RoOsh
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day 1
Sept 10, 2007 23:58:25 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Sept 10, 2007 23:58:25 GMT -5
Yep, you're right. It's less of actually appealing for direction (just as likely to come from active scum) than it is for me questioning DopeMafia's prejudice against random voting on Day One. I've always thought that random voting when there aren't vote records to go through helps the town. This, of course, is given that scum generally will avoid voting for fellow scum in a random, early vote. :head slap over the whole shifting thing. Oh a REAL game of mafia: (>_<) But as for the random voting thing, i see it as beneficial to scum, as if they just "Truly" random vote, even if it IS scum, then they look great for it, because the votes are untraceable back to them. It's the perfect way to nail someone w/o accountability. I like people voting w/ reasoning, and people voting w/ the intent that they could potentially kill said person, so make your vote damn well count, ya know? :shrug: but everyone's got a diff. playing style, so... I dunno. But also the random voting thing, only applies in a Day Start w/ no info. We've already had 1 night, so information is already being spread through the people, and people have been talking. Random votes are great if there isn't chatter, but this is a game where we can talk and see what's been said. So that's how it differs from the Reallife Mafia( i think)
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 0:15:42 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 11, 2007 0:15:42 GMT -5
I've always been suspicious of people who overly state (or even state at all) how it's "random" in their posts. Like: "Oh man, who do I randomly vote for?" or "So what, do I just place a vote at random? [see whatthefrack earlier]"
On the first Day there is always a high degree of randomness if you're town. And if you aren't, it doesn't matter because you're going to be playing like it is for you anyway. So basicially, it's "random" for everyone. Why bother saying this then? Or pointing it out? I never saw the point of ever mentioning the randomness and applying it to yourself in this game because everyone already knows that it's random for town on Day One. Drawing attention to that fact just seems to be trying to subtly plant the seed of towniness early on.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 0:22:32 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Sept 11, 2007 0:22:32 GMT -5
We're not going to have that whole "random vote" debate again, are we? If so, I won't be participating.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 0:26:32 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Sept 11, 2007 0:26:32 GMT -5
I never saw the point of ever mentioning the randomness and applying it to yourself in this game because everyone already knows that it's random for town on Day One. Drawing attention to that fact just seems to be trying to subtly plant the seed of towniness early on. Meh. Towniness doesn't help at all in the early game, and I seriously doubt I'm going to make it into the late game. Hopefully my blather will help out somewhat to those better at this than I.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 0:28:46 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on Sept 11, 2007 0:28:46 GMT -5
I never saw the point of ever mentioning the randomness and applying it to yourself in this game because everyone already knows that it's random for town on Day One. Drawing attention to that fact just seems to be trying to subtly plant the seed of towniness early on. Not to necessarily jump to WTF's defence (scumtell scumtell, ding ding ding ) Idle, but everybody doesn't necessarily know that Day One is essentially all about random voting, we have several (included WhatTheFrack I think?) completely new players in the game. I for one originally expected there to be some real basis for votes right from the get go, a notion which I was quickly disabused of
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 0:46:13 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Sept 11, 2007 0:46:13 GMT -5
I for one originally expected there to be some real basis for votes right from the get go, a notion which I was quickly disabused of As the voter for WTF, let me question what we were going to base our votes on? Should I vote for Hal Briston, because the theory of probability* says that, as often as people have thought he was scum, he must be scum by now? Fine. Unvote: WTFVote: Everyone who hasn't been scum yet
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 0:47:16 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Sept 11, 2007 0:47:16 GMT -5
* I know the theory of probability is bunko, in case it ain't clear.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 1:29:26 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on Sept 11, 2007 1:29:26 GMT -5
Sorry Diomedes, I wasn't intending to chip you for voting for WTF. Your vote for WTF is as valid as any other on Day 1. Just because I was in the same boat in the Psycho game I was just trying to point out to Idle that the new players don't necessarily know that the Day 1 lynching is basically a crap shoot, and so, I for one will cut them some slack for outright saying " this vote is random" Wow, how pretenious am I? Talking about "New players" with my vast experience of one whole game!
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RoOsh
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 1:47:08 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Sept 11, 2007 1:47:08 GMT -5
:sigh: Okay.... No one's figured it out yet. But then again, the brits prolly haven't even SEEN this thread, and It's like 2am over here on the East coast. So I'll wait untill tomorrow, Since we have like 10 days for toDay. But come on guys. Can't ANY one of you figure it out? Why is The Closed Setting Better for Town Than Scum? Think about it. And if you have an answer, great, keep it to yourself (or be pretentious and go "ooh, I know!" or share it with the town if you so feel) I'll probably do the latter after more people have actually SEEN the first day. But lets not freak out, or do anything silly on day one. I'm talking to you there, Diomedes. If you have no reason to vote someone, then just State THAT as your reason. But you don't have to be snippy about it.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 1:54:05 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 11, 2007 1:54:05 GMT -5
I think the whole "New Player" thing could be a pretty big copout. I, personally, don't think that new players should be exempt from suspicion over things that I, personally, just happen to find suspicious all round.
Sure it could be because they're new to the game. But it also could be a great backdrop to use for innocence too. "TeeHee, I'm new! Let's talk about power roles some more because I just don't get them, teehee!"
Hahaha, not saying anyone here is saying that. ; D As far as I see, nobody has. Well, yet. I'm just saying that I don't think newness has to do with anything. If a person is clever or smart, they might play dumb. *shrugs* And hope you'd back them up.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 2:09:10 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on Sept 11, 2007 2:09:10 GMT -5
Agree with you to a point Idle. I guess I have an interesting pespective given that my first game I was almost lynched for suspicions based upon some fairly fine nuances in language. Which I knew were just personal style. Personally, unless someone makes a fairly major screw up, I think patterns of voting and posting behaviour are far more useful than nitpicking the language in a single post for detecting a scum. I do think however that I will have to control my impulse to defend the new players. It could get me into a lot of trouble. Besides given the number of new players, odds are at least one of them is going to be scum, and in that case, hang em high says I. That raises a point actually, given a player roster of 28 people, anyone (the old hands I'm looking at you) have any insight into how many scum that would normally mean are in the game? Assuming a vanilla set up?
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 6:41:58 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Sept 11, 2007 6:41:58 GMT -5
I'm going to FOS dotchan for something that happened during the night.
First, Roosh warns Diomedes:
A few other people post, and then dotchan pipes up with:
dotchan is the first to point out that rule. It piqued my interest then, because I thought "Who better to notice that than someone who has a killing role?" I had forgotten that there wasn't going to be a kill tonight even though we were starting in night, and had to go back to the rules to make sure. (And then, after confirming the rule, I thought "Well, there may be multiple killing roles, because otherwise I think it would have been safe/balanced to start with a single night kill to give us a little more info.")
Of course, after I saw dot's potential slip, I started playing the WIFOM game, because after all it IS a rule, and had I remembered it, I would have probably posted the same thing and then someone else would be making this post about me.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 6:58:00 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 11, 2007 6:58:00 GMT -5
<Takes jacket off, rolls up sleeves, gets to work>
First off, I have no knowledge of the FireFly universe although that should change over the next few weeks.
Also, I would count myself as a newbie while playing this game. However, being a newbie should not mean you are at a total disadvantage compared to other players.
You may not know their style of play, but they don't know how you will play. The only catch might be some of the conventions and references that have sprung up from previous games.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:00:00 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 11, 2007 7:00:00 GMT -5
Why is The Closed Setting Better for Town Than Scum? Figured it and it is very useful indeed for the opening stages. I won't say why, as most should be able to work it out, but I will let Roosh say later on, when ready.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:13:17 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 11, 2007 7:13:17 GMT -5
I'm going to FOS dotchan for something that happened during the night. This strikes me as really odd for one reason. Dotchan isn't playing. She is a sub.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:18:14 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Sept 11, 2007 7:18:14 GMT -5
I'm going to FOS dotchan for something that happened during the night. I don't think she's playing.
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Gir!
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What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:18:27 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Sept 11, 2007 7:18:27 GMT -5
First Official Vote Count
Idle Thoughts (1) - zuma Roosh (1) - Idle Thoughts
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:19:04 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 11, 2007 7:19:04 GMT -5
Random voting vs. Non Random voting.
For the scum, there is no random voting. They are playing with knowledge of who their team mates are. However, they don't know who else is playing what.
For the vanilla town, the votes will be only be random if you don't read what everyone is saying.
Some of the town should have some night knowledge, and after a few nights, it should be expected.
The only thing we can do is read it and determine what you think each person is. Don't randomly vote and have a reason, good or bad, for doing so.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:24:28 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 11, 2007 7:24:28 GMT -5
Note to self
If they look like scum they are probably town. If they look like town they are probably scum.
The point of the game is for the scum to hide amongst the townies and so think and act like townies. The point of the townies is to root out the scum and the best way to do this is to think like scum. This may come out in their posts.
Try and find a reason other than just "they look scummy".
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:33:34 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 11, 2007 7:33:34 GMT -5
Roosh,
I can see why you have concerns over Dnooman's post.
All we have to go on is our role PM and the night investigations that some lucky people got to carry out.
I am pretty certain I know what my role in this game is, and being unsure of something this fundamental is not a good point in his favour.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:36:24 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Sept 11, 2007 7:36:24 GMT -5
Note to self:
Post quicker or preview.
But on preview the posts start from the first and don't get to the latest ones. Is there a way to toggle that?
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:38:49 GMT -5
Post by Yattara on Sept 11, 2007 7:38:49 GMT -5
I have seen the series, but not the movie.
Also, I am new to closed set-up. *shrugs*
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:40:27 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Sept 11, 2007 7:40:27 GMT -5
Whoops! Next time I'll check the game list. LOL
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Merestil Haye
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:43:01 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Sept 11, 2007 7:43:01 GMT -5
Random voting vs. Non Random voting. For the scum, there is no random voting. They are playing with knowledge of who their team mates are. However, they don't know who else is playing what. I'm really not convinced of the truth of this statement. If I want to make a random vote, I pick up a die (I have a few spare by the printer). In this game it would probably be the d30 right now. If I were scum (just for the sake of this argument), I'd simply reroll the die (or roll a smaller die) if it came up any of my scumbuddies. The result would still be random. The chance of the result I did get would be slightly higher than the chance a vanilla crew had of getting the same result. Over a large number of such rolls this might be detectable, but a single result? Not a chance. Thus this "scum can't play at random" is wrong. They're just as capable of randomising a single result as the crew are. Now I have to read the thread again and assimilate it. (I didn't think it would be a good idea at 4am).
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:47:07 GMT -5
Post by Yattara on Sept 11, 2007 7:47:07 GMT -5
It would be not-so-random, since you are eliminating those who you know are on your side.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:52:36 GMT -5
Post by Zeriel on Sept 11, 2007 7:52:36 GMT -5
First: I'm a Firefly noob--I've seen about half of Serenity, never seen the series.
Second: I'm not going to have as much time for this game as I have previous ones--I'll be posting at least once a day, but I might not be in as many ongoing discussions.
Third: My experience in M5 is making me really REALLY want to short-circuit the secretiveness thing--we as town were way too secretive about power roles and it led to them being unable to coordinate after the scum already knew who they were. I'm not saying give everything away early, but I AM saying that it might behoove us to think carefully about when we play the "I have a secret" card--roosh's demonstration is a perfect example, because some of us townies DON'T know why closed setups are better (aside from scum not knowing which power roles to look for tells about, so we townies can make up power tells to confuse the bejeezus out of them) and therefore we can't play up whatever it is.
I am totally serious about this. This bit us in the ass many, many times in M5--I'm guilty of it myself, because my failure to claim for Cookies and Sach resulted in Monkgate.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:53:56 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 11, 2007 7:53:56 GMT -5
At this point we could have a very long maths debate over whether what you suggest is random or not.
I would suggest not, as the scum have no chance of voting for their team if they randomly vote only for townies. A truly random vote would mean that the scum would vote for whoever the dice came up for (using your example) even if the person who came up was scum.
Yes, I agree the scum could vote randomly should they wish to. However, given how distracting this could be, I will leave the subject alone.
PS: You have a d30, way cool!
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:54:06 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Sept 11, 2007 7:54:06 GMT -5
I'm really not convinced of the truth of this statement. If I want to make a random vote, I pick up a die (I have a few spare by the printer). In this game it would probably be the d30 right now. If I were scum (just for the sake of this argument), I'd simply reroll the die (or roll a smaller die) if it came up any of my scumbuddies. The result would still be random. The chance of the result I did get would be slightly higher than the chance a vanilla crew had of getting the same result. Over a large number of such rolls this might be detectable, but a single result? Not a chance. Thus this "scum can't play at random" is wrong. They're just as capable of randomising a single result as the crew are. Now I have to read the thread again and assimilate it. (I didn't think it would be a good idea at 4am). That is the silliest definition of random I've ever heard. You're kidding right?
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:54:13 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Sept 11, 2007 7:54:13 GMT -5
I find it odd that you all are assuming that scum would leave other scum out of the "random" votes at the beginning of the game. Speaking as someone who was scum (however briefly) in the last game, I would have had no qualms voting for scum in the random stage. At some point it might give you some sort of credibility. In the last game, I made my first random vote before I even checked my role PM--I tend to sort of rush into things, as you might imagine (sigh--I still feel like a moron for FOSing someone who isn't even in the damn game...). I still would have voted for that person even if they were scum. So you can't assume that scum is leaving their fellow scum-mates out of the random voting stage. To do so is dangerous, especially when we try to go back and analyze these first few votes once we have more information.
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Day 1
Sept 11, 2007 7:54:58 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Sept 11, 2007 7:54:58 GMT -5
....trained ape without the training? I can't even remember what word I actually used there.
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