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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 19:06:20 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Nov 29, 2010 19:06:20 GMT -5
"Even the mighty must fall." This thought seems to echo through your mind as you descend from your chamber even as the sun rises. As you walk through the large doors of the spacious meeting hall, you see a crowd gathered in the middle, surrounding an oblong box of some sort. You approach, and see that this box is in fact a tomb. The man lying inside appears to have entered his grave in all the splendor of his trappings, crossed by a papal stave and wearing a lily-white mitre upon his head. You recognize him as a member of your group, sachertorte. Upon his chest is a card: V. The Hierophant. The Light weeps for the loss of one destined to be a Tracker.
The lord of the castle appears. "Who has done this thing?" No one replies. "This will not stand," he growls. "By the end of this Day, you will all present to me the perpetrator of this deed, and vengeance will be mine."
Sachertorte, Town Tracker, is dead.
Day One will end at 6pm CST on Saturday, December 4th.
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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 19:13:41 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Nov 29, 2010 19:13:41 GMT -5
Well that sucks...sorry sachertorte...
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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 19:24:23 GMT -5
Post by special on Nov 29, 2010 19:24:23 GMT -5
Looking at the player list, that most likely would have been my choice as well had I been Scum. Maybe a close call with story and Renata.
Since Dirx isn't playing.
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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 19:50:52 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Nov 29, 2010 19:50:52 GMT -5
Well that sucks...sorry sachertorte... Guilty conscience?
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 21:19:13 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Nov 29, 2010 21:19:13 GMT -5
Crap. That sucks. So essentially, scum get a head start with a Night Zero start of game. Bah!
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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 21:53:52 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 29, 2010 21:53:52 GMT -5
It seems that way for now. We just need to lynch scum slightly more quickly than usual.
A question on my mind is if any thought went into Sach's killing besides, he's an insightful player and death for scum on the town side?
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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 22:11:01 GMT -5
Post by special on Nov 29, 2010 22:11:01 GMT -5
It seems that way for now. We just need to lynch scum slightly more quickly than usual. A question on my mind is if any thought went into Sach's killing besides, he's an insightful player and death for scum on the town side? We shouldn't need to lynch more quickly. I would hope that a Night Start would have been taken into consideration for balance. It's also quite possible that sach's death was not caused by the Scum. Probably, perhaps, definite, no.
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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 22:19:48 GMT -5
Post by Mahaloth on Nov 29, 2010 22:19:48 GMT -5
Crap. That sucks. So essentially, scum get a head start with a Night Zero start of game. Bah! Probably, anyway. I think this is the first game I've been in where powers were available on Night Zero. I haven't even attempted to create a game like that. Does it suggest that the game leans Town slightly, so giving scum a kill(assuming that is what happened) is an attempt to even things out? Anyway, it is what it is. Moving on. Hey pleonast, why did you claim so quickly? We hadn't even discussed it.
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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 22:29:31 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Nov 29, 2010 22:29:31 GMT -5
Probably, anyway. I think this is the first game I've been in where powers were available on Night Zero. I haven't even attempted to create a game like that. Does it suggest that the game leans Town slightly, so giving scum a kill(assuming that is what happened) is an attempt to even things out? JSexton's pointing system gives 0 points to the Town for a Day One start, -1 points for a full Night Zero start like we had here, and 1.5 points for a Night Zero where cops can investigate but no other powers are allowed. So yes, that was a slight advantage for scum that we can probably safely assume has been balanced elsewhere in the setup. Wasn't sach the one who sort of gave away that his role came out of the Major Arcana? Perhaps that prompted the scum kill?
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Day One
Nov 29, 2010 23:52:38 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 29, 2010 23:52:38 GMT -5
I would hope so as well, Ed. What I meant was that since it was a power role that bit it, rather than a vanilla, we're hit slightly harder. I'm really not hugely worried though.
Maha, haven't you ever played with Pleonast before?
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Total Ullz
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You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 2:32:38 GMT -5
Post by Total Ullz on Nov 30, 2010 2:32:38 GMT -5
Wasn't sach the one who sort of gave away that his role came out of the Major Arcana? Perhaps that prompted the scum kill? I believe you must be thinking of this post: Assuming scum can kill this Night Zero is not a huge stretch. It might be correct, it might be incorrect, but as an assumption, I don't think it unreasonable. That is, I don't think the assumption itself indicates alignment one way or the other. I myself was leaning towards the expectation that someone would die. No so much that I would state it as brazenly as Pleonast, but I'm not as brazen as Pleonast in general. I've been doing some light reading on Wikipedia: There are 22 Major Arcana Cards and 56 Minor Arcana Cards. The 22 Major Arcana cards are without suits, while the 56 Minor Arcana cards are pretty much a standard playing deck with an extra "court card." (i.e., four suits, 2-10,A,K,Q,J, plus a Knight card). We have 26 players. Therefore there can not be a one-to-one correspondence between Major Arcana Cards and players. Hypothesis 1: Town are 22 Major Arcana cards and scum are 4 without cards. Rejected: A mass claim would break such a game. Conclusion: Scum also have Major Arcana Identities. (The above discussion implies that I have a Major Arcana identity, which I do. I assume almost everyone does. However, by the numbers probably not everyone does. If you don't, you should probably not speak up about it until an opportune time arises, which is most certainly not now.) Anyway, if the Major Arcana cards account for 22 identities, then we are missing 4. Hypothesis 2: There exist duplicates. - A quick scan of the Major Arcana cards shows that duplication doesn't make a whole lot of sense for most cards (For example, The Fool, not a Fool). Of the Major Arcana cards, the only one that makes sense to be duplicated is "The Lovers." Stretching a bit, one could argue that the non-specific "Strength," "Death" and "Temperance" are not necessarily restricted to one and only one. - I'm "meh" on this one. Hypothesis 3: Some players are Minor Arcana Cards - 4 suits fills out the roster - 4 court cards fill out the roster even better. (King, Queen, Knight, Page/Jack). - If I were designing a game, this is the route I'd take. Of course I'd probably stick to the 22 Major Arcana cards and have a 22 player game. Major Arcana: None (0 or 22) The Fool 1 The Magician / The Juggler 2 The High Priestess / The Popess 3 The Empress 4 The Emperor 5 The Hierophant / The Pope 6 The Lovers 7 The Chariot 8 or 11 Justice 9 The Hermit 10 Wheel of Fortune 11 or 8 Strength / Fortitude 12 The Hanged Man / The Traitor 13 Death 14 Temperance 15 The Devil 16 The Tower / Fire 17 The Star 18 The Moon 19 The Sun 20 Judgment / The Angel 21 The World Based on name alone, 12, 13 and 15 look the most "Bad." What I'm now wondering is if the color of the Day played on this fact with the phrase "The mighty" as in Major Cards... But then again I've seen to many games where we tend to read to much into color.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 4:22:15 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 30, 2010 4:22:15 GMT -5
Damn, sachertorte is already gone. Seems he's fated to spend significantly more time hanging out in spoiled threads than game threads.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 4:42:20 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Nov 30, 2010 4:42:20 GMT -5
Not a good start to the Day
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 10:04:09 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Nov 30, 2010 10:04:09 GMT -5
Ahem. Point of Order. Traditionally, I am killed during Night One. This was Night Zero, so that totally makes it different. Or not.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 10:08:05 GMT -5
Post by guiri on Nov 30, 2010 10:08:05 GMT -5
Usually, in my opinion, it reveals a to to the scum who frequently have cover roles. What's a "to to"? Crap. That sucks. So essentially, scum get a head start with a Night Zero start of game. Bah! Not a good start to the Day Really? I'm not buying all this doom and gloom about sachertorte's death or the terrible start to the Day. Sure, we've lost an excellent player but it's not exactly a surprise. Simply knowing that actions were allowed last Night meant we could expect at least one body at Dawn. While a dead scum or no kills would have been ideal, Night 0 resulting in a single death is not the worst thing that could have happened (assuming...). Add in the potential for a successful cop investigation and whatever other powers Town may have used successfully and I'm not sure how we can make judgements so early.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 10:11:25 GMT -5
Post by Mahaloth on Nov 30, 2010 10:11:25 GMT -5
Usually, in my opinion, it reveals a to to the scum who frequently have cover roles. What's a "to to"? a lot to.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 10:30:57 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Nov 30, 2010 10:30:57 GMT -5
Well that sucks...sorry sachertorte... Guilty conscience? Not in the slightest. Why should I have a guilty conscience?
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 11:36:19 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Nov 30, 2010 11:36:19 GMT -5
vote Suburban Planktonfor this statement: I think this statement This is not a normal Night Zero, someone will die. is assuming facts not in evidence. This struck me as a scummy statement. While the rules did not explicitly say whether or not scum would get a Night kill, it was a reasonable assumption given that powers could be used. I think townie players, who are generally concerned about Night kills, would be likely to assume that there would be a Night kill. Scum, however, would be more likely to note that their kill was not explicitly mentioned. I think Plankton's comment indicates scummy thinking. BTW, moderator, thanks for not locking the previous thread, it makes quoting so much easier!
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 12:16:16 GMT -5
Post by brewha on Nov 30, 2010 12:16:16 GMT -5
I agree that is sucks to lose town right away on day one, but it did seem likely that our day would start this way. We really didnt' have any info going in to day one, so I would suspect that any protection roles would be taking care of themselves.
What does suck is that we seem to have lost an investigator already. The bonus to town of night zero actions is that our power roles should be able to go into day one with some useful info. With our tracker dead, that's one less piece of info.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 12:20:50 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Nov 30, 2010 12:20:50 GMT -5
This struck me as a scummy statement. While the rules did not explicitly say whether or not scum would get a Night kill, it was a reasonable assumption given that powers could be used. I think townie players, who are generally concerned about Night kills, would be likely to assume that there would be a Night kill. Scum, however, would be more likely to note that their kill was not explicitly mentioned. I think Plankton's comment indicates scummy thinking. More like incomplete thinking. I wasn't the only person who originally interpreted the rules as meaning "Night 0 Actions" would mean something other than "Night 0 Kills" (see ed's post 76, and peeker's post 82). But hey, it's Day 1 and there's nothing else out there worth hanging a vote on, so go for it!
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 12:30:36 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Nov 30, 2010 12:30:36 GMT -5
Sorry to see you go sach.
Moving on to my semi traditional opening salvo: so, how about that mass claim idea that we talked about on Night 0? Who's for it, who's against it and why?
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 12:42:11 GMT -5
Post by brewha on Nov 30, 2010 12:42:11 GMT -5
I looked over the major arcana cards while contemplating a mass claim. The problem is (just like Sach already pointed out) we can't assume that there's one person to each major card. We also can't assume that scum aren't assigned one of those cards. We also can't assume that "evil sounding" cards are necessarily scum. We also can't assume that scum don't have cover roles anyway.
I just don't see how a mass claim would be a slam dunk for town - especially this early in the game. However, it does generate conversation - and that's exactly what we need right now.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 12:42:47 GMT -5
Post by special on Nov 30, 2010 12:42:47 GMT -5
Sorry to see you go sach. Moving on to my semi traditional opening salvo: so, how about that mass claim idea that we talked about on Night 0? Who's for it, who's against it and why? I'm against it, but not completely opposed. Pros: 1. It forces the Scum/3rd party into claiming a role that they won't be able to back down from later 2. It makes testing of claims a possibility, allowing us to maybe find some liars 3. It might allow for counterclaims which could help us find non-Town Cons: 1. It gives Scum a roadmap for killing/performing actions 2. It might compel a Town to lie in order to protect themselves (there are instances when this is a better choice, I've done it myself as an investigator) 3. While Town can be misled by fake claims resulting in an innacurate picture of the game-state, Scum are more likely to have a good grasp on pwoers/interactions. 4. Scum/3rd party could very easily have plausible cover roles. I'm sure there's more, but I'm still anti-Claim right now
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 13:09:04 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Nov 30, 2010 13:09:04 GMT -5
There are two types of mass claims to consider. Name claim: we each reveal which card we are. Power claim: we each reveal what powers (or none) we have. Players should be explicit which type of mass claim they're referring to.
Ed covered the pros and cons well. My opinion is that it's a little early for mass claims, but I'm not against it. The earlier we do the mass claim, the less flexibility scum will get with their false claims.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 13:11:18 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Nov 30, 2010 13:11:18 GMT -5
Forgot to add, my statements apply to both name and power mass claims.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 13:11:54 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Nov 30, 2010 13:11:54 GMT -5
I'm opposed because I'm not willing to trade the very large possibility that the moderator prepared for a mass claim, in which case we're screwing ourselves over to no benefit, for the very small chance that the moderator did not prepare for it. Preparing for a mass claim is just basic mafia. And in the cases where the mods did not prepare for it, they tend to fix the problem on the fly rather than let the game be broken wide open.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 13:24:05 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 30, 2010 13:24:05 GMT -5
Sorry to see you go sach. Moving on to my semi traditional opening salvo: so, how about that mass claim idea that we talked about on Night 0? Who's for it, who's against it and why? I am opposed, but I am always opposed to any type of mass claim before end-game because I don't see what good it does Town. The benefit in openly discussing strategy based on who has what role doesn't nearly offset the negatives given by Scum knowing who the juiciest targets are. And, yeah, yeah, WiFoM, but even that isn't enough. Also, this: I'm opposed because I'm not willing to trade the very large possibility that the moderator prepared for a mass claim, in which case we're screwing ourselves over to no benefit, for the very small chance that the moderator did not prepare for it. Preparing for a mass claim is just basic mafia. And in the cases where the mods did not prepare for it, they tend to fix the problem on the fly rather than let the game be broken wide open. And, finally, I don't see what good a Name Claim would do in this game, because -- as I said last Night before Thanksgiving with Family ate my online time -- the Tarot itself is subject to a fair amount of flexibility in interpretation. We don't even know what deck we are! Ryder-Waite? Chthulu? Cat People? Faeries? The LeVay-preferred deck the name of which is escaping me?
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 13:58:49 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Nov 30, 2010 13:58:49 GMT -5
I'm opposed because I'm not willing to trade the very large possibility that the moderator prepared for a mass claim, in which case we're screwing ourselves over to no benefit, for the very small chance that the moderator did not prepare for it. Preparing for a mass claim is just basic mafia. And in the cases where the mods did not prepare for it, they tend to fix the problem on the fly rather than let the game be broken wide open. I'm confused by what you're talking about. Or I understand and disagree. When I moderate, I prepare for a mass claim. That means that a mass claim will not substantially alter my game's balance. In this case, we can safely pursue a mass claim, because it doesn't give either side an unfair advantage. No one gets screwed if the moderator prepared for the mass claim. The real risk is that the moderator has not prepared for a mass claim and it break the game. And by break I mean that one faction gets a huge advantage or a huge penalty. If you think that the moderator may not have prepared, then one should be against a mass claim since it may hurt one's own faction.
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 14:13:43 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Nov 30, 2010 14:13:43 GMT -5
Personally my attitude as a moderator is that a mass claim should never break the game in favour of the Town. However I won't put much effort into ensuring that the Town cannot shoot themselves in the foot.
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Total Ullz
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Day One
Nov 30, 2010 14:31:59 GMT -5
Post by Total Ullz on Nov 30, 2010 14:31:59 GMT -5
I like mass claims later in games. When we have something working for us. If the (disclaimer: if we have them) masons claim or if the cop (disclaimer: if we have one) can reveal know townies and so on. This early in a game I 'd be very unsure what it would tell us if anything. This early in this game I really don't think it would be a good idea. Why? Because I had the pleasure of planning the Ragnarok-game on Giraffe with bufftabby and she knows her mafia-stuff. She also was the one that showed me how much could be done to make sure a mass claimed wouldn't break the game. She was the designer of the role Special Ed played, that was almost impossible to claim (town-role), yet the powers it possessed was almost non-existing. I might be bias - but I can't see bufftabby not setting things up that will make a mass claim very hard to gain anything from this early in the game. Also - I agree very much with this statement: Personally my attitude as a moderator is that a mass claim should never break the game in favour of the Town. However I won't put much effort into ensuring that the Town cannot shoot themselves in the foot.So at this point - I'd rather not see a mass claim. Later - I might
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