|
Post by harmless little bunny on Nov 24, 2010 11:35:30 GMT -5
I should have read the whole thread before I posted I understand your argument now sachWith the timing of the lynch and the ability to use Night One actions, the value of discussion during Night One is less than the value of discussion during any day. I still think that the value outweighs the risks and I still think it will be beneficial to us to discuss during the night, but I do agree that it is slightly less beneficial than normal daytime discussion.
|
|
|
Post by harmless little bunny on Nov 24, 2010 11:37:23 GMT -5
wow, you finished two long messages in the time it took me to post that one. I'm really slow.
|
|
|
Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 11:45:23 GMT -5
Radio silence is a valid strategy for Night One. <snipped> i am going to assume you mean Night zero. since i don't think we have a choice on future Nights and that seems to be what you are on about. typing and preview skills. learn them. love them. fucking use them.
|
|
|
Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 11:51:50 GMT -5
quick question sach what is your opinon on no strategy Nights? From a game design perspective, I believe no-strategy nights is more fair to scum. Allowing Night Strategy introduces the just-before-Dawn claim loophole that allows a Town Power to claim and post information to hedge his bet against possible night kill while still having a plausible shot at living and gaining another action from the Night in question. For game design, I think it is sucky. For game play, Night Strategy generally benefits Town. However, I'm not talking about Nights in general. We are talking about Night Zero. The benefit of Night Strategy is clearly the ability to claim just before dawn. During Night Zero, this benefit does not apply. <snipped> and i guess we are going to have to agree to disagree (imagine that). i just don't see the distinction between being able to claim on Night *insert number* as opposed to Night 0. and for goodness sakes i am not suggesting that anyone claim anything. and i don't know that i have ever seen that someone has ever claimed anything as a result of strategy discussion that occurs at Night. unless perhaps it is a Day action.
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Merestil Haye on Nov 24, 2010 12:02:53 GMT -5
I'm living in bizarro world at the mment. I was sure I'd replied to this thread already, but apparently not.
Confirm receipt of PM.
I've been thinking about the Night Zero strategy discussion. Now, normally I'm a conservative player, and I instinctively sided with the "whatever we can say Tonight can be said after Dawn" argument.
The trouble is, it's wrong.
There is, to my mind, a very good chance that killing powers can be used this Night. That is, a small but significant number of players are going to wind up dead come Dawn. Therefore, this Night is the only chance those players will have of contributing to the game.
Since none of us know whether we will be alive to say things come Dawn, we should take the one certain chance of contributing.
On "help out."
Anyone who believes that this is a player saying he wants to take actions aimed at flushing Town power roles into the open is being just a little silly. Quite apart from the common meaning of the phrase (to render assistance), openly saying (or implying) that one wishes to lure power roles into the open would tend to result in the speaker getting lynched, and thereby weakening the position of whatever team the player is on.
Given the common English usage, and that the post in question does not really read as if it was intended to be posted on a private board open only to the Mafia, I conclude that the phrase was used innocently. (I would conclude that even if Maha was a Mafiate, quite frankly.)
|
|
|
Post by special on Nov 24, 2010 12:24:27 GMT -5
I'm quite familiar with the phrase "help out", and in any context other than Mafia that would have been the first (and probably only) interpretation to come to mind. But in this forum, the word "out" has a specific connotation, such that the first (and only) interpretation that came to mind when I read Mahaloth's post was the "bad" one. But I think the only thing that points out is the fact that I (along with many others) get so hung up in trying to catch others making slips that we fail to consider alternate explanations, even when those alternatives make a lot more sense. As I said earlier, my reaction to reading the post was "why the hell is Mahaloth saying he wants to out Town Power roles?!? that's suicide!" I figured there must be some other explanation, because nobody would make that big of a mistake, but it never occurred to me that my interpretation of the post was incorrect. Once it was pointed out that "help out" has a different meaning, it became perfectly clear in my mind what Mahaloth actually meant, and I'm no longer concerned about it. Of course, if he turns out to be Scum I'm going to feel like a complete idiot, but I'm used to that by now. So, you didn't see any other possible meaning for the phrase until it was pointed out? really? Even though you knew your interpetation was wrong?
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 12:58:57 GMT -5
Therefore, this Night is the only chance those players will have of contributing to the game. Since none of us know whether we will be alive to say things come Dawn, we should take the one certain chance of contributing. This is what I mean by empty statements. While its nice to posit that people can contribute something of value, the reality is there isn't anything of the sort. What is this contribution going to look like? The reality is no one is in a situation where they need to speak up or we will have lost something important forever.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 13:22:51 GMT -5
and i guess we are going to have to agree to disagree (imagine that). That is my entire point! Not everyone has to look at Night Zero the same way. My point is that 'radio silence' has a rational basis, which I then explained. I'm not saying you have to implement it, just that you should understand it. The difference is in your statement itself. You yourself are keenly aware that claiming this Night is counter-productive. That in and of itself encapsulates the severe difference between Night Zero and other Nights (if strategy were allowed). I don't understand this statement. The point of a Town Power claim during night has nothing to do with strategy discussion... it's all about timing: getting the claim out when scum have hopefully committed to killing someone else, but also getting the info out just incase the town player is about to die.
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Merestil Haye on Nov 24, 2010 13:40:23 GMT -5
Therefore, this Night is the only chance those players will have of contributing to the game. Since none of us know whether we will be alive to say things come Dawn, we should take the one certain chance of contributing. This is what I mean by empty statements. While its nice to posit that people can contribute something of value, the reality is there isn't anything of the sort. What is this contribution going to look like? Who knows and, quite frankly, who cares? I've been in the situation of being killed out on Night 0, and it is (not to put too fine a point on it) unfun. You don't get to participate. You're cut off before you can even start. If someone wants to play this game, they need to consider that this may be their only chance. Or take the risk of being KO'd without getting to make a single substantive contribution.
|
|
|
Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 13:44:43 GMT -5
I don't understand this statement. The point of a Town Power claim during night has nothing to do with strategy discussion... it's all about timing: getting the claim out when scum have hopefully committed to killing someone else, but also getting the info out just incase the town player is about to die. <snipped> i understand your point about the threat of a lynch being the big stick that town wields. and that is not available to town during Night. but i also believe that strategy discussion, crap any discussion, at any time is beneficial to town. i think it was renata who basically posted that we should treat this as a long as Day 1 that just happens to have Night actions sprinkled in about midway. suppose, for example that we are on Day 3 and the mods say that for this one time only all Night actions will be available until half way through. would you then recommend watching paint dry until such time that the deadline had passed? and your point about timing of Night claims in a strategy thread just kind of flew over my head. i have never seen a game where a town power role said, fug it i am worried about a NK and therefore better claim. shoot since traditional roles (and i know we have gotten exotic over the years) don't get a resolution to their actions until the following Day what in the world are they going to divulge at the end of Night that they wouldn't have at the end of the Day. matter of fact it would seem like they would want to divulge earlier so that if there were any protection wandering around it might be available rather than already being committed elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 13:50:08 GMT -5
I've been in the situation of being killed out on Night 0, and it is (not to put too fine a point on it) unfun. You don't get to participate. You're cut off before you can even start. This I agree with. In fact, my main objection to radio silence is the fact that it is boring. Slightly more disagreement here. I suppose if someone thinks they are contributing something important then okey-dokey, but my feeling is this idea of contribution is overstated. If I die this Night my contribution to the game will be zilch, no matter what I do this Night. The most salient impact will be the role reveal itself, any Night posts will not affect the game. But I agree that in terms of playing for enjoyment, posting up a storm is certainly in play.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 14:06:50 GMT -5
but i also believe that strategy discussion, crap any discussion, at any time is beneficial to town. Fine. That's what you believe. Simply because you believe it doesn't mean I have to think the same way as you. You ask why I think silence is a viable strategy and I told you. While I would not necessarily try and enforce silence (again BORING), doing so is a viable strategy. Why is it so hard to accept that different playing conditions allow for different strategy? I reject your lack of observation as proof. Quite frankly, you're being silly. Obviously a Cop is going to want to claim at some point right? Furthermore, in the condition where Night Strategy is allowed, a cop claim just before Dawn is nearly always optimal. The only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are (1) Cop to avoid lynch and (2) Endgame where found scum is likely the last one. Let's say you are the Cop. You have a few investigations and it's time to share that information with the rest of town. When should you do this? You could claim during the Day, but why? Maybe you investigated scum (that would be another good reason) but what if all you have are Town investigations to report? Why not wait until Night since night strategy is allowed. The benefits of waiting are huge! You can post all the information you would have during the Day, but then also have the possibility of surviving the night (by claiming just moments before Dawn) and getting one more investigation before the scum can target you for death. At worst scum kills you anyway, but then you will have gotten all your info out before you died! If you had claimed during the Day then you would be exposed to NK right away. Peeker, you just don't get it. They are divulging the same information, but at a time that is optimal for avoiding getting killed during the Night. Fine. Exception (3) there is a doc floating about. Bottom line: Night Strategy allows a cop claim to game the timing of Dawn to his advantage. Will it always be applicable? No. But the opportunity is there and is an advantage.
|
|
|
Post by Suburban Plankton on Nov 24, 2010 14:12:00 GMT -5
I'm quite familiar with the phrase "help out", and in any context other than Mafia that would have been the first (and probably only) interpretation to come to mind. But in this forum, the word "out" has a specific connotation, such that the first (and only) interpretation that came to mind when I read Mahaloth's post was the "bad" one. But I think the only thing that points out is the fact that I (along with many others) get so hung up in trying to catch others making slips that we fail to consider alternate explanations, even when those alternatives make a lot more sense. As I said earlier, my reaction to reading the post was "why the hell is Mahaloth saying he wants to out Town Power roles?!? that's suicide!" I figured there must be some other explanation, because nobody would make that big of a mistake, but it never occurred to me that my interpretation of the post was incorrect. Once it was pointed out that "help out" has a different meaning, it became perfectly clear in my mind what Mahaloth actually meant, and I'm no longer concerned about it. Of course, if he turns out to be Scum I'm going to feel like a complete idiot, but I'm used to that by now. So, you didn't see any other possible meaning for the phrase until it was pointed out? really? Even though you knew your interpetation was wrong? I read it, thought "this seems wrong", read it again, and still couldn't figure out what was going on. Having quite a few non-game related things that needed doing, I decided to leave it at that for the time being, in hopes that something would transpire to make the situation clearer. And something did. I really didn't give it a lot of thought after my initial read. I figured I must be missing something, and if it didn't become clear in short order, I'd worry about it. By the time I came around again, the situation had been cleared up. If we had been farther along in the game, I would have had a bit more of a sense of urgency, but at the beginning if a week-long Night 0 I was content to let things play out before I got too concerned about things.
|
|
|
Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 24, 2010 14:13:58 GMT -5
I'm quite familiar with the phrase "help out", and in any context other than Mafia that would have been the first (and probably only) interpretation to come to mind. But in this forum, the word "out" has a specific connotation, such that the first (and only) interpretation that came to mind when I read Mahaloth's post was the "bad" one. That's interesting, because my immediate reaction to his post was the "good" interpretation, that of "to assist." In fact, I didn't even think of "out" as in "reveal" until the lot of you started talking about it. Speaking for myself, I don't see any inconsistency. I've already stated I'm vanilla. I have no information to slip. Oh, well, and of course since you've said you're vanilla we can all believe you because there's no way you'd be pre-emptively lying. Where's my roll-eyes smiley?
|
|
Total Ullz
Administrator
You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
Posts: 2,029
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Total Ullz on Nov 24, 2010 14:21:07 GMT -5
Bottom line: Night Strategy allows a cop claim to game the timing of Dawn to his advantage. Will it always be applicable? No. But the opportunity is there and is an advantage. I actually think this is one of the best arguments I've yet to see as to why a mod would allow Night strategy. Never really saw it like that.
|
|
|
Post by Pleonast on Nov 24, 2010 14:26:49 GMT -5
Speaking for myself, I don't see any inconsistency. I've already stated I'm vanilla. I have no information to slip. Oh, well, and of course since you've said you're vanilla we can all believe you because there's no way you'd be pre-emptively lying. Where's my roll-eyes smiley? Whether or not I'm lying and whether or not anyone believes me, I'm at least consistent. And you could make the same comment about anyone. Every player makes statements with the implicit assumptions that they are being truthful. What's the point in pointing out I could be lying? Bottom line: Night Strategy allows a cop claim to game the timing of Dawn to his advantage. Will it always be applicable? No. But the opportunity is there and is an advantage. I actually think this is one of the best arguments I've yet to see as to why a mod would allow Night strategy. Never really saw it like that. This is exactly why my Conspiracy games prohibit discussion at Night except for claims about powers or roles.
|
|
|
Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 14:31:40 GMT -5
[eeker, you just don't get it. They are divulging the same information, but at a time that is optimal for avoiding getting killed during the Night. <snipped> well in your hypothetical if i was a cop that thought that i had a chance of getting NK'ed i'd be claiming my ass off early as shit hoping for a protect not at the fracking end of the Night when the dice have been tossed. and putting a whole load of crudinsky on scum's plate. do we whack away and potentially get nothing? do we fire blindly risking another result? oh noes what do we do? having been in that situation it's kind of uncomfortable from a scum perspective. i like to make scum uncomfortable.
|
|
|
Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 24, 2010 14:33:34 GMT -5
You've put a claim out there, and are now saying we shouldn't be discussing anything until Dawn breaks. Including your claim. What's the point in NOT pointing out that your position is: a) perhaps not inconsistent, but certainly more beneficial to you personally than to Town, and b) potentially a lie?
And, really, what's the point in claiming vanilla on Night Zero (or at any time prior to a mass claim), when we apparently should be keeping our mouths shut in the hopes of...what, exactly? Town not slipping up? Someone not inadvertently outing themselves? How does your claiming forward Town's agenda, which is to find Scum? If you are vanilla, why would you so willfully decrease the pool for Scum (and, for that matter, any PFKs we might have running around) to Kill into?
I seem to recall that a few games back you started this "outing" yourself in the first game thread, but I don't recall your reasoning.
Also, and this is a completely-not game related question: have I had your gender wrong all this time? I thought you are a He, but several people have referred to you as she or her.
|
|
|
Post by Pleonast on Nov 24, 2010 14:52:57 GMT -5
You've put a claim out there, and are now saying we shouldn't be discussing anything until Dawn breaks. Including your claim. What's the point in NOT pointing out that your position is: a) perhaps not inconsistent, but certainly more beneficial to you personally than to Town, and b) potentially a lie? Part a) is certainly a valid topic, but that doesn't seem to be what you originally brought up. Part b) is pointless, since it can be made about any statement by any non-confirmed player. If you're interested, go back and read the previous games. I answered the "why" question truthfully. And you can also see why I'm not bothering to answer it now. It really doesn't matter to me--I prefer privacy to gender-correct pronouns.
|
|
|
Post by texcat on Nov 24, 2010 14:58:53 GMT -5
The scum will not make a mistake toNight and kill one of their own. The town power roles are the ones in need of information toNight. I am guessing that there will be more town actions than scum actions toNight. I think town benefits from talking more than scum does. I've always thought that scum made more slips than town, since they are the ones who are forced to lie and to keep up with their string of lies. And while I don't always vote to lynch the lurker, I might consider lynching those who think radio silence is a good strategy and are quiet because of it.
|
|
|
Post by Pleonast on Nov 24, 2010 15:07:07 GMT -5
And while I don't always vote to lynch the lurker, I might consider lynching those who think radio silence is a good strategy and are quiet because of it. But that's the thing. We don't get to lynch anyone ToNight.
|
|
|
Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 24, 2010 15:46:04 GMT -5
No, but we do get to lynch someone toMorrow. And the more conversation we have, the more information we have toward that lynch.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Nov 24, 2010 16:15:14 GMT -5
The town power roles are the ones in need of information toNight. I really should just drop it because getting frustrated over this relatively minor point is not healthy, but... Come on. What is it with these statements with no backing? Why do you believe Town Power Roles are in need of information? How does sketchy 'information' via random babbling empower Town Powers? What's so bad about Town Powers taking a random shot? I suppose you could argue your point from a Town Vig perspective which means information is critical, but that's pretty much the only case. Furthermore, I would argue that Night Zero (and Night One for that matter) are good candidates for A Town Vig to opt out of killing if possible. Anyway whatever, talk all you want. (BTW, stating we should be discussing things without actually discussing things is sort of empty. Also, threatening to vote for people for believing in a different strategy than you is myopic.) I've explicitly given examples of how additional information has little to no impact on Town Power Roles. To be precise, it is the Night Action itself that gives Town Power Roles the most information. I reject the notion that a Cop needs information at all. The Cop is getting information via Night Action!
|
|
|
Post by Pleonast on Nov 24, 2010 16:30:13 GMT -5
No, but we do get to lynch someone toMorrow. And the more conversation we have, the more information we have toward that lynch. Who's going to advocate lynching a player who remained quiet during Night Zero and then actively participates during Day One (and later Days)? If no one's going to advocate that, then what's the stick to make scum talk ToNight? And if scum have no incentive to talk, then why should town power roles talk and risk outing themselves ToNight?
|
|
Total Ullz
Administrator
You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
Posts: 2,029
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Total Ullz on Nov 24, 2010 16:30:24 GMT -5
The scum will not make a mistake toNight and kill one of their own. The town power roles are the ones in need of information toNight. I am guessing that there will be more town actions than scum actions toNight. Bolding is mine. I think this assumption is flawed. In several games lately we have seen a tendency to have lots of power roles on the scum-teams. So to assume that scum will "only" kill at Night seems a bit naive to me. If we have a heavy-vanilla setup then we might not have as many Town roles as you seem to assume. And I still agree that while we might talk about the radio silence it's: 1) dull 2) pointless (we are talking already) 3) kind of pointless to vote for someone being silent Night 0 - if the vote is only based on a disagreement in regards to that particular theory
|
|
|
Post by charr on Nov 24, 2010 18:04:05 GMT -5
Hey, just finished reading through some of the comments. peekercpa Why vote for me? If you were referring to the "Mass-Claim" comment, well, that was made BEFORE the PM was received, so I don't really see the relevance of it. Right now, the chances of me being Vanilla or Mafia are as equal as everyone else =w= ok charr here's the deal. it seems that this board has an unusual orientation. we always bemoan the fact that we need more newer folks to play. then invariably we lynch their asses right out of the gate. and other than burb (who is kind of becoming like a bad penny) we don't see as much of them again as we would like. so it's kind of a bad joke and my vote that does not count would certainly be moved elsewhere unless you have something you want to say to influence that differently which really won't matter for a bit anyways. how many games have you played and where, char? I don't know what you're getting at, or if you're just wondering, but this is actually my first time playing. And, yeah, thanks for explaining that? Much better than simply pulling my name out and citing "random.org".
|
|
|
Post by guiri on Nov 24, 2010 18:15:32 GMT -5
Catching up... I completely missed the interpretation of Mahaloth's "help out" as "expose", was quite confused for a short while there. quick question burb. bread or cornbread stuffing? I like both, but for Thanksgiving it has to be traditional bread stuffing. Breadcrumbing already? So, what's the terminology here? Light's the good guys. What do we call the bad guys, darks? Nefarious forces? SAHM? Any ideas MHaye? On the suggestion to stay quiet and wait for Dawn, while not being a prime example of participation, I'd rather get stuck in but then I read the wiki article and smiled: " The Castle of Crossed Destinies (Italian: Il castello dei destini incrociati) is a 1973 novel by Italo Calvino that details a meeting among travelers (with homage to Geoffrey Chaucer) who are inexplicably unable to speak after traveling through a forest. The characters in the novel recount their tales via Tarot cards, which are reconstructed by the narrator." And yet, town slaughtered scum in that game, and I think the mass claim discussion had something to do with that. (Having PFKs that were shooting for scum didn't hurt, but town lynched a few scum on their own too). Yeah, about that...
|
|
|
Post by peekercpa on Nov 24, 2010 19:04:59 GMT -5
If you're interested, go back and read the previous games. I answered the "why" question truthfully. And you can also see why I'm not bothering to answer it now. <snipped> hee hee. pleo cracks me up. one of the three possibilities are available. he is telling the truth. he is lying and is a town power role. he is not town. of the potential possibilities of his claim most favor scum. it's why i don't personally like it. having said that, pleo is a durn good player so i just kind of let it go as, meh.
|
|
|
Post by metallicsquink on Nov 24, 2010 19:41:30 GMT -5
The scum will not make a mistake toNight and kill one of their own. I don't understand this at all. Under what circumstances would the scum kill one of their own? The town power roles are the ones in need of information toNight. I am guessing that there will be more town actions than scum actions toNight. I don't understand this either. Either you know there aren't a lot of scum power roles and just slipped up, or you're making an assumption that because there are more town than scum, there must be more town power roles than scum power roles. But there really isn't any way for you to know that so I'm not sure why you would even say it. I think town benefits from talking more than scum does. I've always thought that scum made more slips than town, since they are the ones who are forced to lie and to keep up with their string of lies. Scum don't always have to lie to play well, unless you are counting lies of omission which leads into the issue of making a slip. And while I don't always vote to lynch the lurker, I might consider lynching those who think radio silence is a good strategy and are quiet because of it. Again, I think you along with many others are misinterpreting the issue of being quiet on Night 0. I can see both sides of the argument. I think we all also need to take into account that this is a holiday weekend and many people may be quiet because of that.
|
|
|
Post by Mahaloth on Nov 24, 2010 20:06:56 GMT -5
I second the question, tex.
What do you mean(paraphrasing) "scum won't make a mistake and kill their own"?
|
|