Natlaw
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Natlaw is a Modron short and stout.
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Post by Natlaw on Feb 18, 2011 13:15:07 GMT -5
i am not even sure that it matters although it might have implications for natlaw. What implications? What I can think of is that Mahaloth tried to redirect me so that if anyone tracked/watched his target would be the same his claimed investigation. But that assumes scum thought I was a power role worth redirecting (go fake PM? ) and there was also a claimed watcher that was blocked so if that's truthful there would need to be another town tracker/watcher to see him.
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Natlaw
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Natlaw is a Modron short and stout.
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Post by Natlaw on Feb 18, 2011 13:19:07 GMT -5
Bob, do you know what bussing is? I thought bussing was another term for starting the wagon train on someone. Bussing is scum voting for scum (as in throwing him under a bus). It's more often used when that scum is also in danger/actually lynched as compared to scum placing a one-off vote that doesn't really put him in danger. Like other I have trouble swallowing your claim but still haven't reread on you yet.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Feb 18, 2011 13:27:08 GMT -5
I'm disinclined to believe Bob's claim at this point, so I'm not planning to unvote him. Regarding CIAS and Pede: I'll just point out, you are the only player stating outright that it was a scum kill on Night 2. But there is no reason for you to state this because the general Town cannot know what happened. The only people who do know are likely to be the scum and any SKs/Vigs should they exist. assuming that scum killed at Night doesn't seem to be a stretch. God help us all, I'm about to agree (sort of) with peeker. We can, I think, safely assume based on Night One that we have multiple killing roles. We know Scum had a redirector. It does seem most likely that the Scum Kill is the one that went through last Night, and if I hadn't been taught by playing on this board never to assume such that probably would have been my assumption as well, so I don't really read anything into pede's statement. Even if he is a better player than to make those assumptions under normal situations. I guess what I'm saying is that it's not a tick in the positive column, but I don't think he's Scum or third party based on this alone. Shit, if he is a killing role, he could be a Town Vig for all we know. cool a confession implicating two other scum. Bite me, peek, and give Bob a break on this one -- this is all of his second game, I think. Basically, the one that involves The Typo. Looking back at Day 1, ISTM that the typo was not a typo, and thus Bob's claim that it was is a lie. Now, I could see a townie lying about that, just because they don't want to get votes. But obviously lying is always suspicious. However, I don't think he acted very suspicious on Day 2, and I think that Romanic is also lying to make sure that Bob is lynched. The thing about Romanic lying is that he was building up momentum on me on Days One and Two, and probably could have swayed more people onto his side. So why waste time getting Bob lynched? Also, I really do disagree about the Typo. Reading the back and forth between Bob and sinjin, I honestly read Bob's words as implying he thought he'd said what he says he thought he'd said. Which doesn't let you off the hook, Bob. I'm just saying. Doesn't have to be detailed, but getting some thoughts, any thoughts down helps the town. Shit, they don't even have to be good thoughts, IMO. Talking helps Town. Silence helps Scum.And Scum would Totally Do That
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Post by BobArrgh on Feb 18, 2011 13:28:18 GMT -5
Then I don't know if I am being bussed or not. I didn't realize that bussing was something Scum did to Scum.
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Natlaw
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Natlaw is a Modron short and stout.
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Post by Natlaw on Feb 18, 2011 13:33:35 GMT -5
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 18, 2011 14:44:08 GMT -5
[oog] as much as I despise them normally, key word links would be handy on these boards. Every time you put 'bussing' or 'shoes' or 'gastard' in a post, it shows up as a contextual hyperlink to the wiki [/oog]
I have read Bob's claim, understood it, contemplated it, and I will not be removing my vote from him at this time, nor am I promising to do so under any hypothetical future circumstances whether real or imagined, though I do not rule out the possibility that I may change my mind and remove my vote should new information or epiphanies ensue, but that is not the same as promising to unvote him.
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Post by Renata on Feb 18, 2011 14:50:04 GMT -5
I think that pedescribe's argument against Romanic is overstated -- he certainly paraphrased generously, but the way he characterized Bob's statement is the same way as it sounded in my head. However you nitpick the exact syntax, it does come across as the wording of a scum who is overjustifying a vote change that isn't really supported by his previous behavior.
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Post by guiri on Feb 18, 2011 17:18:27 GMT -5
I'm not forgetting about you either, Texcat. Anything you wish to contribute? What's up Texcat? I count 8 posts so far in 3 Days, I don't remember you being so quiet. D1#28 Asks Bill why he claimed VT D1#38 Likes mods' offer to help with fake claims, even for townies D1#185 When poked by paranoia, LOLs D1#247 Votes Bob (4th), doesn't buy explanation of "I do like" D1#351 Thinks Mahaloth's claim is a perfect fake claim for scum, will give benefit of doubt, thinks Harmless' claim is risky for scum D2#128 Catching up, is pinged by Mahaloth's "I have/had no idea who scum is" but not worth a vote, finds Suburban and Cookies suspicious for keeping their vote on KidV, makes argument about not automatically unvoting a power role claim but votes Cookies for being inconsistent for not unvoting and for not returning to Mahaloth after KidV's claim despite having mentioned [earlier] that she found Mahaloth the scummiest D2#143 When asked about her Day 1 suspicions of Bob, is still keeping an eye on him but Cookies is looking scummier. Thinks Cookies only unvoted Mahaloth due to the claim itself. D3#7 Comments that a single death is not a bad result
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Post by naturallylazy on Feb 18, 2011 18:56:47 GMT -5
I apologize AGAIN. I have had finals this week, and continue to be distracted by another round and have been so ill I can not even think straight...
I will see if I can catch up on this game here in a few hours when I am not so much of a stressball. Auuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh... If I had known this was going to happen I would not have signed up, I am so sorrryy...
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Post by peekercpa on Feb 18, 2011 19:04:13 GMT -5
What implications? What I can think of is that Mahaloth tried to redirect me so that if anyone tracked/watched his target would be the same his claimed investigation. But that assumes scum thought I was a power role worth redirecting (go fake PM? ) and there was also a claimed watcher that was blocked so if that's truthful there would need to be another town tracker/watcher to see him. well i'll address your scenario before the question. man you folks think some awful deep thoughts and complicated scenarios. the only implication that i was referring to was whether to believe if you are town. i mean maha has got to figure that sooner or later he bites it. so i doubt he was trying to give you any cred directly because now we don't believe a thing he said. i mean maybe if he lasts a couple of Days and some of his "results" start popping town then we get some wifom on which ones he was telling the truth about and which ones he was lying about when he flips scum. but i think indirectly he gave you said cred because it makes sense to start off gentle like when pulling that type of claim. that's the implication that i was alluding to.
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Post by BobArrgh on Feb 18, 2011 22:57:41 GMT -5
[oog] Just want to let everyone know I just got home from a 14-hour day at work. My wife's mom is not doing very well and so I am going to be driving my wife to her parents' house tomorrow (Saturday). That will be a 400 mile trip, but I will be back tomorrow evening and will have more time to read, reflect, and lay down a vote. (I've cross-posted this in the Giraffe game, too.) [/oog]
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Post by Red Skeezix on Feb 18, 2011 23:06:20 GMT -5
Guess I'm late to the party, but I don't believe bob's claim. It's a power that just don't make sense, and could potentially be TOO powerful. I mean, what if the snippet contained all the names of all the scum? It's a power that reveals whether a person has hidden communication.
vote bobarrgh
[oog] Sorry to hear about your MIL. [/oog]
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Feb 18, 2011 23:37:24 GMT -5
I don't believe Bob's claim at all. It doesn't make sense. Plus when he says that now he's not sure if he's being bussed...that he didn't realize it was a scum on scum thing...well, wouldn't you say that you were sure you weren't being bussed in that case? Doesn't add up for me.
vote bobarrgh
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Post by Romanic on Feb 19, 2011 2:10:06 GMT -5
Agreed that this claim is odd, a power like this should never exist. QTs should are made private to stay private.
Very unconvincing claim and I'll be shocked if this power is for real.
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Post by peekercpa on Feb 19, 2011 9:32:07 GMT -5
i kind of have to agree with the general sentiment here. a "listener" that gets to pick their target is basically a full blown cop. now it's a tad bid nerfed in that if we have masons and if they are allowed to communicate then he might tag one of them. but having been a mason every now and again those discussions are a heck of lot more indicative of town alignment rather than the scheming that typically goes on in a scum board.
as i said before the role itself is not that outlandish. the last time i saw one was when i was scum and we didn't know it existed until a claim was made (and the fact that one of my posts got picked and it had the typical non capitalization and no one clued to it was about mind boggling). but iirc it was purely random and to some extent the mods exercised judgement on what and how much of said post was made known and the author certainly wasn't provided. i mean really random shit has kind of become non copacetic these days. seriously just think if bob is true and got lucky and picked a scum that had a post that outed all the other scum. then this game would be about as broken as could be as well as fun as watching paint dry.
and the final nail for me is the two targets. sinjin, maybe so maybe no. i mean sin posts some but not a ton so maybe i give him that one. but to pick pinkies after he has gone awol is about fucked up. i mean he doesn't make a post all Day but you figure he's got the squirts on a secret board? really, i mean really? and normally i try not to involve myself in the machinations of power roles but jeebs even if it were plausible that you are what you say you are you kind of need to be bitch slapped just for the two choices of targets (please don't go sushi on me).
vote bob
and as an aside i kind of wonder if this isn't some wacky experiment just to honk with kidv. complain about requested fake pm's. ok we'll show you what fracking harm they do to town.
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Post by peekercpa on Feb 19, 2011 9:45:07 GMT -5
[oog]
bob have a safe trip as well as thoughts and prayers.
[/oog]
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Post by guiri on Feb 19, 2011 12:17:52 GMT -5
A) On Day 1 (#358), he [ Suburban] said he thought that sinjin's reasoning for her vote on me felt "off". I didn't pursue any line-of-questioning on sinjin yesterDay because I could sense her frustration and stress over her husband's departure. I really didn't want to pile on sinjin. That is probably a very naive attitude on my part, and I probably won't be making that mistake again.I'm not sure how to interpret this but it reads like Bob wanted to ask Suburban about the latter's suspicions of sinjin on Day 2 but didn't want to question or pile on to sinjin as she was having RL issues. I don't see how this comment can be reconciled with his claimed investigation of her on Night 1: On Day 1, I listened to sinjin, based on Burby's statement that something felt "off" about her vote.[...]I chose to interpret all the silence as meaning that sinjin does not have access to another board, which is why I backed off from her on Day 2./snip & underline /oog Hope your MIL gets well soon, safe trip
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Post by special on Feb 19, 2011 14:15:52 GMT -5
Vote Countwith approximately 1 day, 14 hours and 44 minutes until DayEndPlayer (# of votes) (peak number of votes) voters [post in which vote was cast, post in which vote was removed] Bobarrgh (10) (10 104) Sister Coyote [12], Romanic [30], Renata [31], CatInASuit [50], guiri [52], ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCoconuts [59], pedescribe [83], Red Skeezix [101], Hockey Monkey [102], peekercpa [104] Captain Pinkies (1) (1 0) Romanic (0) (1 42) pedescribe [42 83]Not Voting (9) Merestil Haye, Captain Pinkies, Romola, sinjin, bobarrgh, texcat, naturallylazy, harmless little bunny, Natlaw With these votes, Bobarrgh would be lynched.
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Post by texcat on Feb 19, 2011 14:17:20 GMT -5
Sorry, I haven't had as much time here as I would have liked. I voted for Bob on Day One, mostly because I did not believe his typo explanation. And I have read Bob's comments toDay more than a few times and just can't seem to make a lot of sense of them. On Day 1, I found both Mahaloth's and Harmless' claims to be suspicious, but of the two claims, I found Harmless's claim to be fishier. I didn't renew my case on Harmless on Day 2 because I thought that Coconut Cookies was acting more scummy than Harmless.
Now that Mahaloth flipped as scum, Harmless' claim looks more plausible, so she is pretty much off my scumdar right now.Day1. Harmless > Mahaloth. Day2. Coco Cookies > Harmless And yet Bob voted Mahaloth? I wasn't trying to bus Mahaloth. I had voted for Coconut Cookies because of her pattern of voting for people who had voted for her first. Mahaloth spent the Day sounding increasingly desperate. By the end of the Day, I felt that he was giving off bad vibes that overcame my initial suspicion of Coconut Cookies. Mahaloth spending the day sounding increasingly desperate, and that was why you voting him? Bob, I hate to tell you this, but you are sounding increasingly desperate to me. Does that make you scummy as well? Bob's claim does give me pause. It is a quite powerful and useful role that we might be able to prove or dis-prove eventually. [ Sorry to hear about the MIL. Hope things get better for you soon, Bob. ]
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Post by Renata on Feb 19, 2011 16:58:50 GMT -5
[Me too. Best wishes, Bob.]
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Romola
Mome Rath
One of them saw two words of the joke and spent several weeks in hospital.
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Post by Romola on Feb 19, 2011 17:51:38 GMT -5
I haven't seen a listener role that could target a specific player before but I'm not so convinced that Bob's claimed role is all that powerful. If he gets results from a target, it proves that the target has off-board communication, that's all. Could be a mason, could be scum, but unless the random snippet is something like 'let's kill Bob tonight', there's no way of knowing. Similarly, if there is no result, that doesn't clear the target. Targetting Captain Pinkies and getting no results says nothing at all, I've seen Captain get lynched and not knowing anything about it because he simply wasn't around.
I'm not convinced on some other parts of the cases against Bob - the confusion about what 'bussing' means is a no tell as far as I can see, and his day one typo is similar. The only thing that I find worrying is the timing of the claim, which does seem to back Cat in a suit's theory that scum were waiting for the mods to write a decent false claim.
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Romola
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Post by Romola on Feb 19, 2011 18:20:00 GMT -5
I'd like to see more from SisC about her vote for Bob toDay. She cited the reasons she gave yesterDay, which didn't grip me at the time, and hasn't given further reasons. Sis, what do you think of the other votes for Bob and his claim?
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Post by BobArrgh on Feb 19, 2011 18:27:43 GMT -5
[oog] Thanks to everyone for their prayers, kind wishes, and good thoughts. Drove the last 45 miles in heavy rain for an hour. [/oog]
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Feb 19, 2011 19:04:43 GMT -5
Bob Best wishes for the trip. Glad you made it safely. Get back when you can. Real life is more important than Mafia. Now, on to Day 3. The main topic of conversation has been Bobaarrgh, so I've focussed on that so far. The two things I want to comment on re Bob are Romanic's case and Bob's claim. Once I've looked at that, I'll review Pedescribe's and Dark Coconut's posts, since I've had votes on them before; that's assuming I have time (I'm roleplaying tomorrow evening, assuming I can find a way there given the closure of my local Underground line.) Romanic's case is in D03.030. Romanic's basic contention, it seems to me, is that Bob's vote switch from DarkCoconut to Mahaloth is not supported by a record of suspicions or analysis while Mahaloth was alive. That, in itself, doesn't seem unreasonable. However, Romanic takes Bob's vote switch post, claims that Bob's reason seems off, and paraphrases the post to support that contention. I don't agree that his paraphrase is reasonable. I read Bob's post as “Mahaloth has done nothing Today (Day 2) to convince me he's Town. While I still think Cookies' votes are OMGUS motivated, Mahaloth is pinging me harder Today.” Romanic, it seems to me, has structured his paraphrase to support the conclusions he had already drawn, which I would expect someone to do only if he felt the case needed shoring up a bit. Personally, I think there's a big gap between “None of Mahaloth's protestations toDay have done anything to convince me that he is Town,” and “But, Mahaloth has definitely pinged my Scumdar harder toDay than she has.” Not proving innocence is somewhat different to proving guilt, and I don't think Bob managed to bridge the gap. So while I'm definitely leaning Mafia on Bob after this, I also find Romanic suspicious for overstating his case. Not enough to vote for Today. Worth a look Tomorrow. While I'm on the subject of DarkCoconut and the OMGUS voting, I think that it's possible to view it both ways. I view each Day as semi-autonomous; that is, while Today builds on Yesterday there is no automatic carry-over of votes from Yesterday to Today (except Final Votes). So it's a reasonable interpretation of the vote record to say DarkCoconut voted twice for players who had voted for her. DarkCoconut obviously takes the view that the first time a voter places a vote is the one that counts, or possibly that provided the suspicion that caused the first vote is maintained, a renewed vote should not be viewed as OMGUS. Bob's claim comes in D03.073, and it definitely feels off to me. In part it's the power that he says he has, and in part what he says the results he got means. The problematic part of the power (to me) is that he gets to choose who to listen to. That makes his claim a full-on investigator. We've already had one proven investigator, one proven false claim, and now we're back to two living. I don't like it much. He claimed to have Listened to Sinjin and Captain Pinkies. They're not who I would have Listened to, but Bob is relatively new. However, I do find his explanation of his results odd. N1 he claims that he heard nothing. He attributes this to Sinjin either having no access to an outside board, or not using access she had. I can't say that I'm surprised that the Mods declined to answer his question, However, he decided, with no evidence, that sinjin “does not have access to another board,” – which would make her Town – rather than that she had access but said nothing. I can't see any grounds for one over the other. On the balance of the above, plus the other points discussed Today, I'm inclined to lean Mafia on Bob. I'll place a vote now (to ensure against problems getting back) while I review some other players and do some non-Mafia stuff. Back before the end of Day, I hope. Vote: Bobaarrgh
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Post by Sister Coyote on Feb 19, 2011 19:19:54 GMT -5
<font style="font-size: 12px;">I'd like to see more from SisC about her vote for Bob toDay. She cited the reasons she gave yesterDay, which didn't grip me at the time, and hasn't given further reasons. Sis, what do you think of the other votes for Bob and his claim? I addressed Bob's claim in post 92 of toDay. I don't find it convincing. I found my reasoning from yesterDay sound, whether it swayed you or not, and the other cases combined with Bob's odd claim have only solidified my feelings on the subject. What else would you like me to say? <font style="font-size: 12px;">[oog] bob have a safe trip as well as thoughts and prayers. [/oog] Glad you got there safe, Bob, and what peeker and everyone else have said.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 19, 2011 19:31:29 GMT -5
As with most things, OMGUS is both conditional and subjective. In this particular case, I think my stated views on Mahaloth throughout the game makes that label a bit dubious.
Also, speaking as a player who tends to gather votes quite easily, any policy that seems to give more weight/cred to the person who votes first and less weight/cred to the person who votes 2nd just rubs me the wrong way and acts as a disincentive to vote where your suspicions lie in certain situations.
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Romola
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Post by Romola on Feb 19, 2011 19:34:49 GMT -5
What else would you like me to say?.... Just some commentary about the other cases and the claim. You don't find the claim convincing, but do you agree that it is overpowered? Do you agree that the 'bussing' confusion is a scum tell on Bob's part? That kind of thing, more detailed commentary on the stuff that has arisen since your Day one vote.
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Romola
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Post by Romola on Feb 19, 2011 19:38:12 GMT -5
NETA, Day 2, goddammit.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Feb 19, 2011 20:24:57 GMT -5
Did you read my post #92 at all? I addressed what I thought about Bob's mistake regarding Bussing there.
I'm inclined to agree with most of the other cases against Bob, and where I disagree with them I think I covered in -- again -- Post #92.
As to his claim...
...As written, I have trouble buying it, because it is another investigative role in a game that seems heavily loaded with them. I'm not sure I'd consider it overpowered if we didn't have one confirmed and one claimed investigator. As peeker said, I usually see eavesdroppers given the option to "listen in" on a random snippet of conversation from another active board -- but no indication of whether that conversation comes from a Scum or Mason board, nor the ability to select a particular person to "listen" to.
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Post by peekercpa on Feb 19, 2011 20:25:03 GMT -5
and this is really not directed at anyone in particular and maybe is more of a Day 1 conversation starter but it annoys the tar out of me so here goes. this whole fascination with omgys (why we use u instead of y is about beyond me as well) is about unnatural, imho. crap, if i am innocent townie and someone comes up with, in my opinion a cruddy case to justify a vote on me why the hell shouldn't i be able to call b.s. and vote them for that without getting jumped on for omgys. matter of fact even if i am guilty non town why the heck not knock the crap out of someone who uses poor logic. i mean to some extent it feels like if i get the first vote down and then if the votee calls no way and then votes because of that then i or someone else is bound to chime in with omgys. seriously, i don't think i have ever seen someone vote for someone else with the sole reason being "well it's because you voted for me". i mean it certainly would not hurt my feelings if we removed this acronym from our lexicon (thank god the fos has kind of moved down the extinction route because i never understood that one either).
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