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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 12, 2007 21:14:43 GMT -5
So, did this game change your view of mafia? I know I learned some things watchnig this game, and a few people have said similar things in the security moniter viewing room. The game analysis is my favorite part, so I hope you all will join me in talking about how this game played out.
Some things I am curious about:
How did you like the closed set up?
How did you like the majority to lynch rule?
What about the roles that Kat, JSexton, Sach and myself created?
Scum players what did you think about having power roles?
What else did you guys learn that you think we can use in the future to help make the games better?
The biggest thing I learned is that town has a really bad tendancy to lean heavily on metagaming, and in this game it came close to costing the town the game more then once.
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Post by Zeriel on Nov 12, 2007 21:39:43 GMT -5
The biggest thing that breaks these games very quickly, from where I sit, is that the scum keep making public mistakes.
As for metagaming, it's kind of an inevitable part of a closed setup game, but yeah.
I also note that, as usual, the town's gut instincts were correct on a lot of things--Cookies in particular.
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Nov 12, 2007 21:56:04 GMT -5
Oh, and a confession:
I was actually more suspicious of zeriel. Yattara had been quiet all game, and zeriel's role name of "Top Dog" gave me the WIFOM headache from hell. (I think just about the only thing that stopped me from saying: "Vote zeriel, for information" is my own two lynches over my rolename.)
But since my scumdar is apparently insane (i.e., gets "guilties" on innocents and vice versa), I went against my instincts, crossed my fingers, and voted for mhaye.
I should do that more often. ;D
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 12, 2007 22:16:57 GMT -5
I have significant doubts that the (imho) non-slip would've gotten much revisiting had Pygmy not pounced on it. I would've said the same thing had I been town, and everything I said in my defense (prior to my claim) was true, which is probably why it had the desired effect. It would have been a bad move to lynch anyone based solely on such a use of language, regardless of what my alignment ended up being.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Nov 12, 2007 23:02:27 GMT -5
I have significant doubts that the (imho) non-slip would've gotten much revisiting had Pygmy not pounced on it. I would've said the same thing had I been town, and everything I said in my defense (prior to my claim) was true, which is probably why it had the desired effect. It would have been a bad move to lynch anyone based solely on such a use of language, regardless of what my alignment ended up being. Similarly, I think I would have said the same thing as town, although I probably wouldn't have hounded it as hard. I'm not the only one that noticed it, though, just the first one that posted about it. I think, if you don't consider dotchan's "use of language", if you will, people lynched because of slips or non-slips in that regard have been about 4/5 scum, IIRC.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Nov 12, 2007 23:57:05 GMT -5
How did you like the closed set up? How did you like the majority to lynch rule? What about the roles that Kat, JSexton, Sach and myself created? Scum players what did you think about having power roles? What else did you guys learn that you think we can use in the future to help make the games better? Yeah, I'll take my fair share of the metagaming problems.... I did do that. It's one reason that in closed setups, I almost kinda favor a night 1 killing scenario, so that at the start of the Day, there is information for everyone on what's kinda going on. -I though am a HUGE fan of the Closed set-ups, only for the fact that it does make the game a bit more... interesting if you want it to become interesting. I would have loved to seen the Joss Whedon claim from scum. -Majority lynch, i know it's standard... but it's something that takes getting used to. I don't mind it, but I disliked the either Majority or no lynch. I'd prefer maybe a softer deadline: such as Majority to instant lynch, or just most vote getter by end of the day. But I know that Majority to lynch is the standard way to do these games, so I want to get used to it. So i'll just say, it's a personal issue, and one i'll get over. -I enjoyed the roles, giving scum the abilities was very nice, and making it so that the people who claimed random names, or scummy names were part of the town... VERY nice. I'll have to remember that sort of thing later on. And I loved the integration of Backups. When done right, they really add another layer to the game. A backup cop/doc is always a nice thing to have around. -Also the only other thing would be the issue of Recruits/Cults. I know I like closed setups, but this is one area where some knowledge might be helpful. Maybe just a hint or something at the start on whether to expect a cult/recruiting sort of role. Just to prepare the town.
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Post by Captain Klutz on Nov 13, 2007 4:57:34 GMT -5
Scum power roles were interesting. There were only 5 scum, but that was enough when we also had special abilities (especially the role blocker). Scum power roles are particularly powerful, due to the ability to co-ordinate them in secret.
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Post by CatInASuit on Nov 13, 2007 5:35:46 GMT -5
Quick Question for BlaM and storyteller.
Were you staging that argument and if so why?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 13, 2007 9:16:41 GMT -5
Quick Question for BlaM and storyteller. Were you staging that argument and if so why? AAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! No, we weren't. Until I die I will never understand how that argument seemed staged. I had one opinion, Blaster had a contrary opinion, and we're both a little bit stubborn and a little bit overdramatic. No elaborate schemes necessary.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Nov 20, 2007 13:43:31 GMT -5
I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread, but over in the LOLcat game ui mentioned that a friend of his was upset at the mod decision to rebalance the game when Idle returned. That guy thought it was a terrible decision.
I'm not calling out ui or his friend on this, but did anyone else see it that way?
I think the way the Doctor was handled at the start was possibly the biggest mod mistake (and I mean that in a "of the minor mistakes, this was the most noticeable" way, not a "this was a huge mistake" one). But I also think that the reaction to it, and the alterations to allow for him to come back, were exactly the right sort of good modding I'd expect.
Just to see if I pieced it together rightly:
The Doctor was not supposed to be able to protect the same person twice in a row.
The player (Idle) was not informed of this. (mod mistake)
The night the Doctor was targetted, he was protecting himself so he should have lived. But it was the second night in a row for himself, so he should have died.
He died, and then was reborn with weakened powers (mod correction).
I see the mods as the ones who control the game (something more like GM in an RPG, I suppose). I don't think of the setup, even in a closed or open game, as necessarily immutable. Obviously as little readjusting on-the-fly as possible should be done, but the whole point of having a moderated game is, to me, to have people who can shift things as needed when something goes wrong.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 20, 2007 13:55:18 GMT -5
Just to see if I pieced it together rightly: The Doctor was not supposed to be able to protect the same person twice in a row. The player (Idle) was not informed of this. (mod mistake) This is more or less correct. There is another aspect to it that I would rather not get into (if Idle or Kat want to bring it up that is their business) but for all intents and pursposes that is what went down. Brining Idle back, if and how, was one of the hardest decisions I have had to make in the course of playing/modding this game. It kept me from sleeping that night because I was very aware that our decsision would greatly effect how much fun people were having, and as a mod I think of it as my job to make sure everyone is having fun. Kat and I came up with a solution that we felt did the least harm to all parties involved. It hurt a little when Ui told me that was why I was killed in the LOLcats game.
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Post by CatInASuit on Nov 20, 2007 15:25:45 GMT -5
Just to see if I pieced it together rightly: The Doctor was not supposed to be able to protect the same person twice in a row. The player (Idle) was not informed of this. (mod mistake) This is more or less correct. There is another aspect to it that I would rather not get into (if Idle or Kat want to bring it up that is their business) but for all intents and pursposes that is what went down. Brining Idle back, if and how, was one of the hardest decisions I have had to make in the course of playing/modding this game. It kept me from sleeping that night because I was very aware that our decsision would greatly effect how much fun people were having, and as a mod I think of it as my job to make sure everyone is having fun. Kat and I came up with a solution that we felt did the least harm to all parties involved. It hurt a little when Ui told me that was why I was killed in the LOLcats game. Well, I guess the first question is how much effect to game balance did the change in Idle Thought's protect have on the game. Frankly, it doesn't matter, if the game started without that rule in place, so be it. As for how you handled his resurrection, I think it was handled as well as can be. The game was won and lost more from scum slip ups and an excellent role claim from Roosh than by the game being unbalanced. Just my 2p.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Nov 20, 2007 16:36:47 GMT -5
See, I view Mods as Gods. Mods have a right to DO ANYTHING they want to do in a game. Even if its fucking it up (then they're just called Bastards for it).
But in this case, it was a Mod Mistake, and a correction. I felt it was the right course of action.
And when I saw Ui had mentioned it as such, I was a little pissed off actually. I hate the idea of past games/grudges carrying over in games. I thinks childish and stupid, and it's one reason I actually respect Dotchan so much as a player. She starts every game fresh, and I try in my book to give her the same respect.
So hearing that someone was killed for an OUT of Game reason just REALLY REALLY irked me. I disliked it, and I disapproved of that more than the Mod decision. Part of the fun of these games for me is that each game is its own entity, and we as players can leave each game behind and start fresh. It's the one way to prevent these games from getting stale, and from "alliances' of people who play together from forming. It one reason I dislike most other forms of online gaming, because people have a difficult time doing that, and are invariably biased towards the people whom they know/ will have to play with more often. It makes it less fun then in the long run to join games when everyone sort of knows each other, and that mentality pervades.
So yeah, I think you did the right thing, NAF. And I was really disappointed in Ui for hearing that was a reason for voting. Even if he had said he voted for NAF because his name had a number in it, It would have been better than something that occurred because of an out of game event.
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