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Post by guiri on Apr 11, 2011 5:15:26 GMT -5
I have so much trouble scum-hunting, I've decided to just hunt for Townies instead. Even that seemed difficult, but with the Lynched FCOD flipping Scum, I think I've found some Townies. The first four votes on FCOD were archangel, septimus, LightFoot, and renata, and I assume all four of us are Town. (I include Day 1 votes. LightFoot voted FCOD early both Days.) Obviously I'm only 100% certain of the Towniness of archangel and myself but, also obviously, I explicitly invite LightFoot and renata to accept membership in our own group of semi-confirmed pseudo-masons, or "Archangel's choir", whatever we want to call ourselves. I'll concede that between Renata's confirmation of your power, Story's expressed suspicions of you (with a pinch of salt, given his vote on FCoD) and your Day 1 vote on FCoD, you're looking less scummy than yesterDay however: (It's true that neither renata nor I had a vote on FCOD for most of Day 2, but we encouraged suspicion of FCOD. Did you mean to write "she" instead of "we"? I agree that Lightfoot comes out very Townie as a result of her Day 1 and 2 votes on FCoD. I'd also include Sister Coyote (3-1) and Mental (4-1). It gets a little fuzzier after that, FCoD voted Lightfoot (4-2), Septimus voted Lightfoot (4-3), Renata unvoted FCoD (3-3, a tie), Joanie voted Lightfoot (4-3, FCoD now second), then Inner made it (5-3). Suburban's vote looks good and I wonder how it fits into Renata's case on him. His vote pushed FCoD back into contention. The fuzzy bit is where he mentions seeing Lightfoot's claim "on preview" when the claim came 25 minutes earlier. He may be scum sensing a swing back to FCoD and wanted to be early on the wagon but his whole approach to the Ed/Daphne thing has me leaning Town and seeing this as a good vote. Story faced a tie between Lightfoot and FCoD at 4 votes apiece with Septimus just one vote behind. He poked Septimus in #229, defended Lightfoot in #233 and went on to vote FCoD in the same post. That vote pushed FCoD back into the lead (which could have earned Story plenty of Town-cred had he not left the hotel!), so obviously scum had decided to bus by this time so I suspect any votes after this to be null tells.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Apr 11, 2011 5:28:09 GMT -5
so here are my thoughts on the points i brought up earlier. i won't discuss the vig portion as this has been discussed in my other posts.
1. if daphne can be kidnapped and can be rescued, then the rescuer is fred or velma (or scrappy). of course the shaggy role is unsettling as it doesn't mean the gang are all town. there's a dog catcher and dog trainer. so does that mean scooby also has a 'dognapper' and rescuer? is scooby as important or more important than daphne?
2. are scooby snacks for finding scooby then? does the person who gives all or certain number of snacks by a certain time to scooby 'free' him? does that person discover then who scooby is and control him?
3. as for renata's dream, can you chime in septimus? renata has deferred explanation to you.
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Post by guiri on Apr 11, 2011 6:41:02 GMT -5
1. if daphne can be kidnapped and can be rescued, then the rescuer is fred or velma (or scrappy). of course the shaggy role is unsettling as it doesn't mean the gang are all town. there's a dog catcher and dog trainer. so does that mean scooby also has a 'dognapper' and rescuer? is scooby as important or more important than daphne? This is interesting. I'd expect the Dog Catcher to be the dognapper but I've no idea how the role of Dog Trainer fits in with the Town Searcher. @ Mental, does your PM mention Daphne by name? Do you know if you can find missing dogs too? How likely is it that scum can both kidnap Daphne (and control her vote) AND can dognap Scooby (for whatever purpose)?
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Post by septimus on Apr 11, 2011 6:52:10 GMT -5
[1] Did you mean to write "she" instead of "we"? I agree that Lightfoot comes out very Townie as a result of her Day 1 and 2 votes on FCoD. I'd also include Sister Coyote (3-1) and Mental (4-1). ... [2] Suburban's vote looks good and I wonder how it fits into Renata's case on him. His vote pushed FCoD back into contention. The fuzzy bit is where he mentions seeing Lightfoot's claim "on preview" when the claim came 25 minutes earlier. He may be scum sensing a swing back to FCoD and wanted to be early on the wagon but his whole approach to the Ed/Daphne thing has me leaning Town and seeing this as a good vote. 1. IIRC I implied I was still suspicious of FCOD during Day 2. In any event, my Towniness is now so obvious it seems anti-Town to waste time defending it. ;D 2. A 25-minute delay between Reply and Post doesn't seem unlikely, especially if there was a Preview or RL task in between. Obviously I find Suburban to be Townish also. Why do you mention his "approach to the Ed/Daphne thing" ? @ gnarlycharlie ("as for renata's dream") - I'm guessing that she got some sort of PM from the Moderator that made her suspect I'm a Townie. But even if she did see some sign last Night, it means little except that I'm a semi-confirmed Townie, and I've already let the rest of you in on that "secret." If my one-time power really did work, Three PM's were generated. It seems best to omit further detail, still hoping Scum (Hi, Ed! *) waste a NK on me. * - Just kidding
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Post by special on Apr 11, 2011 6:52:51 GMT -5
I don't know what Snacks are for, or how many the players have, or even if it's good or bad to have them. I'll guess that It may not be particularly anti-Town to give Snacks to septimus. special ed has been flaunting his gifts of Snacks, demonstrating receipt of at least ten Snacks from the Moderator if my count is correct. Only four other players have proven that they had as much as a single Snack. (The rules made me think everyone would get at least one Snack. Did anyone ask Julie about that?) I don't know why players are so reluctant to pass them around (give them to me if you don't know any other Townies ), or even reveal how many they have. One of the players asked me what the questions about Snacks were for. If you were to blurt out "I got 3 Snacks on the morning in question", would it help Scum much? Maybe (though they already know you're Town ). Even a cryptic comment might have some use, eventually. renata finally admitted that she had an even number of Snacks (possibly zero?) added to her account on Morning 2, but most players have volunteered no information at all. As I've said, the Snacks I've given out were mostly just naive gestures of presumed Towny affinity. I see (sadly) this was vindicated in the cases of Inner Stickler and Romanic. @ Special Ed - I'd like to hear what you think Snacks are for, and how you choose recipients. And, speaking of Special Ed: Here's a current player list with claims so far.... 2. Mr. Special Ed, Daphne, Kidnap VictimYou use color blue, but did you actually claim Town? Or just hope we'd assume that Daphne is so sweet and innocent she must be a good girl? You did write "Scum can control my vote" and never answered how they would "control" your vote. I wonder if there's another message board somewhere where you're chortling "perhaps I might have written 'strongly influence'". ;D 3 points: 1. I don't trust you. 2. Never underestimate a Scume's desire to bus for cred. 3. I'm Town.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Apr 11, 2011 7:05:39 GMT -5
scooby, where are you? or maybe more appropriately, scooby, who are you? i have snacks for you.
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Post by Renata on Apr 11, 2011 7:14:08 GMT -5
Good lord, Septimus, if you lay it on any thicker I might have to vote you on general principle. You are not confirmed, I repeat, not confirmed. I have, overnight, thought of a potential (if very speculative) rationale for a scum to have the type of power you've demonstrated, so I want just a bit more assurance. Namely, you say it's a one-shot thing, and you used it on three people last night. I'd like those other two to confirm.
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Post by Renata on Apr 11, 2011 7:19:59 GMT -5
I would defend myself here, but I'm not really sure I understand why you're voting for me. I think it's because: Point 1 I suppose I can't really argue with. Point 2 assumes that Scum will never defend Town, which you know is not the case. Point 3 sounds like you needed a third point for your list, and Opal was busy... If I've misunderstood you, please correct me. Point three is I got a twinge from your first post after FCOD's claim yesterday, which only got stronger once others started going after his claim forcefully, and you followed suit more than anyone else. I'll bring up those posts first, then go back and look at the other stuff. But still -- you can't have missed me questioning you yesterday, or my negative response to Storyteller's summation of your likely scumminess (or rather, your lack therof). Why boil down my vote to just "instinct" and "ask Opal"?
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Post by Renata on Apr 11, 2011 7:26:42 GMT -5
Suburban's vote looks good and I wonder how it fits into Renata's case on him. His vote pushed FCoD back into contention. You note yourself that the very next vote on FCOD is Storyteller, who was bussing. If that one was "giving up on FCOD", why not the one just prior to that? Especially with Lightfoot's claim. What I'm not entirely clear on myself is why there was no major move to Septimus. I think my case was more than adequate, after all. I need to look at the full order of votes at some point.
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Post by BobArrgh on Apr 11, 2011 7:42:58 GMT -5
@Charlie: The "Opal" meme goes back a few years to the Straight Dope. Apparently, she was a stickler for the proper number of items in a list. Her contention was that a list had to have at least 3 items. Thus, whenever anyone has only 2 items in a list, it is customary to add "Ask Opal" as the third item.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Apr 11, 2011 7:48:25 GMT -5
@ Charlie: The "Opal" meme goes back a few years to the Straight Dope. Apparently, she was a stickler for the proper number of items in a list. Her contention was that a list had to have at least 3 items. Thus, whenever anyone has only 2 items in a list, it is customary to add "Ask Opal" as the third item. ha ha ha! thanks.
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Post by guiri on Apr 11, 2011 7:57:32 GMT -5
but we encouraged suspicion of FCOD. [1] Did you mean to write "she" instead of "we"? 1. IIRC I implied I was still suspicious of FCOD during Day 2. In any event, my Towniness is now so obvious it seems anti-Town to waste time defending it. ;D You may have implied suspicion but you certainly did not encourage it: - you called the case against him "weak" in #227- You called your own vote on him "weak" in #261- You suggested that you wouldn't even have voted him had abstention been an option in #284- After 6 players had questioned his role and claim, you still wanted to hear from others before "considering" moving your vote in #305but we encouraged suspicion of FCOD. I agree that Lightfoot comes out very Townie as a result of her Day 1 and 2 votes on FCoD. I'd also include Sister Coyote (3-1) and Mental (4-1). ... [2] Suburban's vote looks good and I wonder how it fits into Renata's case on him. His vote pushed FCoD back into contention. The fuzzy bit is where he mentions seeing Lightfoot's claim "on preview" when the claim came 25 minutes earlier. He may be scum sensing a swing back to FCoD and wanted to be early on the wagon but his whole approach to the Ed/Daphne thing has me leaning Town and seeing this as a good vote. 2. A 25-minute delay between Reply and Post doesn't seem unlikely, especially if there was a Preview or RL task in between. Obviously I find Suburban to be Townish also. Why do you mention his "approach to the Ed/Daphne thing" ? Because the vote on its own was either a critical Town vote on a scum bandwagon OR a scum, anticipating a vote swing off Lightfoot, bussing a fellow scum to get Town cred. Given my previous read on him, I suspect the former. If I'd had no previous read, the vote would be a null tell.
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Post by guiri on Apr 11, 2011 8:05:52 GMT -5
Suburban's vote looks good and I wonder how it fits into Renata's case on him. His vote pushed FCoD back into contention. You note yourself that the very next vote on FCOD is Storyteller, who was bussing. If that one was "giving up on FCOD", why not the one just prior to that? Especially with Lightfoot's claim. Yeah, Suburban's vote is where the fuzziness starts as I mentioned in the same paragraph. I gave a possible scum motivation and my read of the vote: The fuzzy bit is where he mentions seeing Lightfoot's claim "on preview" when the claim came 25 minutes earlier. He may be scum sensing a swing back to FCoD and wanted to be early on the wagon but his whole approach to the Ed/Daphne thing has me leaning Town and seeing this as a good vote.
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Post by Renata on Apr 11, 2011 8:15:32 GMT -5
I see that; I was just answering your question from my own perspective.
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Post by guiri on Apr 11, 2011 8:17:39 GMT -5
Ah, circular conversation, you were asking a rhetorical question and I thought you were asking me something I'd already suggested!
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Post by Renata on Apr 11, 2011 8:21:47 GMT -5
Here's how the post-FCOD claim period went, and the reasons why I was raising my eyebrows at SP.
FCOD claim 282
283 – SisC says claim is a bit late and points out one problem with it (the “targeting” issue)
288 – Lightfoot also mentions the late claim, and says “why mentalguy”
290-1 FCOD responds, doesn’t really answer LF’s question, only asks people if they can’t figure it out 293 – Suburban. I assume the first “we” is supposed to be a “you”. I have no real problem with this post; the one I was referring to that pinged is actually the next one.
294 – Suburban
This is the one that pinged. It’s just so oddly deferential. Check out posts 283 and 288 for comparison, for responses that feel more townie to me. Now both Lightfoot and SisC are already voting FCOD, so might be presumed to be suspicious of him by default, but so is Suburban Plankton. Yet while their comments and questions fit that presumed suspicion, SP’s really don’t, to me. Post 293 is an echo of what’s already been said, and post 294 has that weird tone.
296-7 – From me, “I don’t buy it”.
298 – another answer from FCOD that answers nothing
301 – I call him out on that.
303 – Suburban. Again a virtual echo, this time of things I’ve said.
304 – BobArrgh votes FCOD, citing lateness, format of claim, and inconsistent spelling in claim 305 – Septimus chimes in on tracker/investigator issue and format 306 – SisC thinks FCOD is full of shit
307 – FCOD says he is an investigator, not a tracker, learns alignment
308 – Suburban – again, this has already been brought up
310 – Mental Guy is not buying it
311 – FCOD says he takes it as if someone leaves the hotel, they’re scum
312 – GnarlyCharlie says the story gets worse as time goes on 313 – Storyteller helpfully points out a particularly bad bit, says vote stays
A few more posts in here along the same lines.
319 – Suburban
Finally a definitive statement from him, after at least one scum (Storyteller) is firmly on the “this is BS” wagon. Compare SP’s posts (lots of questions, but all of them have already been asked by other people when SP chimes in; definitive statement of not buying the claim comes only after a ton of other people have said the same, typically in their first or second comment on the matter at that).
The whole thing reeks of over-caution. That makes little sense for a townie who’s already voting for FCOD. Perhaps if the claim was a more convincing one, but it wasn't -- it was really quite bad. So bad not a single person commenting on it (even the known scum) went more than a few sentences before definitively calling BS, except for Suburban.
And honestly, this makes me start to wonder if SP might not be PFK instead of scum. His clinging like a leech to the “there is no Daphne” theory is a bit more sensible in that light, so is Storyteller’s rather over-generous assessment of the implications of that theory, and so is his weird caution. I’ll have to think about it some more. Regardless, SP does not feel like a townie to me.
Gnarlycharlie raised my eyebrows again on reviewing that part of the day, so he's probably up next.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Apr 11, 2011 8:59:51 GMT -5
Gnarlycharlie raised my eyebrows again on reviewing that part of the day, so he's probably up next. i'm touched. ;D i'd tell you that you're wasting your time but i don't think you'd take my word for it.
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Post by MentalGuy on Apr 11, 2011 9:43:30 GMT -5
1. if daphne can be kidnapped and can be rescued, then the rescuer is fred or velma (or scrappy). of course the shaggy role is unsettling as it doesn't mean the gang are all town. there's a dog catcher and dog trainer. so does that mean scooby also has a 'dognapper' and rescuer? is scooby as important or more important than daphne? This is interesting. I'd expect the Dog Catcher to be the dognapper but I've no idea how the role of Dog Trainer fits in with the Town Searcher. @ Mental, does your PM mention Daphne by name? Do you know if you can find missing dogs too? How likely is it that scum can both kidnap Daphne (and control her vote) AND can dognap Scooby (for whatever purpose)? There are two things I can search for. One of them is Daphne after she has been kidnapped and my PM did mention her name specifically. The other is the non-Daphne part of my PM that I did not reveal, but I cannot find missing dogs. I have no idea if Inner Stickler could search for the same things or if he had different things to search for.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Apr 11, 2011 9:52:12 GMT -5
Here's how the post-FCOD claim period went, and the reasons why I was raising my eyebrows at SP. <major snippage> Finally a definitive statement from him, after at least one scum (Storyteller) is firmly on the “this is BS” wagon. Compare SP’s posts (lots of questions, but all of them have already been asked by other people when SP chimes in; definitive statement of not buying the claim comes only after a ton of other people have said the same, typically in their first or second comment on the matter at that). The whole thing reeks of over-caution. That makes little sense for a townie who’s already voting for FCOD. Perhaps if the claim was a more convincing one, but it wasn't -- it was really quite bad. So bad not a single person commenting on it (even the known scum) went more than a few sentences before definitively calling BS, except for Suburban. And honestly, this makes me start to wonder if SP might not be PFK instead of scum. His clinging like a leech to the “there is no Daphne” theory is a bit more sensible in that light, so is Storyteller’s rather over-generous assessment of the implications of that theory, and so is his weird caution. I’ll have to think about it some more. Regardless, SP does not feel like a townie to me. As you point out, I was already voting for him when he made the claim. I didn't unvote him following, so I (perhaps foolishly) assumed that would imply I didn't believe his claim. I was perfectly happy to continue feeding him rope, and didn't think it was necessary to say "I thought FCOD was Scum before his claim, and I'm still voting for him now...oh, and by the way, I think his claim is BS". I rather figured that last bit was self-evident; perhaps I assumed too much.
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Post by julie on Apr 11, 2011 10:13:47 GMT -5
Vote Count:
*Suburbank Plankton: 1 (Renata 3)
*Current lynch leader
Snack Transfers:
Suburban Plankton: +1 (Special Ed 5)
Idle Thoughts: +1 (Special Ed 5)
gnarlycharlie: +1 (Special Ed 5)
Joanie: +1 (Special Ed 5)
Renata: +1 (Special Ed 5)
Corrections always welcome.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Apr 11, 2011 11:57:58 GMT -5
1. IIRC I implied I was still suspicious of FCOD during Day 2. In any event, my Towniness is now so obvious it seems anti-Town to waste time defending it. You know, I am so tempted to vote you for this line of this post alone that it's making my teeth hurt. Renata has said she can think of a reason your power might be Scummy. You want to stop magic bagging the rest of us? scooby, where are you? or maybe more appropriately, scooby, who are you? i have snacks for you. I'm not sure if this is a joke, Charlie, but you're not making me happy, either. No guarantees Scooby is Town, but you appear to be assuming Scooby needs snacks. Add in the distinct possibility we don't want him outed, and you post this? BTW, in canon Scooby snacks worked as well on Shaggy as they did Scooby. On a tangent: BillMc, AKA Templeton the butler, AKA Town Adviser, was driven away from the gazebo. This is true, so there may well be reasons for players to "leave the Hotel". Of course, Templeton was Town, so that would mean "leaving the Hotel" =/= "Scum".[/quote] Between this, the fact that almost everyone fled the library last Night, and FCOD's claimed "power", is anyone else thinking geography might also be playing a part in this game, in addition to Scooby Snacks. Finally: As you point out, I was already voting for him when he made the claim. I didn't unvote him following, so I (perhaps foolishly) assumed that would imply I didn't believe his claim. I was perfectly happy to continue feeding him rope, and didn't think it was necessary to say "I thought FCOD was Scum before his claim, and I'm still voting for him now...oh, and by the way, I think his claim is BS". I rather figured that last bit was self-evident; perhaps I assumed too much. You appear to be the only person who felt it was unnecessary to comment on his claim. Vote: Suburban Plankton [/color]
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Post by Sister Coyote on Apr 11, 2011 11:59:18 GMT -5
Dammit. Can someone take care of the eeny-weenie eyestrain-o-vision in the Plankton quote?
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Post by julie on Apr 11, 2011 12:02:23 GMT -5
I modified Sister Coyote's post #50 to make it readable by removing "size" tags.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Apr 11, 2011 12:18:21 GMT -5
Thank you, o great and powerful mod.
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Post by BobArrgh on Apr 11, 2011 12:24:04 GMT -5
I'm really curious about the use of Scooby Snacks. I think they may be some sort of item that creates a win condition for a PFK. For example, a PFK's wincon might be something like "You win if you receive at least 1 Scooby Snack from each living person in the game."
Thus, I'm a little reluctant to simply pass out any of my growing collection of Scooby Snacks like a port-side doxy during a port-of-call by an aircraft carrier task force.
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Post by BobArrgh on Apr 11, 2011 12:30:33 GMT -5
@SisCoyote: I think the locations are just color, but I don't have anything with which to back that up. However, I think that Inner Stickler's and Storyteller's final whereabouts being the same room (Library) probably indicates that their "deaths" were related in some fashion.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Apr 11, 2011 12:57:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this is a joke, Charlie, but you're not making me happy, either. No guarantees Scooby is Town, but you appear to be assuming Scooby needs snacks. Add in the distinct possibility we don't want him outed, and you post this? BTW, in canon Scooby snacks worked as well on Shaggy as they did Scooby. it's a joke in part but also an attempt to find out the use of scooby snacks. i realize that it might be better that scooby, if he exists as a role, stay hidden. here are my reasons for wanting to know: 1. information is good for Town in most cases. 2. people are 'leaving' at a fast rate. i would love to find out before the game ends just to satisfy my curiosity (it IS a mystery theme ;D). also while i realize that shaggy also loved scooby snacks and in this game he was scum, it seems unlikely scooby is scum. he was whimpering when shaggy was caught. however in the case that scooby is scum, i'd like to know that. it's a risk but i believe that this game was created with the idea that we would not only try to ferret out scum but also to figure out the mystery.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Apr 11, 2011 13:01:20 GMT -5
You appear to be the only person who felt it was unnecessary to comment on his claim. Vote: Suburban Plankton First, I did comment on his claim, quite a few times. Second, there were quite a few people who didn't comment at all on his claim, and several who "commented" on it but never took a decisive stand. And then there is septimus, who like me made a comment on the claim, but didn't change his vote until well after the lynch was a sure thing. Or Renata, who told us flat out "I don't buy it", but left her vote on septimus. How is it that I am more suspicious to you than either of them?
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Post by Sister Coyote on Apr 11, 2011 13:11:15 GMT -5
Perhaps I should have said you were the only person voting him who didn't seem to feel the need to indicate one way or the other what you thought of his claim.
As to how you are more suspicious than either of them:
I find septimus suspicious, but not as suspicious as I find you. Further information about his damn magic bag will likely shape my feeling about him further.
I find Renata's behavior to be in-character for her, and is the kind of thing I have done in the past as Town. FCOD was going to be lynched.
If we had needed her vote to clinch him, and she had said she didn't buy it, and she'd left her vote where it was, then I would find her very suspicious indeed. As things stand, however, she left her vote on the player she found most suspicious, because her vote was not needed to lynch FCOD.
Also, you're the only player I recall commenting on my notice that Bill was said to have left the hotel to go to the gazebo before he "left the hotel" (as it were), and your response was wishy-washy with regard to whether or not that statement backed up FCOD's claim at best, and I don't much like that, either.
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Post by BobArrgh on Apr 11, 2011 13:31:28 GMT -5
@Mental Guy: Regarding your post about having the Masons claim, you seem to make a distinction between a "single remaining Mason" and "more than one Mason remaining". That is, you think that if only one Mason is alive then he or she should claim, but if more than one are alive, then you want to hear what others have to say about it.
Does it matter?
So far all we know is that Paranoia was a Mason. However, he wasn't all that active on D1, and died without voting for anyone.
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