Trepa Mayfield
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Does Not Follow Directions
The only kind of panda worth preserving.
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Feb 1, 2011 18:59:05 GMT -5
I've used Macs and PCs without problem. The only time I really have issues is when I try to boot a Windows OS on Mac hardware. Strange...
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Romola
Mome Rath
One of them saw two words of the joke and spent several weeks in hospital.
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Post by Romola on Feb 1, 2011 19:41:12 GMT -5
Hey ... I'm bicomputeracious ... I use Windows and Linux! Romola's vote on Bill does seem a little strange this early in the game. It may say more about her than him. Well, it says that I've played 2 Ullz games with Bill before, both with custom made PMs available, in both of which we were both Town and he never raised a peep in protest. As far as I know,it's a feature of her games. In this game, kidVermicious raised an objection in the confirmation thread and bill chimed in with it. I asked him in this thread if he had any particular experience which made him object now where he didn't before and he hasn't said so. This makes me think that maybe he saw KidV's objection and thought 'Ah, so he's Town. Wait, if I chime in, maybe people will assume I'm Town as well'. If Bill had come back and said 'well, i thought X's use of a mod written pm in X game did give an unfair advantage', I wouldn't have voted him. He might come back and explain more, in which case I might still unvote.
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Post by guiri on Feb 1, 2011 19:42:52 GMT -5
Confirming receipt of PM. I try to ignore unforced early VT claims. If the player is Town, it's a little WIFOM for scum and a null-tell for the rest of Town. If the player is non-Town, they'll be under the same scrutiny as anyone else. I'm not sure what to think of your vote, Romola; either Bill is telling the truth, or he's lying. If he's telling the truth, he's Town, and we need him. If he's lying, he'll be caught out eventually and we'll get rid of him. But in my experience both playing in and running games where someone's outed themselves at the get-go...it's a null tell, and not worth a vote. Romola's vote on Bill does seem a little strange this early in the game. It may say more about her than him. However Romola's vote isn't based on his claim at all:: Well, before we move on from that, I will vote. Bill, you haven't said why you need find custom made fake PM's an issue now, or whether you've mentioned your objections in previous games which had exactly the same function. It could be a way to get Town cred, objecting to a feature that some think gives an advantage to scum, thus leading people to think 'ah, so Bill's Town'. I see it as a no-tell with KidV, as I gather that he hasn't come across the feature before. Bill certainly has.
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Romola
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One of them saw two words of the joke and spent several weeks in hospital.
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Post by Romola on Feb 1, 2011 19:43:45 GMT -5
*bites. I have observed several games now and the whole "claim-right-out-of-the-gate" debate seems to be about as strong as the debate between Mac and PC users. And once again, those of us who are bicomputeral are vanished. Sigh. I'm not sure what to think of your vote, Romola; either Bill is telling the truth, or he's lying. If he's telling the truth, he's Town, and we need him. If he's lying, he'll be caught out eventually and we'll get rid of him. But in my experience both playing in and running games where someone's outed themselves at the get-go...it's a null tell, and not worth a vote. The vote isn't for the vanilla claim. It's for the newly found objection to custom made pm's and what Bill, if scum, might hope to achieve by that.
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Post by BobArrgh on Feb 1, 2011 19:49:00 GMT -5
I don't like sushi or sashimi. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Post by BobArrgh on Feb 1, 2011 19:51:40 GMT -5
I get it now, Romola. You do make a good point.
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Post by Renata on Feb 1, 2011 19:58:53 GMT -5
Hey ... I'm bicomputeracious ... I use Windows and Linux! Romola's vote on Bill does seem a little strange this early in the game. It may say more about her than him. Well, it says that I've played 2 Ullz games with Bill before, both with custom made PMs available, in both of which we were both Town and he never raised a peep in protest. As far as I know,it's a feature of her games. In this game, kidVermicious raised an objection in the confirmation thread and bill chimed in with it. I asked him in this thread if he had any particular experience which made him object now where he didn't before and he hasn't said so. This makes me think that maybe he saw KidV's objection and thought 'Ah, so he's Town. Wait, if I chime in, maybe people will assume I'm Town as well'. If Bill had come back and said 'well, i thought X's use of a mod written pm in X game did give an unfair advantage', I wouldn't have voted him. He might come back and explain more, in which case I might still unvote. Maybe maybe. If you look at the timing of the comments in the rules thread, it looks somewhat the other way around. KidV posted several hours prior to the time stamp on my role PM -- I am guessing based on that that he may not have had his own PM yet, making his objection a null tell. (If scum, he'd obviously have to follow up in the official thread, etc.) But Bill probably had PM in hand when he posted there, so for him we are talking either sincerely felt opinion or cynical manipulation. Given it wasn't even in the game thread itself (people may never even have noticed if KidV hadn't made an issue of it), I'm rather hoping it's not cynical manipulation, hence leaning town for emotional reasons. That said, I still don't understand why this is suddenly an issue now, and would like to hear what Bill wants to say about it. I don't have a problem with his reasoning for his vanilla claim, for the record.
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Romola
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One of them saw two words of the joke and spent several weeks in hospital.
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Post by Romola on Feb 1, 2011 20:11:58 GMT -5
I agree that it's a null tell with KidV btw. I also realised that I've been saying 'confirmation thread' when I actually saw Bill's post in the rules thread. I had gone back there after my post #39 in this thread to check that the rules for this game did state that custom written fake pm's would be available for all players, as I had assumed in that post, otherwise I would probably not have noticed Bill's objection.
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Post by sinjin on Feb 1, 2011 20:23:11 GMT -5
Hey ... I'm bicomputeracious ... I use Windows and Linux! Romola's vote on Bill does seem a little strange this early in the game. It may say more about her than him. And here we have a classic example of the drive by smudge. Why is it strange this early in the game? I'm suspicious of Bill's claim myself. As I said before, I hate this kind of thing and had to restrain myself from voting for Bill in my first post. But I decided to let him come in and explain, which he has and I gotta tell ya I'm still not happy. No it doesn't. It means that if you are a town vanilla you're playing a more for yourself than the team. If that's the way you feel you should play in strictly vanilla mafia games. Someone up above indicated that you had done this same or a similar thing in several games recently. Was that person lying? If so, why aren't you voting them? No one but you knows if you are vanilla town at this point. And given the possibility of a scum Godfather town won't know until you're dead. So what? So what? If you are not scum they knew nothing about you before and they still know nothing. How does this help town again? Let me get this straight: your plan is that a town watcher should watch you to take out a scum killer (if there is one specified) or catch a scum watcher (if there is one), but maybe that would be a bad move.......so maybe town should just ignore you, not watch, not protect, not detect and let scum kill you? Is that really your plan to help town and stay in the game longer? Yeah scum claiming vanilla town is completely different. Especially Godfather type scum, never happens. The heck with it Vote BillMcFoS bobarrgh
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Post by BobArrgh on Feb 1, 2011 20:38:20 GMT -5
@sinjin ... I wasn't really trying to "drive-by smudge" Romola. I was reacting more to the early vote rather than the vote itself. As far as I can see, there really isn't much to go on at this point, other than what appears to be a few null tells. I realize the voting needs to start somewhere.
I do like your second-to-last comment on Bill's posting.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Feb 2, 2011 0:09:38 GMT -5
Sinjin -- it is a new thing for Bill, as far as I know. Idle and pleonast are the two players known for claiming unprompted on Day One, not Bill, and I don't believe anyone has suggested otherwise.
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Post by harmless little bunny on Feb 2, 2011 0:49:04 GMT -5
vote Bill
I don't like the claim and I don't like the reasoning that follows. There isn't much to go on day one, but this pings me the most so far.
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Post by BillMc on Feb 2, 2011 4:04:43 GMT -5
oh frak this - do what you you like. lynch me, end the day early, dont care.
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Post by BillMc on Feb 2, 2011 4:11:04 GMT -5
Someone up above indicated that you had done this same or a similar thing in several games recently. Was that person lying? If so, why aren't you voting them? No - that person was referring to Idle --- not me. But since you are quite happy to propagate the lie, then do as you wish. And romola, as I said previously, I have previously stated, and previously objected in games by other mods to having pm's generated on demand to get folks necks out the noose. A discussion of the rules would be better kept to the rules thread, but since the mods locked that, it is continued here. Since it appears to be vote worthy to object to a rule, then I'll go one further than KidV and resign from the game. Sub me out please
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 2, 2011 4:39:43 GMT -5
Come on, Bill. It's just a few early votes. And sinjin asked you if you were being misrepresented, giving you a chance to defend yourself and correct the record, and I also think it was clear that she'd find that if people were not being forthcoming, that it would be vote worthy, and that she'd expect your vote to perhaps go there and that she'd park her's right next to it should that turn out to be the case.
Apologies for putting words in your mouth, sinjin, if I'm not parsing things correctly.
I happen to be aware after playing with you many times that you are a) in a different timezone than most of us and b) only participate in the game thread in more limited bursts than folks like myself who are intravenously online pretty much whenever we're awake, and that means you aren't going to be able to respond to direct questions in near-real time too often, but I don't think it is unreasonable for people to ask you questions, voice their suspicions and even vote for you during the delay.
We can't read your mind, and you know the paranoia is talking to us even when you're not able to.
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Natlaw
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Natlaw is a Modron short and stout.
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Post by Natlaw on Feb 2, 2011 6:58:08 GMT -5
Since it appears to be vote worthy to object to a rule, then I'll go one further than KidV and resign from the game. If I read the right vote right it's not because you object to the rule but because romola doesn't remember you objecting to it before. It is the same reasoning why I noted Plankton/Mahaloth earlier. My intention was however to start discussion about experiences with writing fake PMs. romola makes it a meta game vote and I can understand you don't like that (as to you would need to dig up posts from older games to disprove). But just countering with "no I didn't" and lay the burder of proof with romola seems enough of a response to me instead of leaving the game over a single vote (the other two are for your unprovoked vanilla claim). I agree that an opinion whether a rule is balanced or fair or not doesn't says anything about alignment but I do think discussing how the rules affect this game is valid. Compare with this begin a closed game doesn't mean we cannot speculate about possible power roles or discussion the voting/tie breaker rules and how the could be used to town or scums advantage is OK (for me).
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Natlaw
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Post by Natlaw on Feb 2, 2011 7:00:50 GMT -5
Sinjin -- it is a new thing for Bill, as far as I know. Idle and pleonast are the two players known for claiming unprompted on Day One, not Bill, and I don't believe anyone has suggested otherwise. Captain Pinkies did (after misreading the thread it seems): why? ?? WHY? must you shrink the town pool? If you are truly a vanilla it is your job to hide town power roles.... And from what I read, you did this other games... So this isn't someting new for you.... before getting the get rope... any insights you wish to provide? ??
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Post by guiri on Feb 2, 2011 7:21:14 GMT -5
I do like your second-to-last comment on Bill's posting. /snip, underline Are you referring to this comment: So if there is a town watcher, and they so decide to watch by back, so to speak, then if the scummy scum take me out, then it will likely be a 1 for 1 trade. If the scum have a watcher, then of course, they may play the same game. Whether watchers see each other is at the whim of the mods, but they would see any cop or doc that wandered in my general direction. So that would be a bad move by the town. If I am scum or third party or pfk, of course, such wifom makes it risky for an investigation for exactly the same reasons. Let me get this straight: your plan is that a town watcher should watch you to take out a scum killer (if there is one specified) or catch a scum watcher (if there is one), but maybe that would be a bad move.......so maybe town should just ignore you, not watch, not protect, not detect and let scum kill you? Is that really your plan to help town and stay in the game longer? Earlier you said this: While I totally agree with Cookies's question about what would happen if everybody claimed Vanilla Town, I do like the points you raised with regards to the possible presence of Watchers. It actually answered some questions in my mind about the relative merits of starting out that way. Maybe not my personal cup of tea, but hey, we all play the game the way we feel best. /underlined Given that you liked and saw merits in Bill's original post, what did you like about sinjin's comment?
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Post by KidVermicious on Feb 2, 2011 7:41:40 GMT -5
If I read the right vote right it's not because you object to the rule but because romola doesn't remember you objecting to it before. It is the same reasoning why I noted Plankton/Mahaloth earlier. My intention was however to start discussion about experiences with writing fake PMs. romola makes it a meta game vote and I can understand you don't like that (as to you would need to dig up posts from older games to disprove). But just countering with "no I didn't" and lay the burder of proof with romola seems enough of a response to me instead of leaving the game over a single vote (the other two are for your unprovoked vanilla claim). I'll say this - I think Romolas vote is because she believes Bill has complained about the rule in a bid for Town cred. Kinda weak if you ask me, but it is early Day One.
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Post by Mahaloth on Feb 2, 2011 7:50:05 GMT -5
oh frak this - do what you you like. lynch me, end the day early, dont care. I hate these kind of posts and following one that asks to be subbed out. It's a game, you got a couple early votes for reasons you don't like, and now you want to whine about it and ask to be removed? 1. That's lame and I didn't think it was like you. 2. I think it could be a scum tactic to convince us that you are town. I mean, a scum wouldn't ask to be removed or tell us to lynch him. Or would they. It's WIFOM I know, but it doesn't seem like you to do this. It's enough for me to put my early vote on you, too. Vote BillPlenty of time to move my vote if a better case arrives.
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Post by Renata on Feb 2, 2011 7:53:26 GMT -5
@ sinjin ... I wasn't really trying to "drive-by smudge" Romola. I was reacting more to the early vote rather than the vote itself. As far as I can see, there really isn't much to go on at this point, other than what appears to be a few null tells. I realize the voting needs to start somewhere. I do like your second-to-last comment on Bill's posting. If you're looking for a drive-by smudge, check out KidV's "interesting" as regards my defense of the PM-writing mechanism, given that I had had use of that mechanism as scum before. What was that supposed to imply, KidV? Spell it out. As for the current bandwagon on Bill, I'd like a) for Bill to remain in the game, and b) to resurrect my rant against the people voting for a vanilla claim on day one in the current game on Giraffe. But hey, I was scum there and got lynched in part FOR the irritation I felt over that, so hey, maybe me thinking the votes for Bill's vanilla claim are anti-town and hence suspicious as all hell means I'm scum here too, so never mind. Or not. vote: Hockey Monkey[/color] For "me too"-ing what is IMO a poor vote (plus a weak vote, Romola's) on someone I think more likely to be town than not.
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Post by Renata on Feb 2, 2011 7:54:28 GMT -5
Bah, harmless little bunny is crazypunker, not Hockey Monkey.
unvote[/color] vote: harmless little bunny/crazypunker[/color]
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Post by KidVermicious on Feb 2, 2011 9:01:04 GMT -5
If you're looking for a drive-by smudge, check out KidV's "interesting" as regards my defense of the PM-writing mechanism, given that I had had use of that mechanism as scum before. What was that supposed to imply, KidV? Spell it out. You and everybody else know exactly what I meant. You played a game as scum and found the fake PMs helpful. Now here you are arguing strongly in favor of them. It's a minor point against you, and I wanted to note it. It's another minor point against you that you're redirecting. "Hey, look what KidV did, he's smudging too!". It's another minor point against you that you're classifying what I did as a smudge, when it wasn't. But lets get back to the discussion between you and Bob. That made you very defensive, I'd like to know why.
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Post by sinjin on Feb 2, 2011 9:23:41 GMT -5
Someone up above indicated that you had done this same or a similar thing in several games recently. Was that person lying? If so, why aren't you voting them? No - that person was referring to Idle --- not me. But since you are quite happy to propagate the lie, then do as you wish. It was this quote by Renata that confuzeled me: I just went back and re-read again and again I thought she was talking about you. Then I increased the font on my computer (which is brandy new and I'm still getting adjusted to it) and realized she was talking about Idle not you. For that I apologize. I haven't played for awhile, but this seems like a minor thing for you to quit over.
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Post by BobArrgh on Feb 2, 2011 9:35:40 GMT -5
@guiri ... I'm not sure I totally understand sinjin's comment regarding a Town Watcher watching Bill. It's the part after the ellipses that seem a little strange. I've read Bill's post several times and just can't come to the same conclusion that sinjin does.
@bill ... I hope you stay. I hear your frustration, but hope that the situation can be salvaged.
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Post by special on Feb 2, 2011 9:43:32 GMT -5
Vote Count with approximately 4 days, 14 hours and 18 minutes until DayEnd
Player (# of votes) (peak number of votes) voters [post in which vote was cast, post in which vote was removed]
BillMc (4)(4) Romola [113], sinjin [128], harmless little bunny [131], Mahaloth [139] harmless little bunny (1)(1) Renata [141] Invalid (1)(1) peekercpa [15] Hockey Monkey (0)(1) Renata [140,141]
Trying to vote but not succeeding (1) KidVermicious
Not voting (18) Renata, Merestil Haye, BillMc, Sister Coyote, Captain Pinkies, Paranoia, Hockey Monkey, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, bobarrgh, texcat, Romanic, Suburban Plankton, timmy, naturallylazy, guiri, pedescribe, Natlaw, Red Skeezix
With these votes, BillMc will be lynched
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Post by sinjin on Feb 2, 2011 9:49:46 GMT -5
@ guiri ... I'm not sure I totally understand sinjin's comment regarding a Town Watcher watching Bill. It's the part after the ellipses that seem a little strange. I've read Bill's post several times and just can't come to the same conclusion that sinjin does. You don't understand my comment and can't come to the same conclusion, but you like it? Exactly what conclusions do you come to when reading this:
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Romola
Mome Rath
One of them saw two words of the joke and spent several weeks in hospital.
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Post by Romola on Feb 2, 2011 10:21:31 GMT -5
I'll be really sorry if Bill dumps the game because of my vote, as he is a great player. In my defence, I did ask my questions politely first, I certainly wasn't asking for cites. Sometimes it takes a vote before people will acknowledge a question.
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Post by Renata on Feb 2, 2011 10:24:23 GMT -5
If you're looking for a drive-by smudge, check out KidV's "interesting" as regards my defense of the PM-writing mechanism, given that I had had use of that mechanism as scum before. What was that supposed to imply, KidV? Spell it out. You and everybody else know exactly what I meant. You played a game as scum and found the fake PMs helpful. Now here you are arguing strongly in favor of them. It's a minor point against you, and I wanted to note it. It's another minor point against you that you're redirecting. "Hey, look what KidV did, he's smudging too!". It's another minor point against you that you're classifying what I did as a smudge, when it wasn't. But lets get back to the discussion between you and Bob. That made you very defensive, I'd like to know why. There was no discussion between me and Bob. I used his comment to bring up something I wanted to say about you. The "defensiveness" is related to another game -- I'm still a little irritated about getting in trouble as scum due to bringing up something I would take (and am now taking) take just as much objection to as town. Maybe it was my wording, I don't know, but it frustrated me. I'm speaking about sinjin and harmless bunny's votes against Bill for claiming vanilla, here. Anyway -- having benefited from the PM rule previously as scum (actually, I didn't directly as it never came into play in that game, but that's beside the point) and supporting it now is no point against me at all and is one reason I'm minorly suspicious of you for acting like it is. More so since you didn't say so directly, but just tossed out an "interesting" -- you led people to think along those lines while retaining the ability to deny casting suspicion by doing so. That's MY personal definition of a smudge. Regardless, you're on record now, which is what I wanted. Redirecting presumes I'm redirecting FROM something -- what am I supposed to be trying to get people not to look at, here?
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Post by BobArrgh on Feb 2, 2011 10:41:39 GMT -5
<font style="font-size: 12px;">You don't understand my comment and can't come to the same conclusion, but you like it? Exactly what conclusions do you come to when reading this: The way I read Bill's post, it is not an absolute given that the Scum Watcher (if there is one) would be able to see the Town Watcher (if there is one), since that is at the discretion of the mods. Yes, I agree that if the Doc protects him or if the Cop investigates him, then a Scum Watcher would see those visits. However, I thought Bill was talking about having the Town Watcher (and not the Cop or Doc) watch him to see who comes near him. If the Town Watcher sees anyone kill Bill, then that could be the subject of a lynching the next Day, hence the one-for-one. I just didn't see it as a specifically anti-Town statement.
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