Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 13:40:04 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Dec 2, 2010 13:40:04 GMT -5
Can scum talk during Day in this game? Yes. Yes. See rule 2.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 13:52:36 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 2, 2010 13:52:36 GMT -5
As for me "leaning towards continuing our first bandwagon with a vote with no reasoning behind it": I gave three reasons why I was considering it. They're all there in the post you quoted. But in the end, I decided to go in a different direction for the moment. Your three reasons were: 1) If he's vanilla town, lynching him doesn't hurt us too badly. 2) Hey, maybe he's scum! 3) I disagree with his strategy. That is not reasoning. That is cover to set up a vote later on. My vote stands.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 14:08:02 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Dec 2, 2010 14:08:02 GMT -5
As for me "leaning towards continuing our first bandwagon with a vote with no reasoning behind it": I gave three reasons why I was considering it. They're all there in the post you quoted. But in the end, I decided to go in a different direction for the moment. Your three reasons were: 1) If he's vanilla town, lynching him doesn't hurt us too badly. 2) Hey, maybe he's scum! 3) I disagree with his strategy. That is not reasoning. That is cover to set up a vote later on. My vote stands. You got 2 out of 3 right. My reasons were 1) If he's vanilla town, lynching him doesn't hurt us too badly. 2) I hate his early claims and the fact that he continues to make them causes me to want him out of the game 3) He cast a very early vote on me that I felt had no basis The last is purely an OMGUS reaction, and the second one is based on personal feelings and has nothing to do with the game. Thus neither of those is a 'good reason' to base a lynch vote on. And the first reason is good only if there's nobody else that I have any reasonable suspicion of. Which is why I ultimately didn't cast a vote for him. Now, if I use these reasons as the basis for a future vote, then you'd have me dead to rights. But since I haven't done that, I don't see how that's a basis for your vote. But you apparently disagree, and I'm getting tired of discussing Pleonast, so I'm gonna go eat lunch.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 14:24:01 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 2, 2010 14:24:01 GMT -5
Little risk to town, but perhaps not little risk to scum. A mass name claim forces scum to commit to a name. That prevents them from making a more convenient claim in the future. It also gives a name investigator something to work against. I actually agree with Pleonast here in that a name claim in a game like this has nearly zero harm to Town. It probably won't harm Scum either, but it would lock them into the name part of their claim anyway. Let's actually look at the possibilities 1. Names mean nothing, and Scum is aware of that (because of their own names) a. Town claims their real names b. Scum claim their real names. Results: Nothing 2. Names mean nothing, yet Scum is unaware (idiots, I say!) a. Town claim their real names b. Some Scum claim fake names Results: If there is a name investigator, there is a possibility they can catch a Scum lying. Otherwise, nothing 3. Names mean something and Scum are aware a. Town claim their real names b. Some Scum claim fake names Results: 1. Scum get hints as to who holds what, if any, powers 2. If there's a name investigator, there is a possibility that they can catch a Scum lying. Otherwise, nothing. 4. Names mean something and Scum are unaware a. Town claim their real names b. Scum claim their real names Results: 1. Scum might become aware of the meaning and then have hints as to who holds what, if any, power 2. Nothing
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 14:26:28 GMT -5
Post by BillMc on Dec 2, 2010 14:26:28 GMT -5
And an honorable mention goes to billmc, Renata and paranoia who, apart from story, are the only players who have yet to post toDay. An honorable mention - why thank you. My time is somewhat limited at the moment, between work travel I'm spending most of my time at my father's place as he just had a major surgery to remove a huge cancerous tumor. He's on the mend. Pleo's claim....well i would have been more surprised at Pleo not claiming. A bit of a null tell, but not a reason to string him up at the moment. From Sach's N0 post on the major/minor arcana, it is possible that since some of the cards have multiple names, those are used to make it up to 26 players. If could be that the major arcana are all power roles, and that is why sach was killed. Mass claim - if major arcana are powers, then a mass claim could be very damaging to town at this point. I'm generally not in favour of mass claims till around day 4 when we have enough information to subjectively judge the validity of claims.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 14:30:01 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 2, 2010 14:30:01 GMT -5
2. Names mean nothing, yet Scum is unaware (idiots, I say!) a. Town claim their real names b. Some Scum claim fake names Results: If there is a name investigator, there is a possibility they can catch a Scum lying. Otherwise, nothing If names mean nothing, a name investigator is useless and is unlikely to exist in this game.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 14:30:55 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 2, 2010 14:30:55 GMT -5
Bill -- glad to hear he's on the mend.
I will do my best to participate, but there's a bunch of meatspace stuff going on that may limit my ability to do so.
Also, as I was among those saying that Pleo does what Pleo does -- I'm not giving him a pass. Like others, I'm saying I consider it a null tell. I don't see how it does any good, any more than I see how a name claim or a mass claim (this early) does any good. But it is how Pleo plays. Just like I generally give Ulla a pass because she and I play very differently.
And yes, I tend to play conservatively. I fail to see how this is a problem, either.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 14:31:11 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Dec 2, 2010 14:31:11 GMT -5
Vote Count pleonast (2): crazypunker [103], mahaloth [104]
suburban plankton (2): pleonast [17], rysto [142]
mahaloth (1): guiri [113]
naf1138 (1): suburban plankton [133]
paranoia (1): peekercpa [143]
catinasuit (0): guiri [94-113]
storyteller (0): peekercpa [93-143]
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 14:39:56 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 2, 2010 14:39:56 GMT -5
I think that you want the [ s]tag, buff.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 16:15:10 GMT -5
Post by harmless little bunny on Dec 2, 2010 16:15:10 GMT -5
I should have explained better. It's true that if he is being truthful then he is town. I don't think he is being truthful because I don't believe a vanilla town would claim right away. It doesn't help town for the reasons I've stated. If he is scum, has this claim helped him? I guess that would depend on his role, wouldn't it?
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 16:43:22 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 2, 2010 16:43:22 GMT -5
I guess that would depend on his role, wouldn't it? Ok, help me out here, because I'm having a really hard time seeing this: what scum role could he have where this has helped him? And how is this instance distinguishable from the previous cases where has made a similar claim and actually been Town?
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 16:56:39 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 2, 2010 16:56:39 GMT -5
If he is in fact vanilla Scum, but has presented the information in such a way as to convince the rest of us he is vanilla Town, then it has helped him. Otherwise, I don't get it, either; as Scum, I generally want as little attention coming my way as possible.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 17:05:23 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 2, 2010 17:05:23 GMT -5
If he is in fact vanilla Scum, but has presented the information in such a way as to convince the rest of us he is vanilla Town, then it has helped him. I don't see how this works at all. Why is his statement "I am vanilla" more likely to be believed and interpreted as "I am vanilla town" if he is vanilla scum than if he is a scum with a power role? The only way I can see that working is if there is a lie detector role. And that's an absurd risk for Pleo to take on the extremely low chance that there might be a lie detector.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 17:14:11 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 2, 2010 17:14:11 GMT -5
Does the "scum would never do that" argument count as helping himself as scum?
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
Posts: 371
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 17:30:04 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Dec 2, 2010 17:30:04 GMT -5
Hey guys, I had my wisdom teeth out Tuesday morning and I've been pretty heavily medicated (yay) since. I'm still on the Percocets but more lucid this evening. I've been reading but not much has really stuck as you might imagine. Now I've gone back and re-read from the beginning and the main thing that sits wrong with me at this point is Rysto giving Pleo a complete free pass on his behavior. I know several people have expressed much the same sentiment, but Rysto seemed very flippant about it. This is the best I've got so far for a day one vote.
vote rysto
*disclaimer - if this post makes no sense, blame the Percs. I may not be as lucid as I feel.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 17:45:53 GMT -5
Post by metallicsquink on Dec 2, 2010 17:45:53 GMT -5
vote Pleonast
I don't have a problem with Pleo's claim per se but what I do have a problem with is his refusal to tell us why. If we are talking about getting more information to town, this behavior in no way helps town and has clearly caused a distraction (about which I'm sure the scum - of which me may be one - are very happy). And since he won't tell us why, I can only fall back on my own assumptions about why he would do it which is to try to (falsely) gain some town credibility.
[OOG] It's very likely I will not be back before the end of the Day since I am going out of town for the weekend. [/OOG]
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 17:49:01 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Dec 2, 2010 17:49:01 GMT -5
I think that you want the [ s]tag, buff. Thanks.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 17:58:40 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Dec 2, 2010 17:58:40 GMT -5
Vote Count pleonast (3): crazypunker [103], mahaloth [104], metallicsquink [165]
suburban plankton (2): pleonast [17], rysto [142]
mahaloth (1): guiri [113]
naf1138 (1): suburban plankton [133]
paranoia (1): peekercpa [143]
rysto (1): hockey monkey [164]
catinasuit (0): guiri [94-113]
storyteller (0): peekercpa [93-143]
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 18:06:30 GMT -5
Post by brewha on Dec 2, 2010 18:06:30 GMT -5
Hey guys, I had my wisdom teeth out Tuesday morning and I've been pretty heavily medicated (yay) since. I'm still on the Percocets but more lucid this evening. I've been reading but not much has really stuck as you might imagine. Now I've gone back and re-read from the beginning and the main thing that sits wrong with me at this point is Rysto giving Pleo a complete free pass on his behavior. I know several people have expressed much the same sentiment, but Rysto seemed very flippant about it. This is the best I've got so far for a day one vote. vote rysto*disclaimer - if this post makes no sense, blame the Percs. I may not be as lucid as I feel. The only thing about it that doesn't make sense is your signature. So, they sewed one on and cut it back off? As for you vote, I can see it. But, what are you suggesting? Rysto and Pleo are in cahoots? If that's the case, why not get on the Pleo bandwagon? That's one that seems to be going somewhere. I want to emphasize that I'm not defending Rysto or encouraging a Pleo vote at this point. I'm just wondering your reasoning.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 19:24:03 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 2, 2010 19:24:03 GMT -5
Grr. I fell into the same trap of trying to quote a Night 0 post and ended up posting in Night 0. What, you don't want someone to slip and help out our town power roles? No, I actually do not want to out our town power roles. Why do you? I think it would be better if we had as little in-game discussion as possible, so that our town power roles do not slip and out themselves. I'm going back to this statement from Night 0, quite early in the Misunderstanding Of Mahaloth, because (as I pointed out at the time) it puts a hypocritical spin on Pleo's early Vanilla claim combined with his assertion that he does not want to out the Town power roles. One of the consequences of a (truthful) early and unprompted vanilla town claim is decreasing the cover for the Town powers. There's no getting around that. A townie lying about being vanilla in an unprompted early claim, on the other hand, stretches the limits of "lying well" in the interests of the Town, which is one of those pesky policies where I tend to not be as conservative as other players. I think 'lynch all liars' can be stifling and limiting. I think careful, well-thought-out lies told by Town players can be a boon for Town. I just have a hard time seeing such a lie in Pleo's case as being careful, well-thought-out, or boonful. Therefor he's getting my vote. Vote: Pleo
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
Posts: 371
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Karma:
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 20:31:07 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Dec 2, 2010 20:31:07 GMT -5
Hey guys, I had my wisdom teeth out Tuesday morning and I've been pretty heavily medicated (yay) since. I'm still on the Percocets but more lucid this evening. I've been reading but not much has really stuck as you might imagine. Now I've gone back and re-read from the beginning and the main thing that sits wrong with me at this point is Rysto giving Pleo a complete free pass on his behavior. I know several people have expressed much the same sentiment, but Rysto seemed very flippant about it. This is the best I've got so far for a day one vote. vote rysto*disclaimer - if this post makes no sense, blame the Percs. I may not be as lucid as I feel. The only thing about it that doesn't make sense is your signature. So, they sewed one on and cut it back off? As for you vote, I can see it. But, what are you suggesting? Rysto and Pleo are in cahoots? If that's the case, why not get on the Pleo bandwagon? That's one that seems to be going somewhere. I want to emphasize that I'm not defending Rysto or encouraging a Pleo vote at this point. I'm just wondering your reasoning. Last game I had to change my gender to male because one player couldn't respond directly to females. I'm not suggesting they are in cahoots, but I suppose they could be. I just don't like Rysto's attitude toward the situation right now. It's all "Eh, whatever, it's just Pleo being Pleo." I just gotta question why he's not questioning more. I'm not against lynching Pleo either, but if he's telling the truth, it's a mislynch, if he's lying and he's a power role, it's a worse mislynch. If he's scum, then of course it would be a boon. I could see a scum Pleo using the ploy especially since he "always" does it and getting away with it. So why isn't Rysto, a good player, questioning it more than he has. Therefore my vote for him at this time.
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 20:42:17 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 2, 2010 20:42:17 GMT -5
For fuck's sake. Do I need to give you the definition of a null tell and how it relates to how one should vote?
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Day One
Dec 2, 2010 22:47:18 GMT -5
Post by texcat on Dec 2, 2010 22:47:18 GMT -5
p.s. here's hoping that paranoia is an alias for pinkies. I know paranoia from another site, and I am pretty sure that he is not pinkies and that he is new to this site.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 3, 2010 0:11:45 GMT -5
Despite sachertorte's unfortunate and early demise, it is still Day 1, and an annoying null tell is more justification than can often be found.
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Post by CatInASuit on Dec 3, 2010 4:17:30 GMT -5
Apologies all, due to the inclement weather I have been otherwise occupied. I'll try and catch up now.
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Post by CatInASuit on Dec 3, 2010 5:53:48 GMT -5
In no particular order: Game setup: 26 players, so expecting 5/6 scum, some PFKs and a load of town mixed between power role and vanilla. Names: I'm expecting a couple of non-tarot names to be included, as well as a mix of the Arcana cards. Just because it's bufftabby. Mass role claims: Not in favour of it, although the information is useful to the town, it also fills in the gaps for the scum. Another reason for a later role/name claim is that it forces the scum to prove what they did earlier in the game, should they claim a power role, which can be just as telling. Pleonast role claim: In some ways not surprising, but am curious as to why claim vanilla, but not give up a name to go with it? Care to explain, pleonast? If I said it feels more like a partial claim than anything else, as if something more interesting is hidden, than just plain vanilla. Yes, I know I'm not expecting names to be of much value, but claiming vanilla is almost a distraction from revealing anything else.
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Post by CatInASuit on Dec 3, 2010 6:26:51 GMT -5
#68 and #70 - good enough for guiri to post twice It is also true because as we approach EndGame, the value of many power roles decreases, all things being equal. Doctors have fewer protections to provide. Investigators have fewer investigations to conduct. Perhaps the case can be made that Roleblockers and Vigs have an increased value as the game progresses, but even so having been outed makes them more vulernable. This doesn't make much sense, most power roles become very important at Endgame. Docs have a greater chance of protecting the right person, investigators have a much smaller pool of players to look at. You want to re-think this one, maybe? If he's been truthful he's Town. Why are you voting for him? If he's lying he's almost certainly scum, and scum knew that he wasn't a power role already. Just because you disagree with the strategy does not make the strategy scummy. Hmm. If he is truthful, he is vanilla town. That I can understand. If his lying he is scum, and the scum knew he wasn't a power role already. I don't quite follow this argument. You say the scum knew he wasn't a power role already. I would like to ask how you know that the scum knew he wasn't a power role? oh and pending an answer: vote Rysto
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Post by Rysto on Dec 3, 2010 9:00:41 GMT -5
If his lying he is scum, and the scum knew he wasn't a power role already. I don't quite follow this argument. You say the scum knew he wasn't a power role already. I would like to ask how you know that the scum knew he wasn't a power role? I meant town power role there. Obviously, if Pleo is scum scum know that he isn't a town power role.
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Post by peekercpa on Dec 3, 2010 9:16:25 GMT -5
<FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">]If he is in fact vanilla Scum, but has presented the information in such a way as to convince the rest of us he is vanilla Town, then it has helped him. Otherwise, I don't get it, either; as Scum, I generally want as little attention coming my way as possible. Does the "scum would never do that" argument count as helping himself as scum? i just have to say that this is exactly what i was thinking rabid. as scum you work as a team. you want some folks under the radar and some kind of poking the ant mound. and this is what has always made pleo's behavior interesting to me. nothing really overt (oh, and pleo does this all the time). but subtle enough to poke the ant mound. but as niller town you also need to poke the ant mound just to try to find some nuggets of information. so by the powers invested in me that all is mafia i will safely conclude that pleo is either town, scum or third party.
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Post by peekercpa on Dec 3, 2010 9:23:11 GMT -5
...this behavior in no way helps town and has clearly caused a distraction (about which I'm sure the scum - of which me may be one - are very happy). <snipped and emphasis mine> ok, this cracked me up to no end. slip or typo. you decide. of course, if it is a slip your grammar has gotten to be as bad as mine. ;D
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