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Post by bufftabby on Dec 14, 2010 12:18:34 GMT -5
Living players stay out!
Remember folks, this is a spoiler-free zone!
I like exclamation points!
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Post by Rysto on Dec 14, 2010 12:32:58 GMT -5
First, I would like to note for the record that this was my twelfth consecutive game not being vanilla Town. Seeing as scum like killing me so much, I'm getting kind of sick of it.
I wasn't a big fan of having the survivor role because I felt it constrained me too much. I couldn't try too hard to hunt for scum because I seem to be a big enough scum target as it is. For example, Day Two I was fairly sure that Inner Stickler was scum, but I kept my mouth shut because I didn't want to attract scum attention. And then I stupidly attracted scum attention late in the Day by intentionally making a "slip" that made it appear that I did not have a power.
My case against Stickler is: a) His vote against me was terrible. Just awful. It passes casual inspection: he gives one reason(my defense of Pleo) and he cites Paranoia's summary as further evidence, but Paranoia had almost nothing to say about me and he gave no reasoning as to why my defence of Pleo showed scum motivation.
b) The vote against me really looked like a vote from scum would was unwilling to vote for the leading bandwagon.
c) He subtly encouraged the Pleo bandwagon to continue without contributing to it at all. MHaye called him on this and he flat-out denied that he had done so, which was complete bull.
d) He had absolutely nothing to say about me Day Two. Once there wasn't a bandwagon going my way he had no interest in me. His vote against me looks extremely opportunistic in this light.
I obviously have little to say about HM's claim in this unspoiled thread. I will say that she's made a very foolish mistake to claim third-party so early in the game. She's a prime target to confirm a Vig claim later in the game.
Also, if she truly needed me dead, and believed that I was searching for her, it was unwise to tip her hand by pursuing me so vigourously.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 14, 2010 13:25:26 GMT -5
Yes, the Maha lynch is very important. The most important piece of information the Town has right now. However, don't overlook the Pleonast lynch, either. You now know that the two leading candidates in that lynch were not scum, which can tell you an awful lot.
(I think that the scum made have made a strategic mistake in killing me so early because of this. Night kills advance the scum win condition but one thing that the scum never seem to take into account is the information that it gives away. Several scum were very nearly exposed in Cecil Pond because we killed players that gave away an awful lot of information)
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 14, 2010 14:05:50 GMT -5
I'm not spoiled and I have no information beyond my own alignment so I feel free to speculate. Survivor roles are hard to balance. Simply being alive at the end of the game is difficult. Putting an additional criteria on top of that makes it harder. If we take Monkey's role claim as true, the role is ridiculously harsh to win with. First, they must correctly investigate one specific player, then that player must die, and then they must survive to the end of the game. And what powers are given to help accomplish this? None, apparently, beyond a very limited investigative power. My conclusion is that the role claim is false in some way. They're hiding some power(s) or some alternate way to win.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 17, 2010 9:23:45 GMT -5
That was intentional. I wanted to pile up some votes early in hopes of convincing the scum that I might be lynched, so that they'd not kill me like they so like doing.
It might have worked if I wasn't an idiot...
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Post by Rysto on Dec 18, 2010 14:45:56 GMT -5
crazypunker:
Assuming facts not in evidence. I haven't liked crazypunker at all toDay and this is the capper. A townie punker should be far, far more suspicious of a claim of two survivors in a game.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 18, 2010 21:25:09 GMT -5
Yuck. I really, really don't like Scotsmen who don't reveal alignment upon surviving an attempted lynch. Even if they are town if they are lynched once they basically have to be lynched again, so rather than helping the town their power ends up costing them an extra half mislynch.
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Post by bufftabby on Dec 18, 2010 21:36:41 GMT -5
Sorry. I really really don't like roles that confirm anyone's alignment.
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Post by sachertorte on Dec 19, 2010 10:14:09 GMT -5
What don't you like about confirming roles?
The way I see it, confirming alignment is the point of the game. We have Detectives and Masons, which confirm alignments, so what in particular about scotsmen don't you like? I suppose I could accept not liking scotsmen, but then you would simply not use one.
My personal opinion is that nullifying lynches detracts interest in the game. It's like that chapter in an otherwise gripping book that makes you want to quit reading all together. There was Dr. Horrible where Pleonast could not be lynched. While not a matter of being unbalanced or anything like that, it really affected game play, interest and momentum. At least if something were revealed about crazypunker there would be non-zero movement in the game.
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Post by bufftabby on Dec 19, 2010 10:58:39 GMT -5
Personal preference, I suppose. I can't really comment more on the subject as it pertains to this game without entering spoiler territory. Seeing as how Scotsmen tend not to confirm alignment upon first lynch, I don't seem to be alone in this.
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 20, 2010 12:12:28 GMT -5
In my playbook, any player who survives a lynch must be lynched again if they are not Vig'd during the Night.
And Monkey needs to be Vig'd as well. If both of them survive the Night, there's either no Vig or the Vig is not thinking clearly.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Dec 20, 2010 14:36:29 GMT -5
In my playbook, any player who survives a lynch must be lynched again if they are not Vig'd during the Night. Ditto. See Super Mario Bros. Mafia where Sinjin played a scum scotsman. Idle was mod. I had a ping on her as scum, so as investigator I didn't bother investigating her since I was shooting for town confirmations. Eventually, the pool of unknowns was small, and I led a lynch against her. The first time was the Day that everyone's powers got scrambled (which revealed to me, as a temp mason, that Masons had an alternate win condition where they could steal the win form town). We also had two of the town confirmed vanillas turned into a scum. We used this to our advantage to lynch Sinjin and NK another unconfirmed (blockey). (The game was designed that if you met your win condition of the role you had on the topsy-turvy day, you could actually win as that role. However, if the game didn't end, all players, dead or alive, would revert back to their original role the beginning of the next Day.) Sinjin, who claimed scotsman the Day before during the mass claim, oddly enough, was detective that Day. Now I had spent the previous Day attacking Sinjin saying that as scotsman she had to be lynched. Twice. Because she (truthfully) said she didn't confirm upon death. Her argument was that I should investigate her and save us lynches if she's town. (Suspecting she's scum, I wasn't going to do that, because we'd still have to lynch her twice and I lose an investigation.) So back to topsy turvy day. We lynch Sinjin, she reveals expectedly as town investigator that Dusk. (She tried to bargain an investigation if we left her alive.) We night kill blockey, who shows up as town vanilla the next Dawn. But much to our surprise, Idle ruled that Sinjin reverting back to Scotsman at dawn allowed her back in the game as a now powerless former Scotsman (alignment still unconfirmed). At that point she and I went back and forth attacking each other for most of that Day, culminating in her second lynch. This time permanently. (And cookies, the last remaining scum, night killed me during what was probably the shortest Night in any game ever--it ended immediately after dusk--seeing as the only active powers remaining were mine and cookies and cookies had already submitted her kill target.) You can read my rants about non-confirming scotsman being an anti-town mechanism in that thread. I have also reprised those points in other games as both a player and non-player. In Smash Bros., I played a scotsman and my role did not explicitly say that I got confirmed upon first death. I told pedescribe to not activate my power on lynch because if town wants to get rid of me, they should find out who I am. Turns out I did confirmed upon death, so it wasn't an issue.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 20, 2010 23:08:41 GMT -5
Ouch. The godfather got vigged? That's brutal for scum.
paranoia looks pretty townie right now, given how hard NAF was pushing his lynch.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 20, 2010 23:42:30 GMT -5
Stickler:
I don't recall Stickler saying a word about NAF before now. It makes me hugely suspicious that now that NAF is dead and confirmed scum and IS is saying that he suspected him all along. Kinda, maybe. The wishy-washyness of this statement really sets off my scumdar.
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Post by BillMc on Dec 21, 2010 4:15:40 GMT -5
At least I had some excellent music in my final hours. Spoil me please.
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 21, 2010 10:10:59 GMT -5
Inner Stickler looks hugely suspicious, but I have to agree with storyteller. Why is crazypunker not being strung up immediately? It's almost suspicious how fast players are jumping on Stickler.
I didn't notice any strong indications that NAF was scum. I'm thinking it was not a Vig that got him. Unless there was some sort of redirection going on.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 21, 2010 15:25:42 GMT -5
I see the point about the Vig, but it's the best explanation I can see. The prospect of an SK deliberately not killing early in the game seems unlikely to me. I suppose that I of all people shouldn't dismiss the possibility of an SK being blocked several times early in the game, the chances against that are huge.
The "trap" mechanic is a possibility. I'd dismiss outright the idea that the Godfather would take the kill unnecessarily, but the scum may have been lured into a false sense of security with the Tracker being dead. If it was a trap, that would seem to imply that all scum other than the Godfather have active powers.
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Post by NAF1138 on Dec 21, 2010 15:49:43 GMT -5
I don't really want to be spoiled yet, but I would really love to know what killed me. Think you can help a guy out with a minor single spoiler Buff? ETA: it's gratifying to hear people are surprised that I was scum.
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 22, 2010 11:54:36 GMT -5
Basically, trying to second guess the mod is dumb. Vote based on actions, not what you think the mod has set up. Says the player with the unbelievable role claim.
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Post by NAF1138 on Dec 22, 2010 12:32:43 GMT -5
The problem with what Hockey said there is that, at least for me and I suspect for most, it is impossible not to think about those sorts of things. And if you are thinking it, as a townie, you should post it. Get all your thoughts out there because you never know what will trigger an idea in someone else.
Ignoring something just because it seems you are playing the mod not the players, is silly, because you are always going to be aware that the mod might have done something, or that a player could be falsely claiming. If mods want players to not metagame, they should create open setups. In a closed setup figuring out the mod is just as much a part of the game as anything else and it's wrong to ignore that aspect of the game in the name of playing the players actions.
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Post by sachertorte on Dec 22, 2010 13:58:49 GMT -5
ETA: it's gratifying to hear people are surprised that I was scum. I knew you were scum.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 22, 2010 14:04:49 GMT -5
The fact that Cookies forgot that Mahaloth was dead makes me lean Town on her, although the paranoid side of me says maybe that's exactly what she was looking for... There we go. Now I can say, "I knew it!" no matter what way she flips.
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Post by NAF1138 on Dec 22, 2010 14:15:20 GMT -5
ETA: it's gratifying to hear people are surprised that I was scum. I knew you were scum. You always do. Why do you think you didn't make it to Day 1?
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Post by bufftabby on Dec 22, 2010 17:28:56 GMT -5
It probably helps that sachertorte is spoiled.
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Post by NAF1138 on Dec 22, 2010 17:37:33 GMT -5
The lousy cheater.
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Post by BillMc on Dec 23, 2010 12:12:47 GMT -5
Well it's always safe to assume you are scum :-)
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Post by NAF1138 on Dec 23, 2010 13:00:22 GMT -5
Well it's always safe to assume you are scum :-) The odds really would be in your favor on that.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 23, 2010 13:22:53 GMT -5
SisC:
Hm. Makes me wonder if perhaps SisC set a trap on Bill last Night. I don't see a good reason to conclude at this point that the Godfather did take the kill, but I don't think that scum would make this mistake.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 28, 2010 11:29:09 GMT -5
TL:
Not necesarily. The godfather could be a red herring.
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Post by Rysto on Dec 30, 2010 23:33:23 GMT -5
Really?
This is why, when I'm playing, I flat out refuse to vote for somebody if the best reasoning against them I can come up with is, "their vote against me was scummy." I just cannot evaluate votes against me effectively.
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