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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 26, 2010 11:22:59 GMT -5
So... wait... if they go for red toDay instead, then the Undead will definitely win unless FCoD is blocked by the Cabal, right? Because FCoD will kill somebody and a zombie will rise, and the end.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 26, 2010 11:31:43 GMT -5
If Captain Pinkies is on the ball, he will target the Vampire ToNight. At worst, it kills it; at best the Town will get a Vig to help bring down the Necro.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
As for the Wolves, this game they had the rotten luck of the Alpha getting lynched. Getting an extra kill for each lynched Wolf, plus having 7 Wolves total was very powerful.
But they also didn't choose their kills well. Why didn't they target claimed Townies? Either the target is protected, so no gain and no loss. Or the target dies and a Detective finds them. But they still get another kill before the Town can lynch them. With 7 Wolves, a 2:1 ratio is not bad.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
By the way, thanks for the feedback, story. I really do appreciate; it helps me with later iterations. I tend to balance games assuming optimal play with enough redundancy that the loss of a key role isn't game over. But that doesn't mean it works out that way.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 26, 2010 11:39:50 GMT -5
So... wait... if they go for red toDay instead, then the Undead will definitely win unless FCoD is blocked by the Cabal, right? Because FCoD will kill somebody and a zombie will rise, and the end. Let's see, end of Day is 5 Town + 2 Wolves + 2 Cabal = 9, versus 2 Undead + 4 Zombies = 6. Worst case for Night: 2 Town die plus Zombie is raised gives 7 vs 7, which is an Undead win. Best case: Vampire is blocked and set to be recruited, Necro is attacked by Wolf, Kat fails to animate, gives 9 vs 6, leading to 10 vs 4 if recruitment is accepted. From there, 3 Zombies potentially lost per cycle plus no more Zombies. So, choices do matter ToDay.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 26, 2010 11:41:31 GMT -5
By the way, sach is going to have a coronary over the Necromancer role. He will argue that the Town is (about to be) punished for good play (good play defined as outing and voting for the Necromancer).
It doesn't bother me, exactly. You know what I would do, and feel free to take it or leave it, if you decide to use a similar ability for the Necro in the future:
Create some kind of mechanism that it useful for only one thing - killing the Necromancer in this exact situation. Maybe a Town role with a one-shot secret power to kill the Necro, but it only works on the Necro and if it attempted on any other player, it is lost and the kill is gone forever. So the Necro is still shielded from random cross-kills in the early game, but if (s)he is outed, (s)he can't stall the game eternally.
Or make it so that (s)he can't raise a zombie on the Night after (s)he is saved by one. That'd help a bit.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 26, 2010 11:47:22 GMT -5
That is the intent of the Vicar role and secret power this game. They can block the Necro from creating a Zombie, once the Necro is discovered.
And the Town is not being punished. They are rewarded with the public destruction of a Zombie. Normally, there is no indication when a Zombie is destroyed (via killing the Necro), unless a Coroner is there. In this case, the Town will know that the numbers of the Undead are reduced.
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Post by Gir! on Aug 26, 2010 20:57:51 GMT -5
Note to self: In the future, Idle Thoughts must always be killed immediately. I was sure he was Town.
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Post by special on Aug 26, 2010 21:27:00 GMT -5
As for the Wolves, this game they had the rotten luck of the Alpha getting lynched. Getting an extra kill for each lynched Wolf, plus having 7 Wolves total was very powerful. Yes, if I'd stayed alive and been able to kill a couple of times, it might have been different. I never should have asked for that role. I've learned my lesson
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 27, 2010 10:13:28 GMT -5
Poor red. He's right about Idle and for the right reason. Info is a power and has been a power in a previous Conspiracy, as someone noted earlier in this game.
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Post by BillMc on Aug 27, 2010 10:59:04 GMT -5
Ahh..I see...should have kept on the don't believe Idle bandwagon; and Pinkies really should have spoken up. And I agree with pretty much everything Story has said -- I'll try and not make that a habit!
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Post by BillMc on Aug 27, 2010 11:27:28 GMT -5
Hmm, ya know.....Duvsie was right in voting Hoopy on day 1 -- get rid of the zombies :-)
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Post by BillMc on Aug 27, 2010 12:25:06 GMT -5
And I see nphase was still playing, and killed me, despite claiming to be away. That is really going to change how folk view "I'm going to be away" in future.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 27, 2010 13:47:03 GMT -5
And I see nphase was still playing, and killed me, despite claiming to be away. That is really going to change how folk view "I'm going to be away" in future. She wasn't playing when you were killed. Pleo allowed her teammates to proxy her power use, which is not the same thing at all. She dropped out of the Dope game at about the same time and for the same reason. If you look at the "Going to be away" thread, she had a sick relative.
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Post by Drain Bead on Aug 27, 2010 20:20:47 GMT -5
Is there any scenario, now that FCOD is killing Idle, in which Town does not win?
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Post by BillMc on Aug 28, 2010 7:11:16 GMT -5
And I see nphase was still playing, and killed me, despite claiming to be away. That is really going to change how folk view "I'm going to be away" in future. She wasn't playing when you were killed. Pleo allowed her teammates to proxy her power use, which is not the same thing at all. She dropped out of the Dope game at about the same time and for the same reason. If you look at the "Going to be away" thread, she had a sick relative. Yes, I saw I was proxy killed. But not to be pedantic, but the discussion in the game thread around whether we was secretly playing was on the 26th; and there are posts on the cabal board by nphase on the 24th and 25th.
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Post by BillMc on Aug 28, 2010 7:12:21 GMT -5
Is there any scenario, now that FCOD is killing Idle, in which Town does not win? Does a sacrificed zombie stay dead? ie, could Red raise Hoopy again -- and get stuck in a loop lynch red, raise zombie, lynch red, raise zombie....yawn
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Post by Inner Stickler on Aug 28, 2010 8:31:01 GMT -5
The color says that Hoopy was destroyed. That reads to me as there's nothing left to rez.
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Post by special on Aug 29, 2010 17:42:45 GMT -5
So, it makes sense for FCOD to join the Town. Then nphase and the 2 wolves are killed with Day 7 lynch, Night 7 Vig and Day 8 lynch.
game over, right?
Unless Idle's reveal throws everyone into a tizzy at the start of Day 8
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Post by special on Aug 29, 2010 19:51:45 GMT -5
oh, yeah, they have to keep killing Red. a lot.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 29, 2010 22:30:42 GMT -5
A destroyed Zombie is out of the game forever.
Town does not need to kill Cabal since there are two living Witches.
Presumably FlyingCow will accept recruitment. The Wolves can play spoiler (by killing a Witch), so we'll need to play it out unless they concede in favor of the Town. Cabal has lost unless the Wolves favor them and get lucky taking out a Witch.
Worst case, I'll have shortened Days and Nights.
Edited to add: the optimal play for Town is to keep lynch the Necro, then the new Vig takes out a Wolf and then lynch the last Wolf. I don't think the Town will be at lynch Undead or lose, so removing the last threat to the Witches is more important. By Vig'ing and then lynching the last Wolves, they will not have the chance to payback the Town's "betrayal". Then I can call it favor of the Town.
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Post by special on Aug 29, 2010 22:34:00 GMT -5
I see, but once Idle flips Cabal, Town might get paranoid about recruitment.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 29, 2010 22:36:10 GMT -5
I see, but once Idle flips Cabal, Town might get paranoid about recruitment. Oh yeah. That will make it less likely the Town follows the optimal path. Fun! :evil:
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Post by BillMc on Aug 30, 2010 3:16:56 GMT -5
Fun fun fun.
Pleo - had Cap blessed both Pollux and FCOD, would you have allowed both to join the town and the town to have two vigs?
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Post by BillMc on Aug 30, 2010 7:50:04 GMT -5
Hold the phone - looks like Duvsie has changed her mind about the Wolves killing Red; she wants the Wolves to kill NPhase now.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 30, 2010 9:28:04 GMT -5
That rather radically changes the situation. Cabal will no longer exist. Skeezix will be blocked by the Vicar every Night (and the Wolves won't bother Pinkies) in the meanwhile, so FCoD and Town will begin the long and slogging process of picking off zombies. They'll lynch and/or Night kill a Wolf often enough to ensure that the Wolves won't win - given all the reveals, the situation is fairly transparent.
Barring a Town that becomes wildly scared of recruitment - and I don't think that's likely, since multiple recruitment will probably be regarded as unlikely - this game is going to the Town.
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Post by BillMc on Aug 30, 2010 10:18:51 GMT -5
That rather radically changes the situation. Cabal will no longer exist. Skeezix will be blocked by the Vicar every Night (and the Wolves won't bother Pinkies) in the meanwhile, so FCoD and Town will begin the long and slogging process of picking off zombies. They'll lynch and/or Night kill a Wolf often enough to ensure that the Wolves won't win - given all the reveals, the situation is fairly transparent. Barring a Town that becomes wildly scared of recruitment - and I don't think that's likely, since multiple recruitment will probably be regarded as unlikely - this game is going to the Town. So its 5-2-6 Town, Wolves, Undead after Duvsie's change D7: Town needs to lynch Red: 5-2-5; and assuming FCOD switches sides it will then be 6-2-4; tho if FCOD doesn't switch, an undead win is still possible. N7: Cap blocks Red; FCOD kills Red|Wolf: Wolves kill Cap|Witch|FCoD With Cap dead, FCOD would have to kill Red each night to stop an Undead win; and Town would need to lynch Red each day, leaving the wolves free to pick off Town - Witch then FCOD - it would take a lot of luck, but a wolf win is still possible. Indeed, if there were 3 wolves alive just now, it would be in favour of the wolves. If Cap doesn't reveal that he blessed FCOD, then they may end up lynching FCOD anyway LOL!
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 30, 2010 11:25:05 GMT -5
Pleo - had Cap blessed both Pollux and FCOD, would you have allowed both to join the town and the town to have two vigs? Yes. Hold the phone - looks like Duvsie has changed her mind about the Wolves killing Red; she wants the Wolves to kill NPhase now. Argh, that serves me right for figuring out the results so early. It's a good play by the Wolves, though. They don't need to kill Undead, so let the Town do it. The Cabal is going to feel chumpy for not blocking a killer.
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Post by BillMc on Aug 30, 2010 13:01:19 GMT -5
Pleo - had Cap blessed both Pollux and FCOD, would you have allowed both to join the town and the town to have two vigs? Yes Oh that would have been fun...not :-)
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Post by BillMc on Aug 30, 2010 14:31:43 GMT -5
[/color] Seriously, if he doesn't die this time. I'm out.[/quote] me thinks Sach is going to be well pissed off.
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 30, 2010 14:50:20 GMT -5
[/color] Seriously, if he doesn't die this time. I'm out.[/quote] me thinks Sach is going to be well pissed off.[/quote] Hah, I was just going to post the same observation. Little does sach know that the Town basically has it wrapped up. With FlyingCow accepting recruitment and the Cabal completely dead, is there any reason not to call the game in favor of the Town at Dusk? Hmm. Yes, there is reason. The Wolves can still seriously hurt Town by killing the Vig or the Vicar. And we need to see if the Vig targets the Necro or a Wolf. Got to play it out, choices still matter.
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Post by BillMc on Aug 30, 2010 16:32:11 GMT -5
With FlyingCow accepting recruitment and the Cabal completely dead, is there any reason not to call the game in favor of the Town at Dusk? Hmm. Yes, there is reason. The Wolves can still seriously hurt Town by killing the Vig or the Vicar. And we need to see if the Vig targets the Necro or a Wolf. Got to play it out, choices still matter. There are definitely certain permutations of play that result in town losing D7: Red is lynched 5-2-5; FCOD changes sides 6-2-4 So the Witches have to protect Cap or FCOD, probably Cap N7: Cap blocks Red; FCOD kills Red; Wolves kill Cap 5-2-4 D8: Town lynches Red: 5-2-3 N8: Red raises Zombie; FCoD kills Zombie; Wolf kills Witch: 4-2-3 D9: Town has to lynch Red: 4-2-2 N9: Red raises Zombie; FCod kills zombie; Wolf kills FCod: 3-2-2 D10: Town lynches Red: 3-2-1 N10: Red raises Zombie: 3-2-2; Wolf kills town; 2-2-2 D11: Town lynches Red: 2-2-1 N11: Red raises Zombie 2-2-2; wolf kills town 1-2-2 D12: town lyches Red: 1-2-1 N12: red raises zombie 1-2-2; wolk kills red 1-2-1 D13: if they lynch red, wolves win, if they lynch a wolf, red wins D8: Town lynches wolf: 5-1-3 N8: Red raises zombie; fcod kills zombie, wolf kills witch 4-1-3 D9: Town has to lynch Red: 4-1-2 N9: Red raises Zombie; FCod kills zombie; Wolf kills FCod: 3-1-2 D10: Town lynches Red: 3-1-1 N10: Red raises Zombie: 3-1-2; Wolf kills town; 2-1-2 D11: Town lynches Red: 2-1-1 N11: Red raises Zombie 2-1-2; wolf kills red 2-1-1 D12: town lyches Red: 2-1-0 (if they lynch the wolf, red wins at night) N12: wolf kills town, wolves win N7: Cap blocks Red; FCOD kills Red; Wolves kill FCOD 5-2-4 N7: Cap blocks Red; FCOD kills Wolf; Wolves kill Cap 5-2-4 N7: Cap blocks Red; FCOD kills Wolf; Wolves kill FCOD 5-2-4
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