a good townie. Forcing people to build cases against other people is, I think and have thought for a while, the best way to find scum. Right now lynching Pleo simply for the soft claim, gives scum an easy out and until he is counter claimed, I still think that it is more likely at this point to be town than scum. Town doing something bad for town? Yes. But still probably more likely town. Part of my rational has to do with it being Pleo who is doing this. I know no one likes to metagame, but it it was almost anyone else pulling this stunt I would be less willing to give them slack. I would say we lynch them on Day 3. I actually prefer the case against me, it tells me more about what is going on in the game then the case against Pleo.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 22, 2010 16:02:30 GMT -5
Story and NAF: You really think we were only given a Dick and a Doc and that's it? Are you basing your views that there are no masons on reverse-engineering based on JSP?
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 22, 2010 16:14:10 GMT -5
And I'm personally not voting for Pleo just because of the soft claim. It is for continuing not to explain himself or fully claim. There are few if any edges to pick at in this game that don't somehow involve his play or reactions to it. I wish it were different, but it isn't. I think it would help (and I think the rest of the Town will benefit as well) to provide as much public context as possible to what he's trying to do so that I too can decide how to interpret the reactions of others to his play. Pleo's case against Story does not seem to involve any insight gleaned from how Story has reacted to Pleo's play, so it doesn't even appear that Pleo is gaining any insights himself with this strategy of his. Unfortunately the edge that Pleo is picking in his case against Story isn't very compelling to me. I make suggestions as to what power roles might consider to do when I am Town. Scum may have just gotten damn lucky in killing Total. I just don't see a good case against Story there.
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Post by shaggy on Apr 22, 2010 16:41:02 GMT -5
Busier than hell at work at the moment, still reading along. Vote for Shaggy was because he spent a heck of a long time defending himself. I will vote for Pleo though, if it makes his stupid strategizing go away. Ok gotta pipe up here and say...Really? One single post that simply goes point by point through the reasons why I had been voted for and adressing each of them is a heck of alot of time? I could understand if it was a few posts or most of the day repeatedly bring it back up myself in defending, but 1 simple post? I supose this is where we have to agree to disagree, cause not sure I agree it was a heck of alot but ok. Joking I have to say would you have prefered just a simple "well your just so wrong " as a way to defend? LOL
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 16:47:04 GMT -5
NETA: It's stupid doubly stupid in this case not only because the odds are in favor of him actually being a power role, but because a lynch on this particular claim will net us less information because the cases that build on it are built on tissue. Everyone who votes for Pleo can fall back and say "well shit, he shouldn't have soft claimed I guess. Good thing we had a lynch to burn. Sucks that we are out a Doc (or a mason, but I really don't think there are masons in this game)" and we learn almost nothing. Not nothing at all, but almost. damn, you're adamant. i already said that i thought you were mason types and wouldn't vote for you. but you say no. so you are confusing the crud out of me.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 16:51:41 GMT -5
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 16:54:13 GMT -5
Story and NAF: You really think we were only given a Dick and a Doc and that's it? Are you basing your views that there are no masons on reverse-engineering based on JSP? I actually haven't looked at the game from a JSP perspective at all, mostly because I don't think Idle uses JSP to balance his games. I am going from a "this makes sense to me" perspective. Masons are more powerful the fewer people there are in a game. In a typical game 2 masons are worth about 4 vanilla town at the game start. In a smaller game like this I would say that they are work closer to 5 vanilla town maybe even six because more confirmed town then scum nearly always equals a win for town. Maybe actually always, I haven't done the math, but I probably should. A mass claim on Day 1 with 2 masons would have almost certainly broken the game in favor of town. Three masons would have absolutely broken the game in favor of town.
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 16:55:49 GMT -5
NETA: It's stupid doubly stupid in this case not only because the odds are in favor of him actually being a power role, but because a lynch on this particular claim will net us less information because the cases that build on it are built on tissue. Everyone who votes for Pleo can fall back and say "well shit, he shouldn't have soft claimed I guess. Good thing we had a lynch to burn. Sucks that we are out a Doc (or a mason, but I really don't think there are masons in this game)" and we learn almost nothing. Not nothing at all, but almost. damn, you're adamant. i already said that i thought you were mason types and wouldn't vote for you. but you say no. so you are confusing the crud out of me. I am. I believe what I believe and I believe it strongly. It's the only way to go in mafia and in life.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 17:07:24 GMT -5
damn, you're adamant. i already said that i thought you were mason types and wouldn't vote for you. but you say no. so you are confusing the crud out of me. I am. I believe what I believe and I believe it strongly. It's the only way to go in mafia and in life. well i have no problem with that. but maybe if you fucking screamed it would be more convincing.
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 17:08:53 GMT -5
I am. I believe what I believe and I believe it strongly. It's the only way to go in mafia and in life. well i have no problem with that. but maybe if you fucking screamed it would be more convincing. AAAAAHHHHHRRRGGGGG!!!Good enough?
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 17:09:24 GMT -5
Hmm, I seem to have broken this page. Sorry all.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 17:11:09 GMT -5
neta: or are you jesus?
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 17:12:00 GMT -5
Hmm, I seem to have broken this page. Sorry all. woot woot
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 17:14:35 GMT -5
i like NAF. he puts me in the 3rd percentile.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 22, 2010 17:18:39 GMT -5
Way to mess up my browser margins
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 17:19:25 GMT -5
i like NAF. he puts me in the 3rd percentile.
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 17:19:59 GMT -5
Way to mess up my browser margins (just trying to get us to the new page until this one can be fixed.)
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 17:23:50 GMT -5
don't worry NAF, i've done worse (better?)
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 22, 2010 17:26:50 GMT -5
Fixed
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 17:28:34 GMT -5
thmodankyouogmod
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 17:47:07 GMT -5
Well, now that that is over.
Anyone else have anything non silly to say?
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 18:00:32 GMT -5
ok, i'll encapsulate in my mind.
pleo claims to be something but won't tell us what he/it is
story admittedly fishes for the dick to claim
dick is dead
pleo continues to say that he is something
NAF kind of semi sort of backs that up
story is not sorry about fishing for dick
fisheroo makes a mellancamp from centerfield
shit happens
NAF breaks the board.
along the way ed has no one to talk to since meeko isn't around.
thats my sport's center hilights.
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 18:09:53 GMT -5
Ah ha, I see why you are confused about me peek. I am not backing up Pleo. I am saying that chances are better that he is some sort of power role then that he isn't based on his own past posting history as both town and scum, and that since I don't think there are masons and the cop is dead his claim might as well be a doctor claim anyway and you shouldn't kill the claimed doctor.
Is it possible I am wrong? You bet. I obviously don't think I am, but I could be. But we have time to deal with me being wrong later. Right now the risk of lynching him is losing a power role for little gain. Later there is more gain because we will have more info to work with.
(By the by, even having this conversation about the merrits of lynching Pleo is better than just lynching Pleo. If Pleo is lynched toDay the Day will still have ended better for us having had this discussion than it would have if we had all just piled on Pleo and lynched him. In short, talking in detail about every lynch is a good idea.)
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 18:15:58 GMT -5
s'why i haven't voted for him dontyaknow.
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 22, 2010 18:27:26 GMT -5
s'why i haven't voted for him dontyaknow. Good good.
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Post by special on Apr 22, 2010 20:18:11 GMT -5
Is this post important in terms of the game? That is, are you attempting to communicate something about the game with this clip?
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 20:27:08 GMT -5
(By the by, even having this conversation about the merrits of lynching Pleo is better than just lynching Pleo. If Pleo is lynched toDay the Day will still have ended better for us having had this discussion than it would have if we had all just piled on Pleo and lynched him. In short, talking in detail about every lynch is a good idea.) <snipped> but if noone else talks are we going to solve it by rock/paper/scissors or what? seriously i'd rather kill hemmingway or goosegoose at this point to be honest.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 22, 2010 20:31:46 GMT -5
Is this post important in terms of the game? That is, are you attempting to communicate something about the game with this clip? oh for fuck's sake. you are as sharp as a bowling ball. my word "adamant" the performer adam ant the song "stand and deliver" the implied message - put up or shut up. ok, well that's how my mind works anyways. no problem if you folks aren't on the same channel. do i need to call meeko?
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