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Post by sachertorte on Nov 23, 2010 16:48:21 GMT -5
While it is true that there is information to be had from lynches -- that isn't what I said. I said we don't need information until we need to vote for someone to lynch. Any information dump this night could be 'dumped' next week and therefore be available for determining a lynch candidate, but NOT available for the current Night Actions.
It is my assertion that Pleonast believes that an information dump during Day One is better than revealing that same information during Night Zero. I feel this is a reasonable opinion and I agree with it except that I find it boring.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 23, 2010 16:48:33 GMT -5
Christ, it's not even Day 1 and already I am behind. I am going to not really be around much until after the weekend. But I will try to keep up until then. Let's not do a mass claim and post our role PM's on Day One. Christ, yes. The mass claim discussion in Evil Dead II drove me crazy. As a Town power role I couldn't offer any public opinion of whether it was a good idea because I had no idea what a vanilla PM looked like. Posting an opinion of the matter stood a good chance of revealing my ignorance, which would have outed me as a power role. By Day Two I think that we'd deduced that something like 3 players had power roles because of the lengthy mass-claim discussion. A mass claim is exceedingly unlikely to help town and even discussing it can give away power roles, so please, let's for once not do this. And yet, town slaughtered scum in that game, and I think the mass claim discussion had something to do with that. (Having PFKs that were shooting for scum didn't hurt, but town lynched a few scum on their own too). I like talking about a mass claim. Well, I like talking about it sometimes, it won't always have the desired effect. In that game what talking about the mass claim did was get things shaking, that's useful in any game, even if that particular conversation isn't necessarily always the best way to get things shaking. Any lightning rod discussion will do. You have to start to get people to share as quickly as possible or town will never get anywhere.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 23, 2010 16:58:24 GMT -5
Looks like I'm " vanilla by destiny" this game. I had thought we had generally decided that claims on Day 1 or Night 0 were not good things. Why the claim, Pleo? I was not a part of any such decision. I don't feel it's beneficial to discuss why I made the claim. Are you actually advocating non-participation, here? Because if you are, I'm profoundly confused. I mean, really, what's the point? For Night Zero, when we risk giving information to scum, yet not get the benefit of lynching based on that information, is not a trade that helps the town. FOS Pleonast and Special Ed for taking a grammatically ambiguous statement ("help out the town power roles") and calling out Mahaloth on the worst possible (and dubiously plausible) interpretation thereof. Eh. It's Mafia. We won't get far if we assume the best of everyone.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 23, 2010 16:59:03 GMT -5
sorry. but seriously sach cite me a couple of games where the votes led to the majority of scum lynches as opposed to just discussion in thread. maybe it is confirmation bias but shoot it seems like town catches scum by making them talk and take positions not because you voted for xyz. but i could be wrong and will welcome you rapier analysis to prove me so. Read what I wrote. Don't listen to the voices in your head. The distinction isn't discussion/no-discussion... it is Discuss Now or Discuss during Day One. There is a BIG difference. And what big position do you think we will be able to leverage scum into? There is NO LYNCH during Night Zero. We could all vote for one person right now (hell you can choose me), but you're not going to get anything out of that person whether that person is scum or town! No claim, no nothing -- because there isn't a lynch stick to wave around. Whether Town or Scum, I would hope that any player put under pressure during Night Zero would have the wherewithal to ignore the poking until Day One begins. Sheesh.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 23, 2010 17:04:51 GMT -5
I'm still confused, not that this is anything unusual. The less we say, the less chance that TOWN is going to screw up? Seriously?
Also, Death, the Devil, and the Hanged Man are not necessarily as negative as one might think; the Hanged Man/Traitor in particular. The Tower is probably "worse" than the Hanged Man.
And if you don't think Buff hasn't anticipated people associating the meaning of the cards with people's roles, and taken steps to prevent/subvert that, you haven't been paying attention.
I'm still glad I was a third-party survivor in Ragnarok.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 23, 2010 17:06:44 GMT -5
Pleonast's point of view has a solid reasoning behind it. I'd support it too if it weren't so boring. What point of view is that? The point of view where he claimed vanilla early on Night 0? Or the point of view where he doesn't want to expose the town power roles? Seems to me the best way to expose the town power roles is to have all of the vanillas claim. Doesn't seem like solid reasoning to me. The reasoning is motivation for radio silence. I agree that claiming vanilla contradicts the notion of radio silence. But Pleonast also probably feels unencumbered by the notion that she needs to tell the truth on that point.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 23, 2010 17:08:15 GMT -5
I'm still confused, not that this is anything unusual. The less we say, the less chance that TOWN is going to screw up? Seriously? During Night Zero, yes.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 23, 2010 17:11:00 GMT -5
I think the fundamental disconnect here is that I fail to comprehend any difference between Night Zero and any other Night in which strategy is allowed.
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Post by special on Nov 23, 2010 17:20:47 GMT -5
FOS Pleonast and Special Ed for taking a grammatically ambiguous statement ("help out the town power roles") and calling out Mahaloth on the worst possible (and dubiously plausible) interpretation thereof. Slightly stronger FOS to Ed than to Pleonast, maybe, since he was second to the topic and clearly did notice the "innocent" interpretation, yet treated the "scummy" one as plausible anyway. You can take you FOS and, well, I don't want to know what you'd do with it. If you read, you'll notice that I was pointing out the 2 possibilities.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 23, 2010 17:23:58 GMT -5
The benefit of night strategy is the ability to claim and publish non-public info immediately before dawn so as to get the information out in the open while minimizing the danger of being killed before being able to do so. Claim and publish just before Dawn, and a player might be able to duck a nightkill as well.
For Night Zero there is no information to publish, therefore no benefit to night strategy.
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Post by Rysto on Nov 23, 2010 17:37:37 GMT -5
I'm going to throw out the idea I first proposed in Evil Dead II. If the mod allows Night strategy, each Night we should vote on who a hypothetical Vig should kill. If we have a Vig then it's like gaining a free lynch, and it turns the Vig from a marginally useful Town role to an extremely useful role. We may or may not have a full Vig in this game, but even if we don't the voting will tell us something.
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Post by charr on Nov 23, 2010 17:47:01 GMT -5
Hey, just finished reading through some of the comments.
peekercpa Why vote for me? If you were referring to the "Mass-Claim" comment, well, that was made BEFORE the PM was received, so I don't really see the relevance of it. Right now, the chances of me being Vanilla or Mafia are as equal as everyone else =w=
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 23, 2010 18:00:23 GMT -5
I'm going to throw out the idea I first proposed in Evil Dead II. If the mod allows Night strategy, each Night we should vote on who a hypothetical Vig should kill. If we have a Vig then it's like gaining a free lynch, and it turns the Vig from a marginally useful Town role to an extremely useful role. We may or may not have a full Vig in this game, but even if we don't the voting will tell us something. Why would we do that? Why would we give Scum the opportunity to sway the Vig to kill someone they KNOW isn't Scum? Also, the voting wouldn't tell us any more than standard lynch voting would. Finally, only this Night is allowed strategy. All other Nights will be fluff only, per the rules.
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 23, 2010 18:03:58 GMT -5
sorry. but seriously sach cite me a couple of games where the votes led to the majority of scum lynches as opposed to just discussion in thread. maybe it is confirmation bias but shoot it seems like town catches scum by making them talk and take positions not because you voted for xyz. but i could be wrong and will welcome you rapier analysis to prove me so. Read what I wrote. Don't listen to the voices in your head. The distinction isn't discussion/no-discussion... it is Discuss Now or Discuss during Day One. There is a BIG difference. And what big position do you think we will be able to leverage scum into? There is NO LYNCH during Night Zero. We could all vote for one person right now (hell you can choose me), but you're not going to get anything out of that person whether that person is scum or town! No claim, no nothing -- because there isn't a lynch stick to wave around. Whether Town or Scum, I would hope that any player put under pressure during Night Zero would have the wherewithal to ignore the poking until Day One begins. Sheesh. sorry sach, don't see it. but shoot when have we ever agreed on anything? this feels to me like a perfect opportunity to get some of the traditional Day one nonsense out of the way as well as start kicking some stuff off without the risk of a mis lynch. i mean c'mon, how many times have you seen a Day 1 lynch decided by: "shoot i just don't know but to heck with it, i'll vote abc"? and while i certainly understand the lynch stick position you take i also think that silence, regardless of whether it is Night zero or Day 9 is just not in town's best interest. the point i was trying to make is that town has a much better chance of catching scum when they are engaged in discussion as opposed to sitting around watching paint dry in the library. and in this specific instance if we are allowed to talk i think we take advantage of it.
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Post by Rysto on Nov 23, 2010 18:06:25 GMT -5
Why would we do that? Why would we give Scum the opportunity to sway the Vig to kill someone they KNOW isn't Scum? Same reason that we lynch people. You say that like the lynch record isn't the most crucial piece of public information for the Town.
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 23, 2010 18:14:23 GMT -5
Hey, just finished reading through some of the comments. peekercpa Why vote for me? If you were referring to the "Mass-Claim" comment, well, that was made BEFORE the PM was received, so I don't really see the relevance of it. Right now, the chances of me being Vanilla or Mafia are as equal as everyone else =w= ok charr here's the deal. it seems that this board has an unusual orientation. we always bemoan the fact that we need more newer folks to play. then invariably we lynch their asses right out of the gate. and other than burb (who is kind of becoming like a bad penny) we don't see as much of them again as we would like. so it's kind of a bad joke and my vote that does not count would certainly be moved elsewhere unless you have something you want to say to influence that differently which really won't matter for a bit anyways. how many games have you played and where, char?
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 23, 2010 18:18:05 GMT -5
What, you don't want someone to slip and help out our town power roles? No, I actually do not want to out our town power roles. Why do you? I think it would be better if we had as little in-game discussion as possible, so that our town power roles do not slip and out themselves. is assuming facts not in evidence. It's hardly a giant leap to assume that the scum in this game can kill at Night.[/quote] This is an interesting statement coming from someone who apparently just claimed to be Vanilla ergo shrinking the uknown pool which results in a small step towards outing power roles. But I think you also may be misinterpreting "help out" which has a different meaning than "help to out".
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 23, 2010 18:18:50 GMT -5
Why. Why when you just hit the reply button, do the quote tags break themselves?
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Post by Renata on Nov 23, 2010 18:19:18 GMT -5
FOS Pleonast and Special Ed for taking a grammatically ambiguous statement ("help out the town power roles") and calling out Mahaloth on the worst possible (and dubiously plausible) interpretation thereof. Slightly stronger FOS to Ed than to Pleonast, maybe, since he was second to the topic and clearly did notice the "innocent" interpretation, yet treated the "scummy" one as plausible anyway. You can take you FOS and, well, I don't want to know what you'd do with it. If you read, you'll notice that I was pointing out the 2 possibilities. That's the whole point. What scum, in their right mind or out of it, comes out on Night Zero of a game and says La-di-da let's out us some power roles? It's ridiculous, but you treated it as if it was plausibly a slip by Mahaloth, rather than your own choice of how to interpret something ambiguous.
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 23, 2010 18:26:01 GMT -5
While it is true that there is information to be had from lynches -- that isn't what I said. I said we don't need information until we need to vote for someone to lynch. Any information dump this night could be 'dumped' next week and therefore be available for determining a lynch candidate, but NOT available for the current Night Actions. and sach i hear you but .... why would anyone think that having information would be bad for any current Night actions. would it be bad, for a town compuls vig, doc or dick (if one or more exists) to not be able to winnow the field a bit? i mean scum will already be in an advantage if shooting blind because they only fire into a subset. while freacking town is shooting totally blind if silence is our mantra. i believe that we will be down one townie in the morning. to not have some input from everyone when that occurs is the height of flying blind. that is what scum wants town to do. double your sheesh and add a peeps.
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Post by Renata on Nov 23, 2010 18:28:30 GMT -5
Regarding discussion on Night Zero, all I can say is there's a reason people typically post less when scum than when they are townies.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 23, 2010 18:31:31 GMT -5
But I think you also may be misinterpreting "help out" which has a different meaning than "help to out". Anne will help grade papers.Bob will help wash dishes.Chris will help finish the pitcher of beer.Perhaps someone will help out the town power roles.Inserting a "to" into sentences like these is awkward. At least in my colloquial dialect.
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 23, 2010 18:34:28 GMT -5
You say that like the lynch record isn't the most crucial piece of public information for the Town. <snipped> i am going to go nuts with this type of shit. i need some objective cites on this whole vote record being able to catch scum nonsense. scum do what scum do, fcs. like i already asked sach give me some objective evidence that this crud works. cripes. i will position myself that scum get caught by posting not by voting. i always come back to it, but ragnorak was the perfect example of scum just frying a townie. and not a soul caught it (of course it was with mhaye, NAF and polluxo). heebus creebus, and that's why i have such an issue with sach currently. who the hell cares about the votes let's just talk and see what falls out.
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Post by Rysto on Nov 23, 2010 18:49:00 GMT -5
I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said "lynch record". I very specifically did not say "vote record". What I meant by "lynch record" was basically all of the interactions that lead up to a lynch, including votes, arguments, defences, etc. All of those interactions are were you find most of the information. If not for the lynch, scum could just sit back and do nothing of importance during the Day. Why wouldn't we do that a second time at Night if we had the chance?
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 23, 2010 19:15:41 GMT -5
You say that like the lynch record isn't the most crucial piece of public information for the Town. <snipped> i am going to go nuts with this type of shit. That's because you aren't actually reading what people are saying. You are acting based on what you think others have said. I don't feel obligated to fulfill your request because I never said what you said I said. After you started railing about data from lynchings, I did make a sidenote that information is to be had from lynches (duh, knowing alignments is HARD DATA), which really is more than you deserve. But the fundamental point you need to get into your head is that radio silence during Night Zero does NOT require lack of discussion during DAY ONE. There is a strong difference between what people want and hope for versus the hard reality of truth. While its nice for politicians to rail about the importance of education, the reality is education isn't a simple thing to fix. Similarly, it's nice to put out vague platitudes about how discussing things will 'help town powers hone in on scum,' the reality is this notion is severely less helpful to Town than it is to scum. Examples: the standard detective I don't care if the cop investigates scum or town. Hell, I can give you a strong and compelling argument that the detective is actually better off investigating Town than investigating scum. So why do we need to 'help town powers' ID who might be scum and who might be town? The Cop is powerful regardless of who gets investigated. Heck random.org it for all I care. Example 2: The Doc A doc protect is a shot in the dark. Any and all discussion will not make a lick of difference in the doc's effectiveness. Truly, the best a doc could hope for would be for the Cop to tip off who he is so that the Doc can protect a high priority target. But I think we can all agree that this is a BAD IDEA. Do I need to continue?
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Post by severus on Nov 23, 2010 19:30:34 GMT -5
You can take you FOS and, well, I don't want to know what you'd do with it. If you read, you'll notice that I was pointing out the 2 possibilities. That's the whole point. What scum, in their right mind or out of it, comes out on Night Zero of a game and says La-di-da let's out us some power roles? It's ridiculous, but you treated it as if it was plausibly a slip by Mahaloth, rather than your own choice of how to interpret something ambiguous. You're right. My mistake. Scum never slip. serious no b.s. question. do we actually get it on or do we just let everyone who has a Night action, which i am assuming there are some, just fire wildly into the crowd? or do we just treat this as a normal cycle with no lynch type of deal? :let's get it on....: I think we should talk. Perhaps someone will slip and help out the town power roles. Did bufftabby say anything about this game being "odd" or are we we expecting a pretty typical mafia game?
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Post by severus on Nov 23, 2010 19:30:55 GMT -5
Well crap
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Post by special on Nov 23, 2010 19:37:22 GMT -5
Well, that'll learn me.
my apologies to the moddess. The previous posts were mine.
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 23, 2010 20:29:16 GMT -5
That's the whole point. What scum, in their right mind or out of it, comes out on Night Zero of a game and says La-di-da let's out us some power roles? It's ridiculous, but you treated it as if it was plausibly a slip by Mahaloth, rather than your own choice of how to interpret something ambiguous. You're right. My mistake. Scum never slip. :let's get it on....: I think we should talk. Perhaps someone will slip and help out the town power roles. Did bufftabby say anything about this game being "odd" or are we we expecting a pretty typical mafia game? [/quote] oh fracking noes. not again.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 23, 2010 21:54:01 GMT -5
serious no b.s. question. do we actually get it on or do we just let everyone who has a Night action, which i am assuming there are some, just fire wildly into the crowd? or do we just treat this as a normal cycle with no lynch type of deal? :let's get it on....: I think we should talk. Perhaps someone will slip and help out the town power roles.
Did bufftabby say anything about this game being "odd" or are we we expecting a pretty typical mafia game?Bolded color mine. I just want to be clear that I think that Mahaloth's use of 'out' was not a synonym to 'expose' but rather he was using 'help out' as the figure of speech that means to provide assistance, as in "Hey Town power roles, I'm a scummy who made a slip, so if one of you has a killing role or an investigative role, I just made myself a handy target for that." Maybe I've been whooshed, but there seems to have been a whole strain of conversation resulting from the 'expose' interpretation of that statement.
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