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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 16:02:51 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Dec 1, 2010 16:02:51 GMT -5
I'm kinda catching up and very busy but I'm seeing the gist of this conversation seems to revolve around claiming. I am fully in agreement that mass claims at this time are a bad idea.
Honestly I don't think mass claims should happen until day 3 at the earliest. Power roles have a way of outing themselves accidentally. The biggest downside to a mass claim is outing town power roles. Generally then I like to wait until a decent number of town power roles have been outed or killed before doing a mass claim. Doing so greatly mitigates the downsides of any mass claim.
There are exigent circumstances at times, however I have yet to see any in this game.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 17:50:57 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 1, 2010 17:50:57 GMT -5
I'm kinda catching up and very busy but I'm seeing the gist of this conversation seems to revolve around claiming. I am fully in agreement that mass claims at this time are a bad idea. Honestly I don't think mass claims should happen until day 3 at the earliest. Power roles have a way of outing themselves accidentally. The biggest downside to a mass claim is outing town power roles. Generally then I like to wait until a decent number of town power roles have been outed or killed before doing a mass claim. Doing so greatly mitigates the downsides of any mass claim. There are exigent circumstances at times, however I have yet to see any in this game. So, to paraphrase: 1. You want to delay the mass claim 2. The bad aspects of the mass claim will happen accidentally anyway. 3. Let's wait until all the bad things have happened, that way the bad things won't be because of the mass claim. Did I get it right?
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:05:30 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 1, 2010 18:05:30 GMT -5
In the case of a mass claim, we aren't trading numbers for information. We're trading information for information. It seems to me that this is far more valuable to scum than to town, because the scum have a lot more information that they can use to interpret the new information for their benefit. @peek, you said that I wasn't making sense to you. What didn't you follow or agree with? <snipped> see above. rysto phrases it ever so more eloquently than i. i read your whole post as being about the need for town to get information NOW. and while information is always going to be a good thing in the long run for town a total data dump with no basis of determining foundationally where the information is coming from or what it means to influence i think can at times be more confusing than informative. and if your original post was merely to poke the ant mound then i stand corrected.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:16:01 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 1, 2010 18:16:01 GMT -5
No one is advocating that the doctor claim right now. Instead, we are discussing whether or not all players should claim right now. You're right that a doctor claim by itself is not much help, but as one claim of many, it is very useful. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ On another topic, where are the votes? I see lots of discussions, but no votes made. No cases against other players, no pokes to encourage low participants. <snipped> so only vanillas should lead the mass claim parade? that's a good one pleo, you crack me up. and he is kind of right, however. vote story. he's on the sign up list, hasn't posted dick and heck it's kind of traditional anyways. right in the wheelhouse. btw, pleo where is your fracking vote, btw?
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:28:33 GMT -5
Post by guiri on Dec 1, 2010 18:28:33 GMT -5
btw, pleo where is your fracking vote, btw? I'm not pleo, but he voted suburban way back in post #17. I'll join in the poking of players who have yet to contribute and will Vote CIASfor lack of participation and the doom and gloom at the start of the Day. And an honorable mention goes to billmc, Renata and paranoia who, apart from story, are the only players who have yet to post toDay.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:29:16 GMT -5
Post by Renata on Dec 1, 2010 18:29:16 GMT -5
At first glance, a name claim doesn't seem like it would give much information to town or to scum. I am of the opinion that the names will not have any relation to role or faction. So it might be better to avoid that distraction. There's actually very good evidence that that's true -- Hierophant does not exactly call to mind "tracker". Name claims should not even be on the table. I'm against very early mass claims on simple "that's not the mafia game I signed up to play" grounds. I'm all for discussion of it, though. I know when I'm scum or non-town, every time the topic comes up I cringe, and I'm probably not the only one. Giving the scum indigestion should be a townie's highest calling.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:29:42 GMT -5
Post by Renata on Dec 1, 2010 18:29:42 GMT -5
Heehee, Guiri.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:30:34 GMT -5
Post by Renata on Dec 1, 2010 18:30:34 GMT -5
Also, I believe paranoia posted somewhere or other, though it may have been at the end of the Night Zero thread. I'm reading out of order as always.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:39:30 GMT -5
Post by Renata on Dec 1, 2010 18:39:30 GMT -5
I'm kinda catching up and very busy but I'm seeing the gist of this conversation seems to revolve around claiming. I am fully in agreement that mass claims at this time are a bad idea. Honestly I don't think mass claims should happen until day 3 at the earliest. Power roles have a way of outing themselves accidentally. The biggest downside to a mass claim is outing town power roles. Generally then I like to wait until a decent number of town power roles have been outed or killed before doing a mass claim. Doing so greatly mitigates the downsides of any mass claim. There are exigent circumstances at times, however I have yet to see any in this game. So, to paraphrase: 1. You want to delay the mass claim 2. The bad aspects of the mass claim will happen accidentally anyway. 3. Let's wait until all the bad things have happened, that way the bad things won't be because of the mass claim. Did I get it right? I should let MrBlockey speak for himself, but I don't think you did.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:53:01 GMT -5
Post by charr on Dec 1, 2010 18:53:01 GMT -5
<FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">Oh, huh? My name is not one of the major arcana cards. :/ Perhaps, perhaps not. If you're town, it reveals to everyone with a major arcana role that the minor are indeed in play. It will reveal even more as we lynch more people and see more deaths and get a look at the breakdown of town vs scum, major vs minor arcana, and power role vs vanilla. I'm a little surprised you were so cavalier with it. what sticky said. what was the fracking point? pleo freaking junior. Well, I don't want to be nailed or accused of in the case of a mass claim, and I think just revealing this to you early might breed more trust. However, yes, this is in full acknowledgement on the fact that there is no solid manner in which to prove my statement.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:53:25 GMT -5
Post by Renata on Dec 1, 2010 18:53:25 GMT -5
Seems like we can all agree that information is important. So how to get it? 1. Lynch 2. Claim (and risk giving away more information than we need) 3. Trust a power role to provide it Today we seem to agree we're not going to claim. Also it would be no good to have a power role claim to provide us with a snip of information from one single Night. So who do we lynch? I'm soooo in the peeker-camp and ready to take out a lurker. Not a non-participant, but a lurker. Not a low-posting player but a lurker. Someone here, posting, making no-contribution to the game, keeping the talk running but not really committing to this game. Okay. Who fits that criterion so far? In this game?
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 18:57:25 GMT -5
Post by charr on Dec 1, 2010 18:57:25 GMT -5
Seems like we can all agree that information is important. So how to get it? 1. Lynch 2. Claim (and risk giving away more information than we need) 3. Trust a power role to provide it Today we seem to agree we're not going to claim. Also it would be no good to have a power role claim to provide us with a snip of information from one single Night. So who do we lynch? I'm soooo in the peeker-camp and ready to take out a lurker. Not a non-participant, but a lurker. Not a low-posting player but a lurker. Someone here, posting, making no-contribution to the game, keeping the talk running but not really committing to this game. Why should we leave the lurkers alone for several days while we run the risk of mis-lynch vocal-townies make a single little mistake like using the word "debacle"? The last couple of games I've had the pleasure of following I've seen so many townies sticking their neck out and still they have been lynched. For stupid little mistakes. While the Scum were all saying "stay under the radar" and just keeping their posting to a minimal. We have to force Scum to participate - and the only way is to make sure they know the risk of not participating in the discussion. They might be lynched if they keep staying quiet. So my vote will be going out for someone not willing to run the risk of telling the rest of us what they think, where they'd like to see the game go, why they vote and so on. And if I run the risk of hitting a Town Power - I am really at a point where I don't care. I'd rather keep a Town vanilla alive if the player is posting, reading, contributing. It might be a bit of a personal thing - but I'm so fed up with having vocal players lynched because they played the game and posted. Oh, my - better pack away that soap box for now. Sorry. I'm fairly certain he's referring to me ',:B While it's true that I haven't made many worthwhile contributions yet, you have to account for the fact that I live in a different time zone, with different time constraints, so yeah, I have been making few posts of late, but I'll try to accelerate later? As to the value of the content of my posts, perhaps I could hide beneath my bumbling lack of experience for that one?
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 19:36:00 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Dec 1, 2010 19:36:00 GMT -5
I'm kinda catching up and very busy but I'm seeing the gist of this conversation seems to revolve around claiming. I am fully in agreement that mass claims at this time are a bad idea. Honestly I don't think mass claims should happen until day 3 at the earliest. Power roles have a way of outing themselves accidentally. The biggest downside to a mass claim is outing town power roles. Generally then I like to wait until a decent number of town power roles have been outed or killed before doing a mass claim. Doing so greatly mitigates the downsides of any mass claim. There are exigent circumstances at times, however I have yet to see any in this game. So, to paraphrase: 1. You want to delay the mass claim 2. The bad aspects of the mass claim will happen accidentally anyway. 3. Let's wait until all the bad things have happened, that way the bad things won't be because of the mass claim. Did I get it right? close eventually enough of the bad aspects of a mass claim will happen accidentally that it becomes a net gain to let the rest of them happen. That point is almost never reached day 1.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 20:01:54 GMT -5
Post by harmless little bunny on Dec 1, 2010 20:01:54 GMT -5
vote Pleonast
For a couple of reasons:
First, he claimed vanilla. I don't understand the claim. If he is being truthful then he is giving the scum a better chance to hit a power role by narrowing the targets. If he is a town power role he could just not claim and would have a pretty good chance of the scum killing somebody else.
Second, he hasn't answered when asked why he claimed.
Third, he has been advocating the mass claim pretty hard. By itself this doesn't warrant a vote; it's simply another viewpoint that is different from my own. I wouldn't vote him for this alone. However, it would make sense for scum to try and get the town to claim (especially the power roles) if they know that they already have a fake PM ready. This third one is less a reason for the vote and more just pointing out the possibility of scum strategy.
This vote is because there isn't much out there to vote on right now and I would like to hear his reasoning for the claim. This vote may change before the end of toDay pending the reply.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 20:14:48 GMT -5
Post by Mahaloth on Dec 1, 2010 20:14:48 GMT -5
Pleo has not answered my question about why he claimed when he did. He is either bluffing and is scum/3rd party, or he is narrowing the group down for the scum team by telling them he is vanilla. Why do that?
Vote Pleonast
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 20:15:27 GMT -5
Post by Mahaloth on Dec 1, 2010 20:15:27 GMT -5
Oh, crazypunker, nice timing!
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 22:29:57 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 1, 2010 22:29:57 GMT -5
Pleo has not answered my question about why he claimed when he did. He is either bluffing and is scum/3rd party, or he is narrowing the group down for the scum team by telling them he is vanilla. Why do that? I am massively not defending Pleo on this, but starting two or three games back -- maybe Marvel? -- he stated he was pretty much always going to be claiming right out of the gate, and gave his reasons then. He has refused to give them since. I don't see the benefit to Town in his choices, but I'm not sure it's enough reason to vote for him.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 22:30:50 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 1, 2010 22:30:50 GMT -5
First, he claimed vanilla. I don't understand the claim. If he is being truthful then he is giving the scum a better chance to hit a power role by narrowing the targets. If he is a town power role he could just not claim and would have a pretty good chance of the scum killing somebody else. You want to re-think this one, maybe? If he's been truthful he's Town. Why are you voting for him? If he's lying he's almost certainly scum, and scum knew that he wasn't a power role already. Just because you disagree with the strategy does not make the strategy scummy.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 22:32:11 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Dec 1, 2010 22:32:11 GMT -5
In the case of a mass claim, we aren't trading numbers for information. We're trading information for information. It seems to me that this is far more valuable to scum than to town, because the scum have a lot more information that they can use to interpret the new information for their benefit. @peek, you said that I wasn't making sense to you. What didn't you follow or agree with? <snipped> see above. rysto phrases it ever so more eloquently than i. i read your whole post as being about the need for town to get information NOW. and while information is always going to be a good thing in the long run for town a total data dump with no basis of determining foundationally where the information is coming from or what it means to influence i think can at times be more confusing than informative. and if your original post was merely to poke the ant mound then i stand corrected. Ah, got ya. The idea isn't that we need it NOW, but that we need it sooner rather than later because information is cheaper now than it will be later. It is cheaper because we have the numbers to absorb a lot of risk. Is the information we would get right exactly now going to be worth any risk at all...probably not. My big thing is trying to get people to understand that holding on to information for too long can be just as bad as giving it up too soon, maybe worse. And that too long comes a lot sooner than most people think. For example, I am almost always of the opinion that masons should all be out and claimed by Day 3, and cops as soon as they have 2 useful investigations under their belts. Sooner is better because it's in the early game that we have the numerical advantage so we want to leverage that power. It isn't a 1-1 trade as much as it is playing from a position of strength rather while we can. Because it is the nature of the game that, if town does nothing, it will always move from a position of strength to one of weakness. The only way to halt that move is to gather information. Some of that information comes in the form of a lynch. Some comes from power roles, but other information we have to get ourselves and the more we get and the faster we get it, the stronger we will be as our numbers dwindle. Want me to go into why scum don't need to fish for my next trick? Ok, now I need to read posts that aren't talking directly to me. I am being self centered.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 23:44:17 GMT -5
Post by harmless little bunny on Dec 1, 2010 23:44:17 GMT -5
First, he claimed vanilla. I don't understand the claim. If he is being truthful then he is giving the scum a better chance to hit a power role by narrowing the targets. If he is a town power role he could just not claim and would have a pretty good chance of the scum killing somebody else. You want to re-think this one, maybe? If he's been truthful he's Town. Why are you voting for him? If he's lying he's almost certainly scum, and scum knew that he wasn't a power role already. Just because you disagree with the strategy does not make the strategy scummy. I should have explained better. It's true that if he is being truthful then he is town. I don't think he is being truthful because I don't believe a vanilla town would claim right away. It doesn't help town for the reasons I've stated.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 23:50:59 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 1, 2010 23:50:59 GMT -5
NAF is just a pile of power policy this game, which is not necessarily different from any other game, but while the policies sound nice an comfy in theory, in reality you have cops that end up investigating people who go and get themselves killed the same night (and therefor never reach the '2 useful' threshold), and masons that go on vacation before they have a desire or need to claim.
Speaking personally, some of the most engaging games and 'epic win' moments for me as Town have come from zig-ing where consensus or popular policy prescribes zag-ing.
And that's why I'm usually willing to wait a while for mass claims and give the Town roles security-through-obscurity and the freedom to do their thing for as long as possible. Assuming there is a healthy amount of discussion going on, and pressure is actually applied to those who aren't participating (two big assumptions), that is my favored way to play whether I'm a Town Vanilla or Town Power.
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Day One
Dec 1, 2010 23:53:15 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 1, 2010 23:53:15 GMT -5
You want to re-think this one, maybe? If he's been truthful he's Town. Why are you voting for him? If he's lying he's almost certainly scum, and scum knew that he wasn't a power role already. Just because you disagree with the strategy does not make the strategy scummy. I should have explained better. It's true that if he is being truthful then he is town. I don't think he is being truthful because I don't believe a vanilla town would claim right away. It doesn't help town for the reasons I've stated. If memory* serves, Pleo has done this a few times, and at least one of those times he's been town. And I believe his strategy is that he's ended up lynched early and often when he does not claim right away. *Disclaimer - my memory is for shit, and it would be nice if he'd just explain his reasons himself.
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Post by bufftabby on Dec 2, 2010 0:34:25 GMT -5
Vote Count pleonast (2): crazypunker [103], mahaloth [104] suburban plankton (1): pleonast [17] storyteller (1): peekercpa [93] catinasuit (1): guiri [94]
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Post by guiri on Dec 2, 2010 7:27:38 GMT -5
Pleo has not answered my question about why he claimed when he did. He is either bluffing and is scum/3rd party, or he is narrowing the group down for the scum team by telling them he is vanilla. Why do that? Vote Pleonast /bleached. I may need to fine-tune my scumdar but this vote pings me. As has been mentioned by Pleo himself and others, an early unforced claim has become his standard operating procedure and I believe he usually asks Town to just ignore the claim. Annoying? Sure. Worth a vote? Maybe it's a step above voting a lurker or non-participant but I don't think Mahaloth's vote was just intended to prod. Oh, crazypunker, nice timing! Despite this above post, I think this is an opportunistic second vote. Your vote came 13 minutes after crazypunker's - not exactly a simulpost. He is either bluffing and is scum/3rd party Pleo claimed vanilla without indicating his alignment - which may or may not have been intentional: Looks like I'm " vanilla by destiny" this game. You seem to have discarded the possibility that he is both telling the truth (to keep up appearances, for example) and is scum. or he is narrowing the group down for the scum team by telling them he is vanilla. If this is the case, is it still worth a vote? Unvote CIASVote Mahaloth
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Post by Rysto on Dec 2, 2010 8:12:37 GMT -5
I should have explained better. It's true that if he is being truthful then he is town. I don't think he is being truthful because I don't believe a vanilla town would claim right away. It doesn't help town for the reasons I've stated. If he is scum, has this claim helped him?
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Post by Mahaloth on Dec 2, 2010 8:26:20 GMT -5
Great. I vote early and I attract a vote. Well, I guess I understand. It is a Day One vote and I'll admit it is hard to get a read on people. For now, though, my vote is going to stand.
See, if Pleo comes in and explains his early claim.....uh, answers my question from awhile ago, I'll gladly consider his answer. I want to point out that it was me that gave him ample time(twice) to answer it.
It's his ignoring my questioning of his claim that is scummy as well, folks. Clearly he has read my question twice and has ignored it. I don't think he gets a free pass just because he asked Town to ignore his early claims. Why would he?
I kind of do see everyone's point of view on it, but I don't believe his claim and it is Day One. For now, my problem is that I just don't see anyone else that is pinging me as scum as much as him.
I think he made a ballsy move to claim vanilla on the opening Night Zero and I'm calling him on his bluff. If someone does something I think is more suspicious, I'll happily switch my vote.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 2, 2010 8:44:50 GMT -5
Mahaloth, you don't seem to be listening when people have told you that Pleonast has done this before. As Town. Like it or not, this is what he does.
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Post by peekercpa on Dec 2, 2010 9:18:54 GMT -5
Mahaloth, you don't seem to be listening when people have told you that Pleonast has done this before. As Town. Like it or not, this is what he does. i think, think being the operative word, that he has also done it as scum.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 2, 2010 9:20:05 GMT -5
<enters room, sniffs the air>
Ah. I love the smell of a mass claim discussion in the morning.
Quick hit thoughts before I get to serious discussion:
1. Pleonast just about literally always does this (claims early). I disagree with it in a strategic sense. He's tried the same approach in more games than I can count, and it has never, ever, ever worked or accrued any kind of benefit to his team (usually Town). If he is Town Vanilla, he has dramatically increased the chance that he himself will be mislynched while narrowing the pool in which power roles can hide. If he is a Town power role and is lying, he has guaranteed his own mislynch at some point down the line. If he is Scum or third party, he has drawn attention to himself that neither Scum nor third-party would typically want. Thus, this sort of early, unprompted claim makes no sense at all from either a Town or a non-Town perspective. I view it more as some kind of social experiment that Pleonast is attempting than as an actual game action. Null tell.
2. In another way, I... actually agree with Pleonast on the subject of risk-taking in general, if not on the mass claim in particular. Town is generally too conservative, in my experience, and too unwilling to try a tactic for fear that it will hurt Town. If the game is well-balanced, and I would bet that it is, a mass claim will neither unequivocally hurt nor unequivocally help us. It will change the nature of the game, helping in some ways while hurting in others. I am opposed to an early mass claim, but mostly just because the kind of game that would result from such a thing is less fun for me.
3. I do not like the two votes on Pleonast, but I also don't know that I can call them Scummy in a meaningful way. I may change my mind on more substantive re-read.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 2, 2010 9:21:58 GMT -5
Oh, and, hi, peeker. I was almost sad to not see a vote for me from you as I went through the first three pages... made me feel like I was yesterday's news. Page 4 was cheering.
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