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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 14:04:27 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Jul 20, 2010 14:04:27 GMT -5
And, so the quiet village life of Cecilton-on-the-Hill, was marred by the violent murder of Mayor Hoopy Frood. Although the townsfolk mourned, their grief turned to horror when the next night, their former mayor clawed his way out of the grave. There was Undead on the loose! What to do?
Hoopy Frood has become a Zombie.
Day One has begun and will end on Tuesday July 27 at 12 noon PT (3pm ET).
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 14:13:09 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jul 20, 2010 14:13:09 GMT -5
BRRRAAAAAIIIINNNNNNSSSSS!!!!!!!
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 14:27:47 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Jul 20, 2010 14:27:47 GMT -5
/boggle
I just and what?
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 14:29:12 GMT -5
Post by BillMc on Jul 20, 2010 14:29:12 GMT -5
Nothing like a Zombie to start the day!
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 14:41:11 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jul 20, 2010 14:41:11 GMT -5
*blinks*
Um, does Zombie Frood count as an actual zombie and thus part of the Undead's win condition?
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 14:59:15 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jul 20, 2010 14:59:15 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, all three previous versions of Conspiracy have been won by Town. I expect the modifications to favor the other factions and make the game more difficult for Town. The opening zombie supports this thesis since previously, the first zombie could not be created until after Night Two. Furthermore, the previous version attempted to mitigate Vampire on Necromancer killing by informing each Vampire who one of the Necromancers were. Despite this, there was still Vampire violence on Necromancers (I think). Undead is very swingy in this regard. They have the potential to be the greatest threat and the capacity to nullify themselves. I'm hoping that the bonus zombie is all Pleonast did to beef up the undead, because if Vampires can't accidentally take out a Necromancer, then Undead are in the best position to win. I believe Undead can meet their win condition the fastest, but they can also lose the capacity to win the fastest as well.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 15:17:18 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Jul 20, 2010 15:17:18 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, all three previous versions of Conspiracy have been won by Town. I expect the modifications to favor the other factions and make the game more difficult for Town. The opening zombie supports this thesis since previously, the first zombie could not be created until after Night Two. Furthermore, the previous version attempted to mitigate Vampire on Necromancer killing by informing each Vampire who one of the Necromancers were. Despite this, there was still Vampire violence on Necromancers (I think). Undead is very swingy in this regard. They have the potential to be the greatest threat and the capacity to nullify themselves. I'm hoping that the bonus zombie is all Pleonast did to beef up the undead, because if Vampires can't accidentally take out a Necromancer, then Undead are in the best position to win. I believe Undead can meet their win condition the fastest, but they can also lose the capacity to win the fastest as well. Last time, each Vampire was told the identify of one of the Necromancers, not both. I agree that it seems like the initial zombie is intended to boost the Undead a little bit, since last time they lost despite my brilliant play ;D --FCOD
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 15:28:55 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jul 20, 2010 15:28:55 GMT -5
So I was poking at the archives to see what the most recent iteration looks like. I expect it to be different, but for things like number of Wolves, Vampires, Necromancers and Cabal, it should give a rough idea: 5 Wolves 1 Alpha Wolf 3 Werewolves 1 Omega Wolf
4 Undead 2 Vampire 2 Necromancers
4 Cabal 4 Cabalists
The post immediately following the setup for C3 reveals the player preferences for C3: (I've bolded the players who are participating in C4.)
Player role/faction requests
Sister Coyote: 1) Warlock 2) Witchdoctor 3) Omega 4) Town. Merestil Haye: 1) Cabalist 2) Vampire 3) Coroner 4) Vigilante. Nanook: 1) Vig 2) Witch 3) Vampire 4) Mason. Death by Irony: 1) Town. julie: 1) Coroner 2) Vampire 3) Witchdoctor 4) Warlock. peekercpa: 1) Witch, Wolves or Cabal. BillMc: 1) Witch 2) Witchdoctor 3) Vig 4) Omega. storyteller: 1) Undead 2) Cabal or Wolves. FCoD: 1) Vampire 2) Necromancer. pedescribe: 1) choose last. NAF: 1) Cabal 2) Wolf 3) Warlock 4) Witch 5) Detective 6) not Vampire. Kat: 1) Vampire 2) Seer 3) Werewolf 4) Omega Wolf 5) Detective 6) Freemason 7) Warlock 8) Vicar 9) Necromancer. Squid: 1) Wolves or Cabal 2) Town. Meeko: 1) Omega Wolf 2) Cabalist. Parzival: 1) Not Vampire. CatInASuit: 1) Vigilante. Special Ed: 1) Wolves 2) Cabal.
It is possible that these preferences were situationally dependent (i.e., recently played Town so want to play scum and vice versa). It is also possible that these players chose based on what they consider fun/compatible with their personality. This limited information shows three current players were in C3 and exclusively asked for scum roles in C3. I would like to kill one of these players Today.
storyteller FlyingCowofDoom Special Ed
This approach is not what I would classify as "fair," but the information is public. Certainly no worse than a random vote at this point. I would like to hear commentary from Sister Coyote, MHaye, Nanook, BillMc and Kat. Do you feel that this is a fair assessment? Do your role preferences for C4 differ significantly from your C3 choices? Why or Why not?
Side Note: I don't think the choices should have been made public, or it should have been a one shot deal. If this works, I'm fairly certain that the practice of allowing requests will end (and should end). Even if it doesn't work, I still question the practice.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 15:38:23 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Jul 20, 2010 15:38:23 GMT -5
Heh. I have to say, I don't like your plan. I suppose it isn't worse than a random lynch, but in a game with no-vanillas killing someone because of they chose scum in a previous game seems kinda...wrong.
And I'm not just saying that because I'm in the group of people you want to kill.
That being said, I agree that this information should not be released again if the "choose your own role" mechanism is gonna be re-used.
--FCOD
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 17:07:09 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jul 20, 2010 17:07:09 GMT -5
*blinks* Um, does Zombie Frood count as an actual zombie and thus part of the Undead's win condition? *Moans a completely untillegible answer to the question.* Follows it up with: BRRRAAAAAIIIINNNNNNSSSSS!!!!!!!
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 17:11:43 GMT -5
Post by Renata on Jul 20, 2010 17:11:43 GMT -5
I'll wager that's a yes. Peachy.
sachertorte, I kinda hate your plan. I don't even care if it's correct or not, I just hate it. I wish you hadn't brought it up; I'd rather not have that in my mind at all.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 17:29:44 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Jul 20, 2010 17:29:44 GMT -5
This approach is not what I would classify as "fair," but the information is public. Certainly no worse than a random vote at this point. I would like to hear commentary from Sister Coyote, MHaye, Nanook, BillMc and Kat. Do you feel that this is a fair assessment? Do your role preferences for C4 differ significantly from your C3 choices? Why or Why not? You know, sacher, this is one of the most fascinating examples of role-fishing I've ever seen. With detailed backup yet. BTW, all, my usual day 1 stuff: Anyone caught in a lie of commission should probably be lynched, although the dynamic for lying is different in Conspiracy than in straightforward mafia, so that needs to be taken into account. Carry no grudges. (Well, kay, this one's MHaye's and not mine, but you know.)
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 17:30:58 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jul 20, 2010 17:30:58 GMT -5
To be honest, I'm not 100% keen on it either. But I saw it, and I couldn't unsee it.
For what it's worth, I did PM Pleonast with my thoughts to at least give the opportunity for a "Hey, let's not go there."
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 17:45:42 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 20, 2010 17:45:42 GMT -5
Okay, I have extra information that I think everyone should know. I was told this, in my PM:
So there you go. Seven wolves, total. That's a lot.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 18:46:17 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on Jul 20, 2010 18:46:17 GMT -5
I had something of a similar thought actually. I remembered that a lot of the more experienced players requested scum type roles. Considering it a challenge maybe? I didn't go so far as you did though, in that I didn't actually go back and look at who requested what, nor did I consider restricting myself to those players. I think it's likely better than random, but not necessarily the best way to go Today.
You certainly love the Day 1 bombshells don't you Idle? If you are telling the truth, we certainly seem to have a tough row to hoe. 7 wolves? Eesh. 2 Cabal, on the face of it, seems like they're screwed(again), but I can't imagine Pleo not at least attempting to balance it. Perhaps, unlike in previous Conspriacies where they got a one shot kill, in this one they get a one shot recruitment? He's always left the possibilty of recruitment open in the past.
Relatedly, is there any indication given as to why you received this information? Part of the big thing with past Conspiracies is that the exact make up was hidden, making things more difficult for the various factions.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 19:10:20 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jul 20, 2010 19:10:20 GMT -5
It is possible that these preferences were situationally dependent (i.e., recently played Town so want to play scum and vice versa). It is also possible that these players chose based on what they consider fun/compatible with their personality. This limited information shows three current players were in C3 and exclusively asked for scum roles in C3. I would like to kill one of these players Today. storyteller FlyingCowofDoom Special Ed This approach is not what I would classify as "fair," but the information is public. Certainly no worse than a random vote at this point. I would like to hear commentary from Sister Coyote, MHaye, Nanook, BillMc and Kat. Do you feel that this is a fair assessment? Do your role preferences for C4 differ significantly from your C3 choices? Why or Why not? Well, in my case, my Role Preference List was made by going through the list of roles and going "That one looks like a cool role. This one looks like a cool role. Ooo, so does that one." I looked at the role description and abilities exclusively, without taking alignment into account. I used the same approach this time, and ended up with a completely different list so, in my case, it was situationally dependent, but not for alignment reasons. I checked the Wiki pages of your Three Possibilities, and note that Special Ed had been Town for the 5 previous game on this board. I don't recall which other-board games were running concurrently. There is a possibility that he was just tired of playing Town. FCOD had had 7 straight losses as Town and Scum, and both his choices Undead (which are non-Town and not traditional Scum). storyteller doesn't have a Wiki page, but I believe he was killed by his own team in C3.... I'd say that your approach would probably be no more useless than random voting or LtL, but obviously, there are possible reasons for each person that can logically explain either (for Ed and FCOD) why they might have leaned towards their choices in that game or (for story) why he might have changed his preference for this game, so it's not necessarily all that useful (in regards to it successfully finding scum either. I don't think that we should restrict the options to just those 3 players; however, if we aren't able to ferret out any other possibilities, it's no worse than a random lynch.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 19:10:44 GMT -5
Post by Red Skeezix on Jul 20, 2010 19:10:44 GMT -5
Interesting, Idle. Although (presuming you are being truthful), it's hard to judge whether or not exposing that info was necessarily prudent at this point, i suppose time will tell.
Sach, that is an interesting plan you've made there. Interesting because not only are you suggesting that we lynch for meta reasons, but that we lynch to send a message to the moderator, as opposed to ya know, making any attempt to progress towards winning this game, or at the very least providing a framework which will hint at motives of other players, so that we can be better informed toMorrow.
(Not directed at sach, in particular, but an observation) Also, the "It's better than random/nothing" meme about day one voting should probably die. It's an obvious statement, that truly says nothing, and sounds a lot like "I don't know who to vote for". If you are voting for someone and "it's better than random" is your only (relative) justfication, then you aren't trying hard enough or there haven't been any non fluff posts all day. Plus if you're town you've just opened the door for an opportunistic and easily justified vote from a scum player.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 20:01:19 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 20, 2010 20:01:19 GMT -5
YOMV, but IMO, knowing what's what from the start is always helpful. Of course, you can always question my being honest, but before you do that, look over the list and see if, whatever you are, is on it. Obviously the wolves, undead, and cabalists will/might lie and say it's wrong, but I assure you, it's not. Not unless the mod lied to me.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 20:26:07 GMT -5
Post by metallicsquink on Jul 20, 2010 20:26:07 GMT -5
This approach is not what I would classify as "fair," but the information is public. Certainly no worse than a random vote at this point. I would like to hear commentary from Sister Coyote, MHaye, Nanook, BillMc and Kat. Do you feel that this is a fair assessment? Do your role preferences for C4 differ significantly from your C3 choices? Why or Why not? You know, sacher, this is one of the most fascinating examples of role-fishing I've ever seen. With detailed backup yet. BTW, all, my usual day 1 stuff: Anyone caught in a lie of commission should probably be lynched, although the dynamic for lying is different in Conspiracy than in straightforward mafia, so that needs to be taken into account. Carry no grudges. (Well, kay, this one's MHaye's and not mine, but you know.) This is my first conspiracy game so I don't know why "the dynamic for lying is different". Can you please elaborate?
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 21:00:58 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Jul 20, 2010 21:00:58 GMT -5
storyteller doesn't have a Wiki page, but I believe he was killed by his own team in C3.... Yup. Got Necromancer, got fragged by a Vampire very, very quickly. sach, in spite of the fact that your analysis points in part at me, it sort of makes sense. It actually doesn't apply to me at all in this case, as I did not submit a list of roles at all, but there's obviously no way to prove that. If Idle is to be believed, then the Cabal is very likely to be an extremely dangerous enemy in spite of their small numbers. But if Idle is to be believed, then we have a more relevant conclusion to draw: Pleonast has stated explicitly in the Rules that: Pleo is very, very big on saying what he means and meaning what he says. Idle's information is not of the open setup information we have received. According to the moderator, this means that if Idle is truthful, he is the possessor of his faction's secret power. There are multiple conclusions to be drawn from this: 1. If a player claims to have the Town secret power, then dies and does, we can guess that Idle is non-Town. 2. Conversely, if Idle dies and is Town, we can assume that any other player claiming to have the Town secret power is lying. 3. I am not sure what I think of Idle's revelation. Will post more tomorrow.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 21:06:12 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Jul 20, 2010 21:06:12 GMT -5
Because there are four factions, each with a unique wincon, and if I'm remembering correctly somebody used lying to good effect in CIII. Also -- what's the lie? Someone could claim to be a member of the Cabal, but really be a Wolf; if someone claims to be Town and is lying, they could be any of the other factions. Or, as happened at the end of CIII, there could be some confusion about who was able to do what to whom that would result in accusations of lying flying around when all parties were telling the truth. I hope you enjoy. CIII was my first Conspiracy game, and it was a lot of fun. Fluff warning: Also -- Hoopy having become a Zombie makes his tag line ("I once bit your sister") even funnier, IMO
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 21:06:16 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jul 20, 2010 21:06:16 GMT -5
storyteller doesn't have a Wiki page, but I believe he was killed by his own team in C3.... Yup. Got Necromancer, got fragged by a Vampire very, very quickly. Hey, I said I was sorry!
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 21:42:46 GMT -5
Post by eureka on Jul 20, 2010 21:42:46 GMT -5
My thoughts:
I'm OK with voting for someone on the grounds that they wanted to be Scum in a previous iteration of the game, although not keen on it both because what they wanted then may not be what they wanted now and because as someone with no history in this game, I'm a little leery of what message someone may decide my lack of history means.
I'm much less ok with voting for someone in an effort to send a message to the moderator--if you don't like the way the moderator is setting up the game, just don't play it (don't sign up for it).
I'm baffled as to why Idle Thoughts would have been given the extra information he claims he's been given. And I don't think it should be trusted.
It makes no sense to me that the Cabal has only two members, unless Pleonast is trying to protect the Cabal from crosskills by reducing their numbers in advance.
Seven werewolves is not an obviously excessive number, given the frequency with which werewolves end up dead.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 22:34:32 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 20, 2010 22:34:32 GMT -5
As I said, if the info is wrong, then that means the mod lied to me...and, conversely, that the mod (Pleonast) is a liar. Since I don't believe that or think that's the case, I believe in the info he gave me.
And no, Storyteller, I have no secret power as far as I know, at least I wasn't told I had one. I was just told this extra information along with my role.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 22:41:03 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 20, 2010 22:41:03 GMT -5
Oh, and I think that, mostly, the people who will show disbelief that the info I was given being true will be the Wolves, as they'll be pissed and sore that someone (me) knows how many there are, so they'll want to try to spawn and spread disbelief....I think their group is the most hurt by the info being revealed.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 23:09:04 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on Jul 20, 2010 23:09:04 GMT -5
Wait, how does Idle having this info make him the town's power possessor? Squink, I've never played conspiracy before either but I skimmed the C3 game and I think it was storyteller who made a comment about how in this game town has to hide their towniness more than in a regular game because of the fact that there are 3 other nontown factions.
I'm a little disappointed by Idle's list if true because I think it takes some of the fun out of the game if we know what roles to expect. Sach's plan is a little unfair, I think, in that it seems wrong to me to use information gathered before a game begins, if that makes sense. The flip side here is that he could be completely offbase and we lynch three townies for no reason other than what they felt like last year.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 23:20:35 GMT -5
Post by Red Skeezix on Jul 20, 2010 23:20:35 GMT -5
If Idle is to be believed, then the Cabal is very likely to be an extremely dangerous enemy in spite of their small numbers. But if Idle is to be believed, then we have a more relevant conclusion to draw: Pleonast has stated explicitly in the Rules that: Pleo is very, very big on saying what he means and meaning what he says. Idle's information is not of the open setup information we have received. According to the moderator, this means that if Idle is truthful, he is the possessor of his faction's secret power. There are multiple conclusions to be drawn from this: 1. If a player claims to have the Town secret power, then dies and does, we can guess that Idle is non-Town. 2. Conversely, if Idle dies and is Town, we can assume that any other player claiming to have the Town secret power is lying. 3. I am not sure what I think of Idle's revelation. Will post more tomorrow. Huh, you quoted pleonast, but you didn't bother to keep the full quote, from the rules thread, third paragraph: Note the second sentence, it would seem to invalidate points 1 & 2 that you've just made.
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Day One
Jul 20, 2010 23:28:47 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 20, 2010 23:28:47 GMT -5
The follwoing are my thoughts so far on reading the Day @ Idle I'm not sure that I disbelieve you as I find the information difficult to believe, if that makes sense. As it stands, it means we're currently at (25 players): 3 Undead plus 1 Zombie 7 wolves 2 Cabal 13 Town Compared to (and correct me if I make a mistake, I'm going off notes in a couple of games I didn't play in) C3 (25 players) 4 Undead 5 Wolves 4 Cabal 12 Town C2 (31 players) 3 Undead 7 Wolves 5 Cabalists 16 Town C1 (22 Players) 2 Undead 5 Wolves 3 Cabalists 12 Town OK, so 7 Wolves does seem a little overpowered, but maybe the secret powers can compensate for it. I do realize Wolves did badly in C3, but that could in large part be attributed to luck and my bad play. Also, doesn't Town usually win these? and now there's more Town than before? And 3 detectives? Is that usual? ~~~~~~~~~~ on a couple of different notes: sachertorte, I don't remember why I asked for the roles I did in the last game. @ Kat, I do find it odd that your comment on sachertorte's idea is to defend the 3 of us he identified. it causes me concern that maybe he's identified either a fellow Wolf, a fellow Undead, a fellow Cabalist, a fellow freemason, or a fellow Witch (did I get them all?) @ Eureka 2 questions. 1. While I'll agree for the moment that fewer members does decrease the likelihood of crosskills, isn't the additional team member (and subsequent reduction in the number of enemies) more than offset that? In other words, isn't it better to start with more members no matter what? 2. You don't think 7 Wolves is excessive? In a straight Scum game, isn't 7 Scum in a 25 player game a little high? Now make it 7 Scum vs just 13 Town assuming the other sides will.
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Day One
Jul 21, 2010 1:03:49 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 21, 2010 1:03:49 GMT -5
Just ask yourself this, Ed...is what you are on the list I posted? If so, that's one. Certainly doesn't DISprove it.
I actually want someone to say they're a role not on my posted list...because then we'd (well, I'd) know who was a liar.
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Day One
Jul 21, 2010 3:48:54 GMT -5
Post by septimus on Jul 21, 2010 3:48:54 GMT -5
(My first thoughts are probably worth little, but I don't know how to post fluff, and do want to avoid a Lurking charge!)
My guess is that Idle Thoughts did get the PM (or somehow deduced the probable composition from some other source), but made one or two "invisible" changes for his own benefit. For example the correct list might be his posted list with one Town role changed to Cabalist.
@ Nanook, "... being held in Nanook's Dungeon of Pleasure and Pain." This has my curiosity aroused. Is there a PG-rated synopsis?
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