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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 23, 2010 21:54:22 GMT -5
sigh
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 23, 2010 21:56:15 GMT -5
serious no b.s. question. do we actually get it on or do we just let everyone who has a Night action, which i am assuming there are some, just fire wildly into the crowd? or do we just treat this as a normal cycle with no lynch type of deal? :let's get it on....: I think we should talk. Perhaps someone will slip and help[/color] out the town power roles. Did bufftabby say anything about this game being "odd" or are we we expecting a pretty typical mafia game?[/quote] Bolded color mine. I just want to be clear that I think that Mahaloth's use of 'out' was not a synonym to 'expose' but rather he was using 'help out' as the figure of speech that means to provide assistance, as in "Hey Town power roles, I'm a scummy who made a slip, so if one of you has a killing role or an investigative role, I just made myself a handy target for that." Maybe I've been whooshed, but there seems to have been a whole strain of conversation resulting from the 'expose' interpretation of that statement.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 23, 2010 21:56:38 GMT -5
Fucking hell. I give up.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Nov 24, 2010 0:17:15 GMT -5
Cookies, if it's any consolation to you, I understood what you were saying the first time... I have to admit, I originally read Mahaloth's statement as meaning "help expose the town power roles", and thought that was an absolutely idiotic thing to say. It never occurred to me that the word "out" was meant to be in conjunction with the word "help", so that he meant "assist the town power roles". But upon further reflection, it does seem likely that the latter meaning was the intended one.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 24, 2010 2:26:28 GMT -5
I thought it was a joke. A wry take on the idea that in mafia, even the best-intentioned plans seem to end in revealing power roles. Didn't we end up outing the three masons one after the other in halloween mafia?
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 2:31:59 GMT -5
i understood what you were saying cookies. and that is how i read it as well. and i may just be being naive but i agree with both you and burb that assistance was intended not exposure.
and sach i will definitely get back to you in the morning over a cup of cofffee (or tea if this stinking cold gets worse) rather than trying to respond over a nasty glass of alka seltzer.
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 2:33:24 GMT -5
I thought it was a joke. A wry take on the idea that in mafia, even the best-intentioned plans seem to end in revealing power roles. Didn't we end up outing the three masons one after the other in halloween mafia? actually i think we brought that on ourselves, but meh. g'night all and may this headache pass.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Nov 24, 2010 7:43:56 GMT -5
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Total Ullz
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You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
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Post by Total Ullz on Nov 24, 2010 7:51:02 GMT -5
I have to agree that it makes sense for us all to keep really quiet Night 0. Talking might expose power roles or vanilla-slips (happens very often early in games). Also I think that would be boring. (Also I like talking - so I tend to do it ). I was one talking about a claim in Evil Dead II and I liked my idea in that game (posting a snip of the PM without giving away alignment or powers). However it was a Storyteller-game and he has a history of writing small parts for all players. This game (I bet) that idea will not work. I've had the pleasure to mod with bufftabby and she has a different approach to PMs. Also I doubt we'd get anything from a name claim. If we get to the point where we have masons** out and a cop with 3-5 confirmed Townies (give or take a possible Godfather) I could see us talk of a mass claim. However - we just had one in Evil Dead II and I utterly failed to see it do us any good. If others think it did I'd love to hear what on earth makes them think so **Just keep in mind she was a part of the awesome Ragnarok-design-team
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Post by Mahaloth on Nov 24, 2010 8:07:51 GMT -5
I just now realized what people were misreading about my post.
I meant "help out" as in "aid and assist", not "reveal".
I was stunned that people could find that statement in any way suspicious. I see what you thought, now. Gotta love the interpretation of written words vs. how they sound in our heads.
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Post by Renata on Nov 24, 2010 9:09:23 GMT -5
There is a strong difference between what people want and hope for versus the hard reality of truth. While its nice for politicians to rail about the importance of education, the reality is education isn't a simple thing to fix. Similarly, it's nice to put out vague platitudes about how discussing things will 'help town powers hone in on scum,' the reality is this notion is severely less helpful to Town than it is to scum. Oh BS, sach. I get that town powers are more likely to give something away than the scum are, and that the scum are more likely to pick up on such slips than other town are, to boot. I really do get that. But you can't reduce this game to "how do we best hide the town powers from the scum". There is also the "vanilla" game -- listening to what people say and how they say it, forming impressions, getting people on record for the long run -- and you're acting like that's not even a factor to be considered, much less (as I believe it to be) the single most important weapon the town has.
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Post by Renata on Nov 24, 2010 9:33:43 GMT -5
That's the whole point. What scum, in their right mind or out of it, comes out on Night Zero of a game and says La-di-da let's out us some power roles? It's ridiculous, but you treated it as if it was plausibly a slip by Mahaloth, rather than your own choice of how to interpret something ambiguous. You're right. My mistake. Scum never slip. Sarcasm noted. Do they slip like that, Ed? Do they come into the thread, think "oh hey, let's say something nice and innocuous like "let's help the town power roles find the scum", then accidentally slip in the word "out" ... why, because they're just SO focused on finding town power roles that they can't help themselves? "Help out" as "help" is completely normal English. Regardless of Mahaloth's alignment, it is by far more likely that he meant it that way than that he did such a bizarre thing. But accepting "help out" to mean the obvious thing doesn't paint Mahaloth as scummy, does it? In promoting this as a plausible theory, you're doing essentially the same thing as the person who jumps on an ambiguously PIS-ish statement as suspicious, then makes a big show of "well I could see the innocent interpretation, but just look at that PIS ..." Those people are so often scum.
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Post by Renata on Nov 24, 2010 9:34:35 GMT -5
NETA: *sigh*, broken tag. The first line below the quote box was from Ed.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 9:50:31 GMT -5
Oh BS, sach. I get that town powers are more likely to give something away than the scum are, and that the scum are more likely to pick up on such slips than other town are, to boot. I really do get that. But you can't reduce this game to "how do we best hide the town powers from the scum". There is also the "vanilla" game -- listening to what people say and how they say it, forming impressions, getting people on record for the long run -- and you're acting like that's not even a factor to be considered, much less (as I believe it to be) the single most important weapon the town has. Is it really so hard to distinguish a difference in approach regarding Night Zero and Day One? Why is it so hard to accept that different circumstances require a different point of view? In other words, "hide town powers during Night Zero" and "play the game in earnest during Day One." It's not rocket science. Really. Why is it you must take one statement about Night Zero, and pretend that I mean the same thing for the entire game? I've explicitly outlined the futility of 'information' in regard to Cop effectiveness during Night Zero. Everything you've said about the game I agree with... EXCEPT during Night Zero. Once Day One starts I'm with you. Discussion is the utmost importance. I think my record on this point and general frustration with lurkers demonstrates this belief quite well. But I'm not talking about the game in general. I'm talking about Night Zero.
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Post by Renata on Nov 24, 2010 10:10:22 GMT -5
I don't believe you do mean the same thing for the entire game. What I don't get is this IMO artificial distinction between talk now and talk later. Talk now has the potential to help us in the same way now as it will at any other time. We have essentially twice as long to decide the first lynch as we otherwise would have. It is not at all unlikely that the town could use that extra time to make better decisions than otherwise, especially given that there will be actions taken part-way through. Against that is only the debatable risk that someone will give away something game-changing to the scum. More talk has an inarguable benefit IMO; the risk is only hypothetical. You're focusing on the risk while ignoring the benefit.
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 10:18:06 GMT -5
You say that like the lynch record isn't the most crucial piece of public information for the Town. I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said "lynch record". I very specifically did not say "vote record". What I meant by "lynch record" was basically all of the interactions that lead up to a lynch, including votes, arguments, defences, etc. All of those interactions are were you find most of the information. If not for the lynch, scum could just sit back and do nothing of importance during the Day. Why wouldn't we do that a second time at Night if we had the chance? That's because you aren't actually reading what people are saying. You are acting based on what you think others have said. rysto makes the first statement and then when i make my little ol' comment he follows up with the second statement. so it appears through the peek filter that he includes discussion and the resulting reactons and interactions as being a key component to this game which is what i have been trying to espouse. i think silence merely results in the passage of time. it's why i personally don't like fluff only Nights. quick question sach what is your opinon on no strategy Nights? Similarly, it's nice to put out vague platitudes about how discussing things will 'help town powers hone in on scum,' the reality is this notion is severely less helpful to Town than it is to scum. <all quotes attributed to others were to some extent snipped> so if we are not to use discussion to hone in on scum do we just hope that we have a detective and they "out" (in honor to zed) the scum or do you have like a lucky penny or magic 8 ball? and yes i understand that you specifically say "town powers" but are they not merely a subset of town?
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Post by Renata on Nov 24, 2010 10:26:11 GMT -5
No going away thread here either? I hate to clutter up an active thread, but need to say I'll be away from tonight until Sunday, internet access possible but questionable; and more importantly that the second half of December will certainly be a wash akin to how the last 2-3 weeks were for me on the Dope and Giraffe, should I live that long.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 24, 2010 10:32:54 GMT -5
But accepting "help out" to mean the obvious thing doesn't paint Mahaloth as scummy, does it? I'd say the obvious interpretation is the scummy one. That's how I first read it and it was only after some commentary I realized there's an innocent possibility. This group commonly uses the word "out" as a verb. Why are you so eager to accept the innocent interpretation?
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Post by Rysto on Nov 24, 2010 10:36:39 GMT -5
I'd say the obvious interpretation is the scummy one. That's how I first read it and it was only after some commentary I realized there's an innocent possibility. This group commonly uses the word "out" as a verb. I completely disagree. Where I live, "help out" is a common idiom meaning the same thing as "help". But anyway, are you honestly arguing that a scummy Mahaloth is going to out-and-out say that he wants to take an action with the hopes that it will out a power role? Seriously? Who would ever do that?
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 10:39:33 GMT -5
But accepting "help out" to mean the obvious thing doesn't paint Mahaloth as scummy, does it? I'd say the obvious interpretation is the scummy one. That's how I first read it and it was only after some commentary I realized there's an innocent possibility. This group commonly uses the word "out" as a verb. Why are you so eager to accept the innocent interpretation? and maybe it's regional or just personal but in these parts and with the folks i interact with the conversation is typically along the lines of: person 1: hey, where you going? person2: i am going to help out a friend/i am going to help out at the school/i am going to help out *insert whatever*.
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 10:41:03 GMT -5
uh, what rysto said.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 10:46:09 GMT -5
I don't believe you do mean the same thing for the entire game. Well that's good to hear. But then you aren't making sense What's artificial about it? There is a clear division line: we call it Dawn. Stuff that could happen before Dawn: Night Actions, discussion of who to lynch Stuff that could happen after Dawn: Discussion of who to lynch By waiting until after Dawn, the discussion occurs in a situation where the discussion itself cannot inform Night Actions. See? Clear difference. Don't pretend there isn't one. I can accept that you may not hold the difference as being significant to you, but don't pretend that it isn't there at all. I reject the supposed utility of what you propose. Like I said before, it's an empty platitude. The idea that we will 'get somewhere' during Night Zero, is not something that I believe to be true. I can accept that you believe it to be true, but that doesn't mean it IS true. (I would also like to point out that I'm not strictly against discussion during Night One. I'm defending the point of view as valid, which it is). That is your assumption. I do not view Night One the same way. And the exact same talk can happen (with better motivation) during Day One. Bottom line: we aren't lynching anyone Tonight. No. I've judged the benefit to be miniscule. See argument regarding investigator power. Discussion at this point will not better inform the Cop. A shot in the dark is pretty much just as good as an 'informed' one. Anything that can be discussed during Night Zero can be discussed during Day One. I suppose you could pose a quantity of time argument, but we will have from Monday to Saturday of next week for Day One. That should be plenty. Of course we will wind up scrambling at the end of the Day, but such scrambles are SOP and would happen even if the Day was two weeks or even a MONTH long. To review: My views on Night Zero boiled up mainly in defense of Pleonast who posited a sort of radio silence for Night Zero: No, I actually do not want to out our town power roles. Why do you? I think it would be better if we had as little in-game discussion as possible, so that our town power roles do not slip and out themselves. To which Sister Coyote replied: Are you actually advocating non-participation, here? Because if you are, I'm profoundly confused. I mean, really, what's the point? To which I replied that such a view for Night Zero is not unreasonable.
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Post by special on Nov 24, 2010 10:50:43 GMT -5
That's the whole point. What scum, in their right mind or out of it, comes out on Night Zero of a game and says La-di-da let's out us some power roles? It's ridiculous, but you treated it as if it was plausibly a slip by Mahaloth, rather than your own choice of how to interpret something ambiguous. You're right. My mistake. Scum never slip. Sarcasm noted. Do they slip like that, Ed? Do they come into the thread, think "oh hey, let's say something nice and innocuous like "let's help the town power roles find the scum", then accidentally slip in the word "out" ... why, because they're just SO focused on finding town power roles that they can't help themselves? "Help out" as "help" is completely normal English. Regardless of Mahaloth's alignment, it is by far more likely that he meant it that way than that he did such a bizarre thing. But accepting "help out" to mean the obvious thing doesn't paint Mahaloth as scummy, does it? In promoting this as a plausible theory, you're doing essentially the same thing as the person who jumps on an ambiguously PIS-ish statement as suspicious, then makes a big show of "well I could see the innocent interpretation, but just look at that PIS ..." Those people are so often scum. I've seen enough slips from Scum on Day 1 to know that almost anything is possible. Read the post again imagining that it's Scum talking with one another in the Scum thread. You wouldn't have to change a word. Now, am I saying that's what happened? not necessarily. Am I ruling out a slip like that or even a Freudian slip of some sort? No, I'm not.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 10:55:52 GMT -5
quick question sach what is your opinon on no strategy Nights? From a game design perspective, I believe no-strategy nights is more fair to scum. Allowing Night Strategy introduces the just-before-Dawn claim loophole that allows a Town Power to claim and post information to hedge his bet against possible night kill while still having a plausible shot at living and gaining another action from the Night in question. For game design, I think it is sucky. For game play, Night Strategy generally benefits Town. However, I'm not talking about Nights in general. We are talking about Night Zero. The benefit of Night Strategy is clearly the ability to claim just before dawn. During Night Zero, this benefit does not apply. My opinions about Night Zero apply to Night Zero. Do not apply these thoughts to the rest of the game. I specifically told you that any discussion you would like to have during Night Zero can occur during Day One. How you twist and interpret that as being against all discussion is your problem.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Nov 24, 2010 11:01:08 GMT -5
I'm quite familiar with the phrase "help out", and in any context other than Mafia that would have been the first (and probably only) interpretation to come to mind. But in this forum, the word "out" has a specific connotation, such that the first (and only) interpretation that came to mind when I read Mahaloth's post was the "bad" one.
But I think the only thing that points out is the fact that I (along with many others) get so hung up in trying to catch others making slips that we fail to consider alternate explanations, even when those alternatives make a lot more sense.
As I said earlier, my reaction to reading the post was "why the hell is Mahaloth saying he wants to out Town Power roles?!? that's suicide!" I figured there must be some other explanation, because nobody would make that big of a mistake, but it never occurred to me that my interpretation of the post was incorrect. Once it was pointed out that "help out" has a different meaning, it became perfectly clear in my mind what Mahaloth actually meant, and I'm no longer concerned about it.
Of course, if he turns out to be Scum I'm going to feel like a complete idiot, but I'm used to that by now.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Nov 24, 2010 11:06:11 GMT -5
So far, sachertorte and Pleonast have been leading the "let's keep quiet on Night 0" contingent.
So far, sachertorte and Pleonast are the only two players to have made any sort of claim (Pleonast claiming vanilla and sachertorte claiming to have a Major Arcana identity).
The above statements do not seem consistent to me.
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Post by harmless little bunny on Nov 24, 2010 11:17:22 GMT -5
There is a strong difference between what people want and hope for versus the hard reality of truth. While its nice for politicians to rail about the importance of education, the reality is education isn't a simple thing to fix. Similarly, it's nice to put out vague platitudes about how discussing things will 'help town powers hone in on scum,' the reality is this notion is severely less helpful to Town than it is to scum. Oh, if that's the case we should just not talk the whole entire game and just vote blindly until the bitter end. That way we won't help the scum more than town by discussing things. /sarcasm
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 11:25:59 GMT -5
So far, sachertorte and Pleonast have been leading the "let's keep quiet on Night 0" contingent. Sigh. I'm not leading the idea. I simply think it is a valid one. Why must everything be so black and white. Radio silence is a valid strategy for Night One. I have stated so and defended the notion. Nowhere have I stated that I feel the need to adopt this strategy (Somewhere back there you can find my post where I state it is a valid point of view and I agree with it except for the fact that its boring). Others questioned it and I explained the reasoning for the strategy. I suppose I understand where the confusion comes from since defending an idea is de facto supporting it. But let's try and be a bit more open-minded shall we? Further points: I believe Pleonast is perfectly willing to lie about her vanilla claim. I'm not going to go digging around for it, but I think she has stated such in the past somewhere. I don't agree with Pleonast on this point, but I do believe it is quite plausible that Pleonast is a power role and decided to fake claim vanilla. Pleonast could have a power role that is confirmable in some way. Let us hypothesize that Pleonast has some sort of role that will allow him to objectively demonstrate his alignment (Town) to us. I don't doubt for a minute that Pleonast would happily lie and false claim vanilla. Is this a good idea or bad? It's debatable. We could get into a whole discussion about the pros and cons of this, but we don't need to.. My belief is that nearly everyone has a Major Arcana Role. In stating so, I imply that I possess a Major Arcana Role. If I'm wrong, well... thems the breaks. If I'm right, I haven't revealed anything of significance. Your futile attempt to paint my actions as contradictory are duly noted. (1) I have no qualms about discussing the game during Night Zero. (2) I also view the strategy of radio silence as a valid strategy. In other words, I found all the nattering about the benefits of non-discussion irksome. There is a valid motivation for silence -- even if I myself don't subscribe to it.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 11:27:12 GMT -5
Oh, if that's the case we should just not talk the whole entire game and just vote blindly until the bitter end. That way we won't help the scum more than town by discussing things. /sarcasm I so want to stab you right now. Reading comprehension. Learn it, love it. Fucking use it.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 24, 2010 11:29:58 GMT -5
So far, sachertorte and Pleonast have been leading the "let's keep quiet on Night 0" contingent. So far, sachertorte and Pleonast are the only two players to have made any sort of claim (Pleonast claiming vanilla and sachertorte claiming to have a Major Arcana identity). The above statements do not seem consistent to me. Speaking for myself, I don't see any inconsistency. I've already stated I'm vanilla. I have no information to slip.
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