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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 3, 2007 18:59:08 GMT -5
I don't know if Roosh just handed WTF a gift or not. He can take Roosh out now, but has Roosh's roleclaim narrowed the pool to such a degree that it is impossible for WTF to win?
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Post by Captain Klutz on Nov 3, 2007 19:36:18 GMT -5
I'd say it's game over. Wtf is now 1 of only 3 unknowns, which is not enough to hide in.
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Post by Captain Klutz on Nov 3, 2007 22:08:01 GMT -5
Trying to find a way for scum to win. It's not easy, but it is barely possible.
If Roosh gets another investigation then the pool of unknowns is narrowed even further. And even if he is lynched, that only confirms his claim, which clears 2 other players.
Let's take a bunch of best cases:
Roosh is lynched, then (say) dotchan is Nightkilled.
That leaves:
Confirmed
hockey monkey idle thoughts nesta
very likely town hal briston
unknown wtf zeriel catinasuit
Then (say) lynch catinasuit and Nightkill idle, leaves hockey monkey nesta hal briston wtf zeriel
Then lynch zeriel. This leaves hockey monkey nesta hal briston wtf
Wtf is the only real lynch target for the next Day. Interestingly, if there were more unknowns then it would be better for wtf to not Nightkill anybody, but instead go into the Day with 4 people, as that provides more cover. However, with 2 confirmed, best would be to Nightkill hockey and hope that nesta is sufficiently suspicious of hal to vote for him.
So wtf can still win if an awful lot of things happen just right.
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Post by dnooman on Nov 4, 2007 1:48:34 GMT -5
WTF was a borderline lurker. Yes, it's a subjective issue, but games have rules and accepted standards.
Scum that try to fly that low under the radar, are just being opportunistic IMO. I'm not saying it isn't fair, just that it isn't very sporting. There was quite a bit of meta-gaming going on with WTF as well.
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Post by mtgman on Nov 4, 2007 3:01:45 GMT -5
Backup cops are such a beating to be scum against. I feel bad for WTF, even though I think he/she's certainly played the lurker role to the hilt.
Enjoy, Steven
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 4, 2007 12:45:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I am not sure what to do about WTF. He hasn't signed on to either board for days. I don't think that he is using lurking as a strategy so much as he has just legitimatly gotten to busy to keep playing. I would force sub him at this point but the game is so close to being over I am not sure it would make any difference.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 4, 2007 19:46:19 GMT -5
I can try to ping him again.
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Post by dnooman on Nov 4, 2007 22:35:33 GMT -5
I think that given the situation, you call it a town win. This isn't because I'm town, just because it makes the most sense logistically. WTF is suspected, and is very seldom around. The chances he will be voted for eventually are in my opinion 100%. This would end the game right?
It's not fair to the town when a scum lurks, and it seems to be just prolonging the inevitable to me in this situation.
I take back my request to call it. At least sub WTF so that there can be at least a little discourse.
I guess most of this is academic though, so whatever.
WTF is the last scum right? I just had this awful feeling that I read something wrong or incompletely.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 5, 2007 1:15:36 GMT -5
To be honest, it might be to WTF's advantage to not even bother trying to kill Idle during the night. In fact, WTF might be able to pull off a surprise upset if he stops lurking and piggybacks on Idle's recruit paranoia. Idle's almost to the point of obsessed with the idea of a recruit he's completely ignoring Roosh's claim. In the end game it's very possible that Idle could choose to lynch a near 100% confirmed townie over WTF.
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Post by ui on Nov 5, 2007 2:43:29 GMT -5
Eh, if you have established rules on what to do with lurkers, follow them. If not then you probably just have to let the game develop as-is. Posting less as scum is a strategy that I disagree with but it exists and has to be accounted for. He also might be staying logged out on purpose.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 5, 2007 9:53:23 GMT -5
Eh, if you have established rules on what to do with lurkers, follow them. If not then you probably just have to let the game develop as-is. Posting less as scum is a strategy that I disagree with but it exists and has to be accounted for. He also might be staying logged out on purpose. I guess, but this is kind of a depressing way to play out the last stages of what has been an exciting game - watching the town eat itself while the last scum kind of abandons the game and thereby wins it (potentially).
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 5, 2007 10:14:37 GMT -5
I sent him a text message via cell when NAF previously asked me to ping him, and I sent him another last night. We had a brief and non-game-related phone conversation last week. This being his first time playing, if he is lurking as a strategy, I don't believe he is aware that he is skirting the zone where people would judge him negatively for it.
I am confident that potential strategy is only a portion of the issue. He had previously voiced concern that he didn't have the bandwidth required to play as the game seemed to demand. I tried to reassure him that it would calm down, and NAF was publicly (and understandably) resistant to trying to find subs. I have no idea what their discussions were privately. This has been a bitch of a game for subs, and I think it would've long ago imploded if it weren't for the townies who kept subbing back in to keep things going. So before anyone writes my good friend off for being a jerk, just take a moment to recall all of the subs that have taken place, and the faction in which all of those subs have occurred.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 5, 2007 11:34:21 GMT -5
WTF isn't being a jerk. He just has had things come up. When we first spoke and he told me he was having trouble keeping up he was still managing to post enough to not be missed. He was keeping in contact and making his presence known. He said he didn't want to be subbed but thought he should be, and I talked him out of it. My mistake there.
Now that he is the final scum in a very tricky position him not being able to play is negativly effecting the game. This isn't his fault but we need to get someone in who can play this out.
FWIW I would love for him to play again. I thought when he was playing he was playing well, for a first timer.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 5, 2007 11:37:14 GMT -5
WTF isn't being a jerk. He just has had things come up. When we first spoke and he told me he was having trouble keeping up he was still managing to post enough to not be missed. He was keeping in contact and making his presence known. He said he didn't want to be subbed but thought he should be, and I talked him out of it. My mistake there. Now that he is the final scum in a very tricky position him not being able to play is negativly effecting the game. This isn't his fault but we need to get someone in who can play this out. FWIW I would love for him to play again. I thought when he was playing he was playing well, for a first timer. It's going to be damn hard to find a sub who doesn't know an unfair amount. I'm pretty sure anyone who's been chatting in here can't do it, right? Because I'd like to volunteer, but knowing that Roosh is lying about being 50% Bomb means I'd have a pretty unfair advantage.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 5, 2007 11:42:55 GMT -5
WTF isn't being a jerk. He just has had things come up. When we first spoke and he told me he was having trouble keeping up he was still managing to post enough to not be missed. He was keeping in contact and making his presence known. He said he didn't want to be subbed but thought he should be, and I talked him out of it. My mistake there. Now that he is the final scum in a very tricky position him not being able to play is negativly effecting the game. This isn't his fault but we need to get someone in who can play this out. FWIW I would love for him to play again. I thought when he was playing he was playing well, for a first timer. It's going to be gorram hard to find a sub who doesn't know an unfair amount. I'm pretty sure anyone who's been chatting in here can't do it, right? Because I'd like to volunteer, but knowing that Roosh is lying about being 50% Bomb means I'd have a pretty unfair advantage. mhaye requested that he be kept on the sub list. I am hoping he is willing to take over.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 5, 2007 17:55:38 GMT -5
Am I the only one that is thinking the town is being overly paranoid at this stage in the game? Or is it my full knowledge of what's going on that is affecting my judgment?
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 5, 2007 20:01:47 GMT -5
I find it completely plausible that NAF and Kat put a character named Top Dog in this game. If I were modding I could have come up with the same joke. They are truly truly evil and just want to see how this social experiment turns out. NAF: Hey Kat, why don't we toss in a Top Dog. Kat: Oh, evil, I like it. NAF: Then when one of them claims we can watch them twist. Who would believe we did that? Kat: What scum in their right mind would claim to be Top Dog after the last game we went through. That puts a whole new spin on WIFOM. I like it. NAF: It's settled then. Top Dog is in. Yeah that's how I envision the conversation going. Thanks Evil Moderators. You've at the very least made the game interesting. Ya know,l if you reverse who is saying what in that dialogue...that pretty much exactly what happened.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 5, 2007 21:21:18 GMT -5
I didn't think anyone was throwing wtf under the bus, but I just wanted to make sure no one was tempted to wander down that particular path. I don't know if we've made a convert out of him or not. He's a die-hard gaymer, but tends to devote his time to WoW, City of Heroes, and table-top games.
For my own interests, what are the next games in the pipe here and on The Dope again?
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Post by sinjin on Nov 5, 2007 23:38:09 GMT -5
For my own interests, what are the next games in the pipe here and on The Dope again? I would like to know this too!! I hated getting tossed out at the start. I want to play again....maybe not quite so fervently (newb, doof). And btw Cookies you had me fooled completely.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 6, 2007 8:40:35 GMT -5
For my own interests, what are the next games in the pipe here and on The Dope again? I would like to know this too!! I hated getting tossed out at the start. I want to play again....maybe not quite so fervently (newb, doof). And btw Cookies you had me fooled completely. Well, I guess these last few posts are as good a sign as any that it's about time. The next game to be held on these boards is a Blade Runner-themed game, and the moderator is positively guaranteed to not spend the whole game arguing with Blaster Master. With Idle's permission, I'll post the introductory color and commence sign-ups presently. I would like to start roughly one week after the end of the present game, to allow for deconstruction of this one - I think there's going to be a lot of post-game discussion.
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Post by sinjin on Nov 6, 2007 9:27:31 GMT -5
All righty then. I'm so hoping I get to be the electric sheep.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 6, 2007 11:31:22 GMT -5
I would like to know this too!! I hated getting tossed out at the start. I want to play again....maybe not quite so fervently (newb, doof). And btw Cookies you had me fooled completely. Well, I guess these last few posts are as good a sign as any that it's about time. The next game to be held on these boards is a Blade Runner-themed game, and the moderator is positively guaranteed to not spend the whole game arguing with Blaster Master. With Idle's permission, I'll post the introductory color and commence sign-ups presently. I would like to start roughly one week after the end of the present game, to allow for deconstruction of this one - I think there's going to be a lot of post-game discussion. I want in. I have said it before, but I want to make sure it is not forgotten. I hope that there is a good bit of post game deconstruction with this game. I was hoping that this game would shake up some of our preconceived notions of how the game should be played. I found M5 to be frustrating in that respect. And so when Kat and I started talking the first few things we discussed were closed setup and majority lynchings because those would force radical changes in approach to the game. JSexton talked us out of some of our other even wackier ideas (we were originally going to have a secret scum group within the scum group that had an independent win condition and got to talk privately during the whole game on their own board, and other even stranger things.)
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 6, 2007 11:39:10 GMT -5
Well, I guess these last few posts are as good a sign as any that it's about time. The next game to be held on these boards is a Blade Runner-themed game, and the moderator is positively guaranteed to not spend the whole game arguing with Blaster Master. With Idle's permission, I'll post the introductory color and commence sign-ups presently. I would like to start roughly one week after the end of the present game, to allow for deconstruction of this one - I think there's going to be a lot of post-game discussion. I want in. I have said it before, but I want to make sure it is not forgotten. I hope that there is a good bit of post game deconstruction with this game. I was hoping that this game would shake up some of our preconceived notions of how the game should be played. I found M5 to be frustrating in that respect. And so when Kat and I started talking the first few things we discussed were closed setup and majority lynchings because those would force radical changes in approach to the game. JSexton talked us out of some of our other even wackier ideas (we were originally going to have a secret scum group within the scum group that had an independent win condition and got to talk privately during the whole game on their own board, and other even stranger things.) Did you feel it was successful? What did you notice from your perspective about the differences? Although I've gotten to watch the last few Days with perfect knowledge, it's still hard to get a good handle on how the game was played versus how it could have been played, if that makes sense.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 6, 2007 11:52:38 GMT -5
I want in. I have said it before, but I want to make sure it is not forgotten. I hope that there is a good bit of post game deconstruction with this game. I was hoping that this game would shake up some of our preconceived notions of how the game should be played. I found M5 to be frustrating in that respect. And so when Kat and I started talking the first few things we discussed were closed setup and majority lynchings because those would force radical changes in approach to the game. JSexton talked us out of some of our other even wackier ideas (we were originally going to have a secret scum group within the scum group that had an independent win condition and got to talk privately during the whole game on their own board, and other even stranger things.) Did you feel it was successful? What did you notice from your perspective about the differences? Although I've gotten to watch the last few Days with perfect knowledge, it's still hard to get a good handle on how the game was played versus how it could have been played, if that makes sense. I don't know if it was successful or not yet. I think ultimately it may end up being successful. If we had been able to keep people from dropping out, and if the scum hadn't gutted themselves I think I would have a better idea. I do think the town has been shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly due to a lack of logical thinking, or even an attempt at logical thinking. Ui said back on Day 4, I think, that scum didn't have a chance of winning because of how they were playing, but I don't think that the town would have ever picked up on those patterns, because they aren't looking for patterns. Their entire strategy this game has been metagaming, and frankly this game was designed to punish that approach to playing. I think scum would have won handily if CK, Cookies, OR Pygmy were still alive. Any one of them would have been enough to clinch the game for the scum, and as it is I think mhaye has a real shot of pulling this one out. And I think that is because the town is once again too paranoid, and not logical enough. I would be interested to see what Kat, JSexton and Sach think of how the game has played out. What about you story, what do you think?
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 6, 2007 14:22:50 GMT -5
I think it is quite hard to comment on how the players played the game when I was watching with perfect knowledge. As the first closed game for this group of ours, I think NAF and Kat were pretty good about considering the rolename issue, and having good names be bad and bad names be good was a fair and important construction. But NAF and Kat also made sure there were enough bodies so that Town could 'waste a kill' and learn that names should count for very little. That I think worked out quite well, but Town got lucky that scum turned in Drain Bead instead of Cookies.
I think the biggest town mistake was the dotchan lynch (the first one was understandable, the second one was totally illogical). Town should have been able ot piece together dotchan's story and Hal's story to confirm them. To some extent this is a product of the closed set-up. Because anything is possible, Town is not willing to believe anyone is Town. The games have all been rather paranoid, but in the closed setting, paranoia really reached unprecedented levels. Some are even suspecting dotchan again! A confirmed Mason! Now that's paranoia for you. If town lynches dotchan again, I think NAF and Kat should just mercy kill the rest of the town and beat them over their heads with a wifflebat.
This game, like M5, really was going well for scum. If not for Cookies slip, I think scum would have won handily. I think they overplayed their hand with the whole Captain Klutz thing too.
I think as the first closed game for our group, it was a success. I think the game was entertaining and lessons about closed games were made clear (both in playing and design). The scum slip made the endgame less dramatic, but I find the early part of the game the most engaging anyway.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 6, 2007 14:35:41 GMT -5
Aside from some nit-picking that I've participated in (and still feel justified about ), I think this game has been a success. Many of the things that have put the game in jeopardy of breaking or being "less fun" were out of the hands of the Mods or co-creators. 1 - Roosh's early days 2 - blind chance with respect to triggers and pre-determined interactions 3 - unpredictability of how each individual would interpret the closed set up (or anyone else in it with them) at any given moment 4 - The difficulty of subbing 5 - Goddamn motherfucking cross-post grenades 6 - a few other things that I'm sure I'm forgetting.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 6, 2007 15:52:36 GMT -5
I put up the introduction and sign-up post: psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=temp&action=display&thread=1194382217NAF - What I think is that I really wish I could play the game again. I think I approached it pretty foolishly, and tried to outsmart the game, in essence, rather than just playing it. I think the closed set-up is actually pretty interesting, and you'll note that I've adopted a partially closed arrangement for the new game because of how much I enjoyed playing and watching this one.
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Parzival
Mome Rath
Let's all strive to do our best today![on:forgot to log out][of:forgot to log in]
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Post by Parzival on Nov 6, 2007 16:14:27 GMT -5
From our point of view, I think it looks near-impossible for the scum, but I'm anxious to see how far it'll go.
mhaye may have been able to get Roosh to check out someone else tonight. But there are too many 'confirmed' town for him to survive a final 3.
If Roosh and nesta make it, they'll vote together. If one of them dies, the other will likely be confirmed (and if Roosh dies, more people will be confirmed). If Hal stays in the open tonight (and he hopefully will) he'll know that nesta and Roosh are shiny. DBI* instinctively knows Hal to be shiny, and most everyone else ought to as well. Most will trust her over mhaye too. Idle is mod-confirmed, so anyone paired with him won't vote him out. (Once you get to the final three, recruitment is an impossibility unless it was an unrevealed attribute of the scum as a whole).
Hockey Monkey will be confirmed if she's in the final three, since one of Roosh/nesta will have died. And zeriel is highly unlikely to make it to 3, and even if he does he'll probably be confirmed by investigation too.
*I should mention I was never more pissed off in this game than at her second lynch, and I felt really bad because I was too late with what I thought was a good argument to not kill her.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 6, 2007 17:10:04 GMT -5
The only way I see mhaye surviving this is if the town gets too wrapped up in the recruiting possibility, but even then it's a slim chance.
As for the game itself, I obviously have no game to compare it to, but I think it went rather well. I think the things that players initially balked at (like the majority-lynch or no-lynch rule) was what made this game good. It makes people play a different kind of strategy than usual.
I think one thing that would have helped overall would have been to have a closed set-up game that wasn't involved with an intricate universe such as Firefly. The biggest stalling point in the game was that everybody was playing WIFOM with too many things that took away from the actual strategy of the game. If the first closed game had been a completely made up scenario, a la Cult of Sekham, I think a lot of the problems that plagued the players in the early Days wouldn't have happened (i.e. Roosh's Manifesto).
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Post by Drain Bead on Nov 7, 2007 7:07:21 GMT -5
This is going to get interesting.
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