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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 17:28:12 GMT -5
Post by Mad The Swine on Sept 23, 2007 17:28:12 GMT -5
>.> What, I thought I was quite prompt with checking in. And it's totally not shiny to mess with the voting record like that. Lighten up...please strike my last vote from the voting record.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 17:59:52 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Sept 23, 2007 17:59:52 GMT -5
Sorry, Mad, it's a matter of permanent public record now.
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 18:10:01 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Sept 23, 2007 18:10:01 GMT -5
Let me just say that I'm not going to reveal any information about why I chose to investigate Yatarra. I don't want my reasoning behind investigating people to influence scum actions. If anyone wants to know my reasoning, I'll explain when I'm dead. Further, if I do catch someone in the nighttime doing something very townie (like going into someone's room with a doc bag), I'm going to post exactly what I did today. I'll report fuzzy screens versus successful investigations, and I'll probably post whom I investigated at some point during each day, but I don't see any reason to give more information to the scum than that. if you guys don't want to trust me now, that's fine by me. But I won't go without giving everyone as much information as I collect before I get killed. You can trust or not trust it when, inevitably, death clears the air. Oh, and I'm still suspicious of sinjin. I'm mildly suspicious of Captain Klutz because of his reasoning for voting for me yesterday (not -that- he voted for me, but his explanation for doing so). I no longer have particularly strong suspicions of Idle or Pygmy, beyond my normal paranoia. And Roosh is absolutely right, I'm not going to let the town have any say in what I do. First, because investigative roles don't work very well if they're broadcasted, and second, because I don't believe in letting the scum have any more influence or information than they already do. But what kind of info can you have about Yatarra that the rest of us don't? She's only posted a handfull of times. She voted once for Catinasuit, who (or is it whom?) you voted for 3 times, and as far as I can tell that's it. Then you say you're clamming up because you don't want the scum to get any more information. And then you say that if you reveal fuzzy screens it means you've investigated a pro-towny personage such as the doc or something!! How much info is that to the scum? And you're still suspicious of me and Kaptain Kltuz and yet you still chose to investigate Yattara instead of either of us. WTF. And finally Aren't you two part of the town (crew)?
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 18:49:41 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Sept 23, 2007 18:49:41 GMT -5
But what kind of info can you have about Yatarra that the rest of us don't? She's only posted a handfull of times. She voted once for Catinasuit, who (or is it whom?) you voted for 3 times, and as far as I can tell that's it. Then you say you're clamming up because you don't want the scum to get any more information. And then you say that if you reveal fuzzy screens it means you've investigated a pro-towny personage such as the doc or something!! How much info is that to the scum? Try reading what I wrote again. If I watch a pro-towny power role, I'm not going to out them. I'll just say they did nothing that night. (Unless they were killed) I'm not getting into this with you. This is the last I'm responding on this manner. I'm not letting Roosh have any say in what I do, either, sinjin. The town is comprised of both real townies as well as scum. If I let anyone other than -me- (I know I'm town) determine whom I'm investigating, I may be letting scum influence my actions. Really, I'm not going to get into this with you anymore. Your misreading of my posts and pointless attacks on me, an uncounterclaimed power role, are just reaffirming my suspicions of you.
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 19:10:06 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Sept 23, 2007 19:10:06 GMT -5
But what kind of info can you have about Yatarra that the rest of us don't? She's only posted a handfull of times. She voted once for Catinasuit, who (or is it whom?) you voted for 3 times, and as far as I can tell that's it. Then you say you're clamming up because you don't want the scum to get any more information. And then you say that if you reveal fuzzy screens it means you've investigated a pro-towny personage such as the doc or something!! How much info is that to the scum? And you're still suspicious of me and Kaptain Kltuz and yet you still chose to investigate Yattara instead of either of us. WTF. And finally Aren't you two part of the town (crew)? Okay, now I'm curious. What exactly are you looking for? (I don't expect Diomedes to give a response to any of these things seriously, but I'm curious about you, Sinjin). Because you seem to be asking the wrong sorts of Questions here. What kind of an answer are you expecting? What would you RATHER have Dio say? What would you rather he reveal? And how's it better than what he's currently doing- How would it help the town?Because, it seems to me from your tone that you are upset he didn't investigate you Or capt. Klutz instead last night.... The fact that you want him to waste an investigation on you (If you are truly town) just seems ... well wasteful. I see it instead as perhaps a scummy move by someone who knows they aren't going anywhere for a while, and trying to gain some townie credibility. Or a possible Godfather type of role trying also to gain townie cred. I don't like it one bit. Thusly, what's going on, Sinjin? What are your thoughts on it, rather than being upset at Dio, what would YOU have done better and WHY? Diomedes is doing the right thing here, and you're being obtuse it seems here. He didn't say he'd report fuzzy screens for a doc or such, that'd be foolish. Same with the whole "Why Yattara and not meee!", and finally trying to just throw my name into the whole matter was just kinda childish. He may not know i'm town, and I don't know if He's Town, But i do know ideas that ARE smart for town, and PRO-Town. And I'm glad that Dio can see the ideas that are ProTown as well. Why you cannot see that, I'm curious to know. Because if you're town then you should be corrected (because your views so far ARE anti-town), and if you're scummy, then you should be exposed for it. Balls in your court, Sin. What's your thoughts on the whole Dio matter? and Why/What'd you change, that would be better for town?
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 19:34:43 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Sept 23, 2007 19:34:43 GMT -5
Aww, hell's bells, sinjin, let's stop playing footsie here.
vote: sinjin
If anyone wants an explanation, please see sinjin's anti-town actions of both going after me today, and Roosh yesterday. sinjin wants to exterminate uncounter claimed power roles with no reason greater than "They might be lying!" and it just stinks to high heaven to me.
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 19:43:16 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Sept 23, 2007 19:43:16 GMT -5
Dio said;
And this isn't outing them?
sinjin said:
Dio said;
But you haven't responded at all.
Dio said:
sinjin said;
Dio said;
You're the one who brought up Roosh, not I. And how is the town comprised of both real townies and scum. My town (the crew) does not have scum in it, does yours?
I asked a simple question, what made you investigate Yattara? If I was an investigator I would investigate someone I thought was scummy. You have a couple of people you think are scummy including me and the captain and possibly Cat whom you voted for 3 times. Why would you investigate someone you didn't think was scummy?
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RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 20:08:22 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Sept 23, 2007 20:08:22 GMT -5
Sinjin. ( ) Why do you want to know the answer to that question? I really don't think you're scummy, just really really misinformed and overeager here. But ... can you not see why your questions are bad? Just... look at the questions I asked you. If you can answer them: Mainly WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENTLY, then by all means please share. But Stop harassing the freaking Investigator! feel free to point out what YOU would do differently, but quit trying to ask HIM to explain what HE'S doing. Tit for Tat. Go with Occam's Razor if you must: Maybe he found Yat scummy. There. Just leave it at that and MOVE ON. PLEASE.
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 20:44:31 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Sept 23, 2007 20:44:31 GMT -5
And this isn't outing them? No. If someone does nothing, I'll say they did nothing. If an obviously town-oriented power role does something, I'll say they did nothing. If I see someone does something fishy, then I'll say they did something fishy. Is this concept really that difficult for you to grasp? Nor do I intend to. I'm not going to get into the rhyme and reasons behind whom I choose for investigation. You might play this role differently than I do. We can discuss my strategy on this matter when we're both dead, okay? I'm using 'the town' to refer to the 25 people who are left here. Some of them are 'townies', and some of them are scum. If I knew who was townie and who was scummy, then I'd be more than happy to let the townies tell me who to watch. But if I knew that, then this game would be over mightily quickly, now wouldn't it?
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 21:15:58 GMT -5
Post by whatthefrak on Sept 23, 2007 21:15:58 GMT -5
Dio, are you voting for Sinjin because you think she's scum or because she distrusts you and Roosh?
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 21:37:13 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Sept 23, 2007 21:37:13 GMT -5
Dio, are you voting for Sinjin because you think she's scum or because she distrusts you and Roosh? Don't get me wrong here: I know there's no particularly good reason to trust Roosh or I right now: I haven't produced any information that verifies my role as town watcher; if I out a scum because of my Watching, then I think I'll feel free to be confirmed. What I don't like is the fact that sinjin places votes against us when there's some small evidence (lack of counterclaiming) that we might be town power roles, and no damning evidence against us. That's why I found her scummy (not 100% scummy, but scummy enough for a Day one vote, you know?) yesterday. That, combined with her attempts today to continue accusing me of underhandedness, as well as trying to unearth information on my method of selecting my investigation targets, seems scummy to me. Honestly, I don't see the reason for anyone to try to outguess an investigator's target except for scum. (maybe a town-oriented Vig would, in addition, I suppose, but we don't yet have any evidence that there is one in this game)
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 22:22:47 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 23, 2007 22:22:47 GMT -5
Roosh, I'd be careful about writing posts sounding like you're sure of something. You make mention a few times of Dio being the investigator, but I don't see much of what he's done so far to show it. A fuzzy screen and a sleeping member. If town, great. If scum, well, it wouldn't be very hard to just make those answers up. Right now I'm giving him the benifet of the doubt, but I'm not automatically crossing out the possibility he could be lying. You seem to have from how I read your posts.
Anyway, my suspect list is as follows:
Drain Bead and hockey monkey are at the top, for going ons yesterday (DB for multiple things the other Day and Hockey for being on every bandwagon,various vibes I get from her, and disagreeing with many stances and actions she did the other Day (like not caring to one off vote for awhile, even at the last minute, and seemingly ready to jump on other people so they'd roleclaim).
So Vote Drain Bead who was my top suspect yesterDay and remains so toDay. For now. Subject to change pending new info, insights, and maybe even depending votes needed for a lynch.
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 23:34:45 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Sept 23, 2007 23:34:45 GMT -5
Dio, are you voting for Sinjin because you think she's scum or because she distrusts you and Roosh? Don't get me wrong here: I know there's no particularly good reason to trust Roosh or I right now: I haven't produced any information that verifies my role as town watcher; if I out a scum because of my Watching, then I think I'll feel free to be confirmed. What I don't like is the fact that sinjin places votes against us when there's some small evidence (lack of counterclaiming) that we might be town power roles, and no damning evidence against us. That's why I found her scummy (not 100% scummy, but scummy enough for a Day one vote, you know?) yesterday. That, combined with her attempts today to continue accusing me of underhandedness, as well as trying to unearth information on my method of selecting my investigation targets, seems scummy to me. Honestly, I don't see the reason for anyone to try to outguess an investigator's target except for scum. (maybe a town-oriented Vig would, in addition, I suppose, but we don't yet have any evidence that there is one in this game) bolding mine Who is this us you are speaking of? I'm pretty sure I only voted twice yesterday. Once for Roosh before he claimed and once for Dotchan. I never voted for you. And I'm sorry if I found your choice of investigatee strange but that's the way it is. I asked what I thought was a simple question and now I'm scum. Over-react much?
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Day Two
Sept 23, 2007 23:44:22 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Sept 23, 2007 23:44:22 GMT -5
Who is this us you are speaking of? I'm pretty sure I only voted twice yesterday. Once for Roosh before he claimed and once for Dotchan. I never voted for you. Sorry, you accused me of being scummy, not voted for me. And, as I recall, you madea pretty big stink about unvoting Roosh. Whatever. What I find to be scummy are your twisting of my statements in a an attempt to cast me in a negative light. And your dogged attempts to out information that really shouldn't be made public. Really, I don't see anything that you're doing to be beneficial to the town. But, yeah, I overreact a lot.
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 0:27:20 GMT -5
Post by Zeriel on Sept 24, 2007 0:27:20 GMT -5
Well, first of all, I'm going to go back to my primary scum candidate from yesterDay, because they're still doing the same scummy fishing expeditions already toDay.
vote sinjin.
In other remarks, in no particular order:
I'm not 100% sure why the scum would have left so many tempting targets up for grabs, but at the same time, it's so early in the game that trying to read true or false claiming into "why didn't they kill a revealed power role" is going to be WIFOM, so there's not really any percentage in doing it.
Similarly, I am very open to people suggesting courses for the power roles to take, but as I harped over and over in M5--the power roles can take guidance or suggestions from the town, but never should take orders, and if anyone is trying to "force" or cajole the power roles into following a plan they will get my vote.
sinjin is at the top of my personal scum list right now for demanding all kinds of information that s/he has no right to, and also for trying to assert control over diomedes' investigations by demanding the reasoning be shown. Beyond that, no one's tripping my radar very hard.
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 7:07:41 GMT -5
Post by whatthefrak on Sept 24, 2007 7:07:41 GMT -5
I'm not perceiving Sinjin as trying to control Diomedes' use of power. While I can't speak for certain on the reasoning behind her actions, I can speak for certain on my reasoning and speculate that they may be similar. (They could be completely different too, but that spoils my argument.)
I regard Diomedes' posts through a veil of suspicion, and nothing he's said thus far has been able to clear it. I wouldn't otherwise have discussed this, for the fact that he could just as easily be town as not, but there's enough of a spotlight on this matter that I don't feel I'm doing any harm that hasn't already been done. The investigation results are fishy. Though, I definitely don't want any further explanation of them, because if he's town, the whole group doesn't need to know, and we need to leave the subject alone, and if he's scum, he's not going to give straight answers anyway.
So I guess why I'm defending Sinjin at the moment is that I understand what she's trying to say. I just wouldn't have said it.
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Death By Irony
FGM
The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
I'm my own mind-altering substance!
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 7:12:13 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Sept 24, 2007 7:12:13 GMT -5
I still find Diomedes scummy for his bandwagon jumping yesterday, but I am inclined to believe that his investigation results are accurate, at least. I'm also leaning towards the opinion that he report sleeping results as just "I saw someone sleeping" unless that person's on the block and Diomedes believes him/her to be town; otherwise drop names on scummy/fuzzy screen results.
Sinjin is also very close to the top of my suspicion list, but she did claim to be Crew yesterDay and also claimed to have some kind of minor power, so for now I'll just FoS sinjin for his anti-town behavior of trying to direct power-roles: if Diomedes is town, telling him what to do makes it easier for scum to thwart him; if Diomedes is scum, directing him won't be very useful anyway.
Unfortunately yesterDay most of my thoughts were circled around how not to get Ramiro-me lynched, so I'm gonna have to go over my notes and try to make sense of the posts that didn't get eaten in the crash.
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 7:17:07 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Sept 24, 2007 7:17:07 GMT -5
Well, first of all, I'm going to go back to my primary scum candidate from yesterDay, because they're still doing the same scummy fishing expeditions already toDay. vote sinjin. <snip> sinjin is at the top of my personal scum list right now for demanding all kinds of information that s/he has no right to, and also for trying to assert control over diomedes' investigations by demanding the reasoning be shown. Beyond that, no one's tripping my radar very hard. 1) Can I have a little evidence of the fishing expeditions I was supposedly involved in yesterday? I only voted for two people and didn't demand any information from either. 2) I wasn't demanding all kinds of information from Dio today and I'm not trying to assert control over his investigations. As I keep stating, I asked what I thought was a simple question. Subsequently Roosh and Dio jumped all over me. And now you to. Jeesh.
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 7:58:55 GMT -5
Post by Yattara on Sept 24, 2007 7:58:55 GMT -5
I am a she. Second, I want those tapes. No way are they going into a private collection. Like Dio saw, I was sleeping last night. Sorry for missing the Night, I was otherwise engaged this weekend. Why he chose to investigate me, I don't know. Good to see the SK got offed. Sorry, Mad, for not believing you earlier about a Mason-group. Welcome back, Dotchan.
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 7:59:35 GMT -5
Post by Yattara on Sept 24, 2007 7:59:35 GMT -5
And yes, I did vote for Cat yesterDay. Since people were curious.
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 8:17:52 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 24, 2007 8:17:52 GMT -5
Hi everybody, First of all, welcome back dotchan. I promise not to lead any bandwagons against you unless you really deserve it. So I have read through the remains of Day 1, given that half the posts are missing, and a few people are looking a bit scummy. 1. Pygmy Rugger:You commented that "The mods did say that there was at least one character that wasn't on the wiki, bt I can't imagine them using a character that wasn't in the show or movie." Then you followed up "I can't tell if you're joking or not, but I highly doubt one scum would say, "my name's not on the list!" and the rest of the scum would follow in suit. I wouldn't doubt if one or more of the aforementioned group were scum, but not all of them. " Can you tell me why you made your two posts given that they are contradictory. So what extra knowledge do you have? 2. Sinjin"Again the 'hammer' thing and does anybody but me think the '13 votes or so' bit is kind of contrived. No crew will want to vote 14 or 15 no matter what with this philosophy because crew won't know for sure if they're right or wrong. Scum know who is who and can get on the band wagon early, so don't have to vote last. Surprise, surprise they are never 'hammered' the next day. I think this kind of thinking is very dangerous. And yeah a scum would never assume the last two voters made an "innocent mistake" He wouldn't have to assume anything." This just seems scummy to me, but I cannot quite put me finger on it, if only because it seems very sure of what the scum strategy might be. 3. Drainbead:You voted for pygmy rugger, saying he was late on all the bandwagons, but he was not a late vote on the Roosh bandwagon. Also, you voted for him, gave a brief explanation and that was the end of it. Nothing else you have said really seems to mention him at all. It seems like placing a vote for the sake of making sure you have voted. 4. atarus:"I'd prefer a Cat lynch to a dotchan lynch. But I prefer a dotchan lynch to a no-lynch, because with a no-lynch we solve no debates, and the distractions and clusterfucking continues into toMorrow. " And yet, you unvoted me and did not vote again. Any reason for not following through on your original preference. 5. HockeyMonkeyThe same problem goes for you as well. "Sorry, but we can't be afraid of a bandwagon in this game. It's either Bandwagon or No Lynch. I certainly don't want to end a day on No Lynch. " Then you vote for Tragic as a low poster. "No, it's not a vote for No Lynch. It's a vote for Tragic. I need to go blow off some steam and come back to this tomorrow. I won't let a No Lynch happen because of my vote. I'll change it if need be, but I have a list like Blaster of people I won't be voting for. I just can't believe the sheer volume of material this day has generated. Frustrated isn't even the right word. It's not strong enough. Jebus rutting Christ" And then you decide not to vote for a lynch, which is contrary to your previous statement, but you decide to vote atarus. Effectively, moving the town further towards a no-lynch. "We don't have time to build a case against anyone else, but I can't vote for someone I believe to be town. Who then should I vote for? atarus has been further down on my probably scum list, but since everyone near the top has claimed, I suppose it's time to. Vote atarus." Of the five above, I find HockeyMonkey and atarus the most suspicious for the reasons given above. Switching from a "We must Lynch" to "We can't lynch" stance looks scummy to me. Although I would like to hear back from all of them as to how they can explain the above?
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Blaster Master
Mome Rath
The player formerly know as BLAM!
Now 34.788% less repellant to Sharks! :( [on:I WANT TO DIE!][of:I WANT TO LIVE!]
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 8:22:44 GMT -5
Post by Blaster Master on Sept 24, 2007 8:22:44 GMT -5
Oh good grief. I had actually developed a pretty strong case agaisnt Greedy Smurf over the weekend. Unfortunately, I thought he was alliance scum, not SK scum, so that line of reasoning may not work against others. Anyway, I'm going to catch up and make a more substantial post on my perspective of how information theory affects the gameplay (as I alluded to at the end of Yesterday).
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Blaster Master
Mome Rath
The player formerly know as BLAM!
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 9:00:36 GMT -5
Post by Blaster Master on Sept 24, 2007 9:00:36 GMT -5
Let me make a clarification on my role, because I think you might've gotten it a bit off: I'm not quite a beat cop, I'm a watcher. It's my understanding thatthis role requires a mafia killing along the liens of the Treasure Island game: The mafia must not only choose a target, but also a member of their company to do the deed. If Yattara had been chosen by the scum to kill someone, I would have seen her do it. Similarly, if the scum or Greedy had chosen to off her, I would have seen that. However, just because she was in bed last night doesn't mean she's entirely off the non-shiney list. I don't think I would have seen her confer with the other scum. That would make my role -hugely- more powerful than I think it is. Assuming you are who you claim to be, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, as I see the debate has gone. I agree with the method you are taking of not revealing any more information than is necessary. A further advantage of this system is, if you actually DID see a pro-crew action, and she later claims to be a pro-crew power role, you can confirm or deny (a la MHaye in MV in Monk-gate). However, I do have a word of advice from Mad's play in M4. Please feel free to take it or not, but please give no indication whether you do or don't. While I can understand why you watched Yattara, if your role works as I'd expect it does, then you're better off trying to predict scum targets rather than predict scum, because you should have a higher accuracy at that AND it might help scare scum away from targets they'd you might see them kill. Either way, it might be helpful for you to read up on parts of the pirate game for your role.
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Blaster Master
Mome Rath
The player formerly know as BLAM!
Now 34.788% less repellant to Sharks! :( [on:I WANT TO DIE!][of:I WANT TO LIVE!]
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 9:02:17 GMT -5
Post by Blaster Master on Sept 24, 2007 9:02:17 GMT -5
Okay, now I'm going to draft my manifesto on how information theory applies to this game. This may take a while...
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 9:14:53 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 24, 2007 9:14:53 GMT -5
I'm still trying to soak up what I can from Day 1. What a fucking mess.
As for the Night 1 deaths, in previous games I've seen both sides advocate both sides of the debate as to which is more important to determine between who killed who and why they were killed. I'd prefer a bit of insight into both, but we're not going to get it, at least not yet. So I'm not going to spend much time in that particular area of WIFOM.
We missed a no lynch yesterday by the skin of our teeth, and while I know that all of us who voted for dot have innocent blood on our hands, I'm dubious as to whether it was doubt of her being scum alone that placed us so close to a no lynch. I don't want to re-hash the whole "lynch vs no lynch" debate yet, though. Each Day's circumstances are going to be different, but participation at critical times is something I think we need to be VERY aware of, even though it is very difficult.
I for one will be keeping a close eye on those who do not put a vote down if they are going to have to be away from the game at a time when there is at least one bandwagon building against a lynch candidate. I don't care if your vote is a one-off or not, just put your views down on paper. We all can't be here 24/7, but I hope we're all perceptive enough to know when things start to get interesting. If you can't be here when things are interesting, the least you can do is leave a vote and some analysis behind in your stead.
All of this being said, I no longer find some of the statements made by drain and Hockey as suspicious as I did yesterDay. Now I need to go solidify who I DO find suspicious.
[gendernazi]Oh...and dot, sinjin is a girl too.[/gendernazi]
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 9:30:57 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Sept 24, 2007 9:30:57 GMT -5
<snip> 1. Pygmy Rugger:You commented that "The mods did say that there was at least one character that wasn't on the wiki, bt I can't imagine them using a character that wasn't in the show or movie." Then you followed up "I can't tell if you're joking or not, but I highly doubt one scum would say, "my name's not on the list!" and the rest of the scum would follow in suit. I wouldn't doubt if one or more of the aforementioned group were scum, but not all of them. " Can you tell me why you made your two posts given that they are contradictory. So what extra knowledge do you have? <snip> These two quotes of mine were also quoted yesterDay, I'm not sure if it was by you or not. It may have been one of the posts that got lost? I fail to see how these two thoughts are contradictory. The first one says that I didn't think the mods would simply make up a character that wasn't on the show or movie (even if it wasn't on the wiki). The second one says I don't think any scum group would be stupid enough to all come out and say their names weren't on the wiki (although they could still be names from the show or movie), thereby outing their entire group. Therefore, of all the people who claimed not to have a name from the wiki, I hypothesized that not all of them would be scum. Does that clear up the perceived contradiction?
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 10:08:09 GMT -5
Post by Zeriel on Sept 24, 2007 10:08:09 GMT -5
1) Can I have a little evidence of the fishing expeditions I was supposedly involved in yesterday? I only voted for two people and didn't demand any information from either. 2) I wasn't demanding all kinds of information from Dio today and I'm not trying to assert control over his investigations. As I keep stating, I asked what I thought was a simple question. Subsequently Roosh and Dio jumped all over me. And now you to. Jeesh. 1) Your fishing expedition yesterday = doubting any and all un-counterclaimed power roles, solely because "but what if they're lying, seriously?" That's a waste of time--they're both big names, unlikely to not be in a Firefly-themed game, and we have plenty of more fertile waters to explore. 2) By attempting to force Diomedes into explaining his reasoning, you are trying to: a) reveal that reasoning to the scum, enabling them to avoid it. b) assert control over his strategy, as the only logical follow-up to "what's your strategy?" is "I approve" or "I disapprove, use this other strategy instead" or "I disapprove, therefore you're scum because all townies think exactly like me." Combined with the push on Roosh yesterday, and the semantic games you briefly tried to play today (in which you asserted the town and scum are two different things, even though in context the "town" that diomedes has to convince IS comprised of both as the day-voting public.) I'm very comfortable with my vote here. I'm not apt to really be comfortable with any pushes on any of the claimed pro-town roles thus far until we start seeing people who have powers at significant odds with their role or people with pro-town names ending up with pro-scum alignments, indicating the universe has been canted more than usual.
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Blaster Master
Mome Rath
The player formerly know as BLAM!
Now 34.788% less repellant to Sharks! :( [on:I WANT TO DIE!][of:I WANT TO LIVE!]
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 10:40:55 GMT -5
Post by Blaster Master on Sept 24, 2007 10:40:55 GMT -5
Okay, let's begin by defining certain variables:
Let n,m, and s be the number of total players, masons, and scum reflectively. Obviously, n > m + s otherwise the game is completely broken.
Let Xi,j be the information that player i has of player j's role (regardless of alignment). That is, if he has no information (like at the very beginning) then Xi,j = 0. Also, obviously, Xi,i = 1 (that is, a player obviously has 100% certainty about his own role).
Let Ii be the total information that player i has. To simplify, I'll use subscripts like m for masons, s for scum, etc. IOW, for a give player i we can say his total information is determinable by this forumla: Ii = 1/n Σnj=1 Xi,j
Thus, at the start of the game, we can determine several values:
Ii = 1/n for any player not excepted below. Im = m/n for each mason. Is = s/n for each scum.
However, this isn't a complete picture, because these values are affected by certain amounts of shared information. Further, based on the information in the setup, we can use some of the additional information to weight certain bits of information or to obtain solid numbers for some of these factors. Further, depending on a given player's role, and even on other information out there, the weights of knowledge about certain roles changes drastically. Thus, Xi,j is not simply a real-valued number, but actually a real-valued vector.
Let r be the number of roles in the game. Obviously, r <= n. Also, let Wk be the real-valued for role k such that Σrk=1 Wk = 1. Thus, we can determine the value of Xi,j:
Xi,j = Ci,j Σrk=1 Wi,kXi,j,k where Ci,j is the certainty factor of that information.
The certainty factor is something I'm going to focus on for a moment, because this is one of the huge advantages of scum. For instance, say we're in an open setup and someone claims doctor. Obviously, this affects the various Xi,j,k values, such that we have good information to know he's not vanilla (since why would a vanilla, other than Winston, claim a power role), and we know he's probably not some other power role. Thus, those information values associated with that player being the doctor and scum are the only ones that have non-negligible values at this point. However, a crewmember will not be able to determine with any particularly large certainty which of those is correct, thus, even though he has more information, it doesn't say a whole lot. OTOH, scum will know for sure if that player is telling the truth or not, and, for the same reasons, be able to eliminate all of the other possible roles (if that player is, in fact, not scum himself) and thus have gained a substantial amount of information.
What this means is, in an open setup we have an established value for r AND thus each player will be able to determine Wi,k for each role. This also means that, in an open setup, Ci,j is determined solely by that player's judgment of the evidence available. Meanwhile, in a closed setup, the certainty is much lower precisely because no player has any idea what r or Wi,k is. However, unlike the town, scum certainty is NOT based only on judgment of evidence, but knowledge of that individual's role. For instance, prior to a claim, scum based their certainty on the available evidence. However, after a claim, distinct knowledge of that player's alignment gives them a huge advantage in certainty. And, thus, this is precisely why the certainty factor is a huge advantage for scum, and why a closed setup is an advantage for scum, because they will always have a larger degree of certain about a players alignment relative to their own than non-scum.
Further, the scum will have distinct information prior to when the town is able to obtain it. For instance, when Dotchan [Ver. 1] made her claim of being Ramiro, the scum knew several things the rest of us did NOT know, including that her claim was highly certain to be true (because she wasn't scum) AND that there were definitely made up names in the universe.
...I have to go to lunch though, so I'll follow up with how I think this applies to late Day 1.
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 10:43:37 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Sept 24, 2007 10:43:37 GMT -5
I'm not apt to really be comfortable with any pushes on any of the claimed pro-town roles thus far until we start seeing people who have powers at significant odds with their role or people with pro-town names ending up with pro-scum alignments, indicating the 'verse has been canted more than usual. I agree. I wanted more data from Dawn to see about my ideas, and so far it seems to ring true. Operative= "bad guy" name=> Dude was a bad guy. I'm pleased to see the Theme has been stuck to so far. Only anomaly- apparently RandomAss Random names from nowhere can be on the Town's side (*coughs*Sorry Dotchan*coughs). I will fully take her blood on my hands, as I thought she was lying completely to save herself. Now, that I realize such is the case, I'll be a bit more forgiving in the future of such names. But not if there seem to be a high number of them. Cookies has already pointed out she too has a non-ThemeNameGame or something similar, so that's already 2 out of 28 people. I can believe 3 non-Famous names (bit more than 10%), but anything more than that will make me WIFOM. ~~~~ Sinjin. I do dislike Sinjin's agression. It could be a lynch I'd get behind, but I feel its too early to do anything like that. I believe her to in all likely hood be unhelpful with her ideas, but she's new, and probably an overEager Townie of the Negative kind. If such is the case, I really wouldn't mind after the game asking her why she thinks her ideas are pro-town. And though you did name me as one of the people "Who jumped on you", I did not vote for you, I believe I pointed out that voting for you is meh, because I believe you're probably town. But then afterwards, you continued on your Fishing expedition. It makes me wonder. Especially since you have yet to retract your ideas (and i still wonder "What would YOU do differently, and WHY is that MORE helpful?" but i fear I'll have no answer on this question). ~~~~~~~~~~ Also, I am trying to stay out of discussions, because I want the lesser people to speak more. Namely one of you, who I am inclined to believe is lurking. Yes, I've called you out several times, and each time you were evasive. You seem to show up when others call your name, give a quick retort that means NOTHING and then fade qyuckly away. In fact here's a posting summary of Tragic: Reply 413:From where I sit I see 2 potential votes to cast this round - MadTheSwine and dotchan. They're also - at present - those who have the most attention targeted to them. In a sense that could be seen as a bandwagon vote or simply because the evidence against them is convincing enough. I don't feel ready to vote yet but I promise once I've had a chance to do a review of the early days that I was happily ignoring for some time I'll have a better idea of who I want to vote.
And FTR - I'm a newbie to this style of Mafia games. I have played in 2 others but they're paced a heck of a lot differently and not nearly half as intense, lol. Reply 787: Well.. that was a lot to read through.. and I skimmed most of it to be honest. But in the end I just don't feel comfortable lynching dotchan. That could come back and bite me in the ass but I'm not convinced and I certainly don't want to lynch a crew member.
I abstain from this vote. Hopefully we'll have more insight and discussion on the next day that I can draw from more firmly. Night 2: Reply 23: "I had an inkling you were crew *sigh* Aw well.. that's the way the cookie crumbles."You're right, Roosh, in saying that I had nothing new to add in Day 1. I collected all the evidence that I saw fit to use and made my own judgment - that I wasn't comfortable lynching someone who I doubted was an Alliance member. I didn't want to be another voice who reiterated points over and over again - gee I wonder why we broke the board! I didn't want to post unless I had something intelligent to say and I suppose I need to take that filter off myself now since it doesn't seem to matter so long as I have an opinion that y'all can trace. The way I'm reading that is you started out suspicious of Dotchan and MTS. But you don't want to vote for fear of looking like a bandwagoner. So you will wait for more information. 300 posts later, you feel Dotchan is Crew. You don't explain why. You just feel she doesn't deserve your vote, and then you choose No Lynch over all other targets that you may have considered as well. During the night you point out again that you felt Dotchan was crew. A subtle reminder again that you didn't vote for her. How nice. Perhaps you should have tried to convince us of WHY SHE WAS CREW? Then today, you stated that during day 1 you collected all the evidence you needed to see Dotchan1.0 as crew. And you seem also to point out that you don't like leaving a paper trail. This is to me seems Scummy. Lurking Scum scummy. You popped up said you might vote for dotchan, then you leave, only to return point out that you believe dotchan is town, and then leave again, only returning to gloat over the town at night with your "I told you so" post during the night. It's like you're trying to appear under the radar, but still in a pro-town light, because "hey! I didn't vote for the town!" And you felt Dotchan was townie enough to not vote for her, but you didn't make ANY attempts to save her life or convince otherwise. You just let her die, content at least in knowing that YOU weren't going to have the blood on your hands. And your post today is just frustrating. This is a game of information, and evidence. You may not like leaving paper trails, and you may not like "repeating what others have already said" then why not post with your own ideas BEFORE them? I see you as just waiting your time, stating a quick opinion and then leaving. Of all the lesser active players, I think you are the most active at lurking and hiding under the radar. "I collected all the evidence that I saw fit to use and made my own judgment - that I wasn't comfortable lynching someone who I doubted was an Alliance member."Why didn't YOU SHARE this information, then? If you were so content in how it cleared dotchan, did you not think that perhaps we would listen to clear cut evidence? Because right now, I think you don't have anything, and you're just following coattails. So until i hear more CLEAR ideas and evidence from you, or until there is a better lynch candidate in my eyes, I feel comfortable with putting a little bit of pressure on the lurker. color=Blue]Vote Tragic.[ [/color]
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Sept 24, 2007 10:44:36 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Sept 24, 2007 10:44:36 GMT -5
Vote Tragic stupid no edit.
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