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Post by septimus on May 9, 2011 11:58:40 GMT -5
If there's been a credible reason posted for why a scummy Honest Moley would invent a posting restriction, I've missed it. Thus suspicion about it makes me suspicious. Do you care to comment, Moley? On another topic, Lie Detection has led to some interesting discussion. Archangel started with "My alignment is also Town." This seems straightforward and Detectable yet led to suspicion from CIAS. This suspicion makes me suspicious; for this and other reasons (some stated yesterDay) I'm going to Vote: CatInaSuitThis is tentative and I may revisit the vote later, but I seem to need to play Chicagoan ("Vote early, vote often!") just to get my votes recorded. Speaking of which Next, I'll probably be accused of helping that Kenyan forge his birth certificate. ;D Captain Pinkies wrote simply "Town." This seemed extremely odd at the time (How hard is it to type "I am" ?) so Ed may be correct to find it suspicious. But, it seems almost too obvious of a blunder. Can I digress about Lie Detection? This may be of no use in scum-hunting but it's a long Day, so we have time for digression.... What if I wrote: Captain Pinkies is Scum.and the Lie Detector submitted this statement for Detection? Would the Moderator respond True/False depending on whether Pinkies is Scum? Or would she say something like "Septimus doesn't know what he's talking about." In the latter case, couldn't Lie Detector get a little extra info? By submitting that sentence (and getting the "Septimus doesn't know" answer) he'd know I was non-Scum. But if he got a "True" response, the Lie Detector would know not only that Pinkies is Scum but also that Septimus is Scum or has an Investigation result. And "False" would show that Pinkies is non-Scum and I am Scum or Investigator. (A Lie Detector, if we even have one, probably wouldn't be so devious, but I'm still curious....)
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Post by special on May 9, 2011 12:12:53 GMT -5
Lie detection usually only works if the person who makes the statement and the moderator are aware of the truth.
For example, I could say:
1. I am Town 2. Septimus is Town 3. Green is my favorite color 4. I am Scum
1. Should return "Truth 2. and 3. Should return "Unknown 4. Should return False.
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Post by septimus on May 9, 2011 12:25:36 GMT -5
For example: 2. Septimus is Town ... Should return "Unknown So I'm right. Lie Detector could submit your (2) and, given a "False" response, deduce that I'm non-Town and that Ed is Scum or Investigator. Scum wouldn't know whether someone is Town or Third Party, but I can try this: Special Ed is not Scum. Lie Detector will, in fact, get "Unknown" from this, but if they think I'm Scum they can submit it to (partially) confirm their suspicion of me and (in the case I am Scum) also learn Ed's alignment.
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Post by metallicsquink on May 9, 2011 12:28:18 GMT -5
Why are we discussing this? It seems awfully confusing and sort of pointless (unless I missed something).
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Post by septimus on May 9, 2011 12:44:59 GMT -5
Confusing, yes; but not completely pointless. A Lie Detector suspicious of septimus might indeed be better off submitting the "Ed is not Scum" statement rather than the "I am Town." If he gets "Unknown" as response he learns that I'm not scum, but if I am Scum he also learns Ed's alignment as a bonus.
(I could argue that my willingness to give Lie Detector that option is pro-Town, and those of you who don't post such a statement are suspicious. ;D )
But I won't pursue this; I was just curious. (Useless digressions may be scummy, but does that really apply on the first day of a long Day?)
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Post by Dirx on May 9, 2011 12:56:04 GMT -5
Confusing, yes; but not completely pointless. A Lie Detector suspicious of septimus might indeed be better off submitting the "Ed is not Scum" statement rather than the "I am Town." If he gets "Unknown" as response he learns that I'm not scum, but if I am Scum he also learns Ed's alignment as a bonus. (I could argue that my willingness to give Lie Detector that option is pro-Town, and those of you who don't post such a statement are suspicious. ;D ) But I won't pursue this; I was just curious. (Useless digressions may be scummy, but does that really apply on the first day of a long Day?) Actually, if you were scum, you would only know that Ed is either scum or not-scum. A result of "True" could still mean that Ed could be a 3rd party or PFK. It helps to know he's not scum, but a PFK can still be just as or even more dangerous, depending on the situation. Not only that, but if I were to look at tactics like that from a moderator's point of view, I'd be iffy about allowing them. What if players said "Ok, everyone list 5 players' names and state that none of them are scum." Depending on the names picked, the size of the game, and the Lie Detector's luck in picking targets, this could quickly get out of hand.
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Post by metallicsquink on May 9, 2011 13:04:57 GMT -5
Confusing, yes; but not completely pointless. A Lie Detector suspicious of septimus might indeed be better off submitting the "Ed is not Scum" statement rather than the "I am Town." If he gets "Unknown" as response he learns that I'm not scum, but if I am Scum he also learns Ed's alignment as a bonus. (I could argue that my willingness to give Lie Detector that option is pro-Town, and those of you who don't post such a statement are suspicious. ;D ) But I won't pursue this; I was just curious. (Useless digressions may be scummy, but does that really apply on the first day of a long Day?) I see what you are saying now. I was a little confused as to how and what would be verified in your different scenarios.
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Post by special on May 9, 2011 13:20:51 GMT -5
Confusing, yes; but not completely pointless. A Lie Detector suspicious of septimus might indeed be better off submitting the "Ed is not Scum" statement rather than the "I am Town." If he gets "Unknown" as response he learns that I'm not scum, but if I am Scum he also learns Ed's alignment as a bonus. (I could argue that my willingness to give Lie Detector that option is pro-Town, and those of you who don't post such a statement are suspicious. ;D ) But I won't pursue this; I was just curious. (Useless digressions may be scummy, but does that really apply on the first day of a long Day?) And the presence of a 'hidden' or unknown Scum might also impact this situation
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Post by JustBeingGinger on May 9, 2011 14:57:30 GMT -5
SNIPPED 4. In fact my questioning about the third party was due to the fact that I keep FORGETTING the possibility that there's a third party. (In spite of the fact that, as you noted, there are third party type roles listed in the possible roles.) When I initially read the way SisC posted the alignments in the rules, it made me believe that there were only town or scum in the game. I don't expect you to believe this, but it's the truth. My question to you @ Archangel - What in the rules made you come to the conclusion that there were only SCUM and TOWN and not a 3rd party? The thing that strikes me odd as well is that you are a MOD of games and yet you keep forgetting that there might be a 3rd party knowing that Serial Killer, Survivor, Roleblocker, etc. are or could be in play.
This is just very odd to me.
I am okay with voting for a non-participant such as Cap Pinkies considering that he basically just posted at the last minute on Day 1 to avoid the NON Participating penalty.
Would like to hear more from Paranoia as well.
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Post by Archangel on May 9, 2011 15:49:41 GMT -5
SNIPPED 4. In fact my questioning about the third party was due to the fact that I keep FORGETTING the possibility that there's a third party. (In spite of the fact that, as you noted, there are third party type roles listed in the possible roles.) When I initially read the way SisC posted the alignments in the rules, it made me believe that there were only town or scum in the game. I don't expect you to believe this, but it's the truth. My question to you @ Archangel - What in the rules made you come to the conclusion that there were only SCUM and TOWN and not a 3rd party? The thing that strikes me odd as well is that you are a MOD of games and yet you keep forgetting that there might be a 3rd party knowing that Serial Killer, Survivor, Roleblocker, etc. are or could be in play.
This is just very odd to me.
I am okay with voting for a non-participant such as Cap Pinkies considering that he basically just posted at the last minute on Day 1 to avoid the NON Participating penalty.
Would like to hear more from Paranoia as well.
Hi Ginger, SisC posted IF $Alignment=Town and IF $Alignment= Scum with the wincons. She didn't post one for third party. I can understand why you think it's odd that I wouldn't pay attention to this (since I'm a mod). In all my games I have never once played third party, except one game where every player had their own wincon. I have a mental block on third parties. This isn't going to convince anyone, I know. You should all vote me if you think I'm scum. But I'm not, I'm town, so vote me and then please continue to look for scum, otherwise this day will be totally wasted.
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Merestil Haye
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[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
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Post by Merestil Haye on May 9, 2011 16:21:47 GMT -5
Archangel (2,2)*: CatInaSuit [26], metallicsquink [37] Captain Pinkies (2,2): Special Ed [4], Suburban Plankton [47] fluiddruid (1,1): Archangel [30] With these votes, Archangel will be lynched. Is that a correct statement of the tiebreaker?
From the Rules thread :
Captain Pinkies got the first vote of the Day. Shouldn't he be the one in the hotseat right now?[/b[
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Post by Sister Coyote on May 9, 2011 16:30:58 GMT -5
Strange, I was just coming in to post a revised vote count:
Archangel (2,2)*: CatInaSuit [26], metallicsquink [37] fluiddruid (2,1): Archangel [30] Captain Pinkies (1,1): Special Ed [4], Suburban Plankton [47] CatInaSuit (1,1): Septimus [60]
With these votes, Archangel will be lynched.
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Post by fluiddruid on May 9, 2011 16:57:05 GMT -5
Okay folks, confession time. Also a role claim.
I have been a bit flummoxed as to what to do with my role. I am third-party, so I realize that the conventional wisdom will be to lynch me. However, I hope that you will hear me out for a few reasons, not least of which is that I'm under no particular pressure to claim right now, and because I would like to offer my alliance to the Town team.
First, the PM:
As you can see, my only chance of success is to predict lynch winners. However, what I realize is that as soon as I start placing my extra votes, everyone is going to be very suspicious of what is going on and switch their votes around, avoiding any possible candidate I might choose. Hence, my decision to claim.
For full disclosure, I was unexpectedly busy this weekend and did not cast my extra vote. Since I'm not modkilled for missing my mandatory vote window, I'll assume that means that I'll get to use my power tomorrow (I hope?) So, I'm making Townies this offer. In exchange for my life, I'll do the following:
- I'll cast my extra vote for the second place lynch candidate each Day. This seems to make the most sense as a strategy that will benefit Town (making it easier to lynch someone that a significant number of players are convinced are Scum), as well as make it possible to pursue my win condition. I could also do this based on the number of confirmed Town, but sadly this will probably be pretty controversial and, right now, isn't practical. (This is negotiable, if a different voting pattern is more welcome, I will be happy to consider this, though I must reasonably expect manipulation from the scum team as well, so I do plan to make a strategy now and stick with it.)
- Also, presuming it's not unwelcome. I'll offer you my honest opinion about vote candidates from my neutral position.
- I'll attempt to act pro-Town in all ways I can fathom from here until the end of the game.
For the lie detector: I attest that the PM I've posted above is 100% accurate with no omissions, and that I have not lied in the game thread about anything except claiming Town during the mass claim.
Thoughts?
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Post by special on May 9, 2011 17:11:18 GMT -5
huh.
So if you were correct on Night 1,2 or 3, your goal would have been to get yourself lynched or killed, eh?
Doesn't that make you more of a mad bomber/politician/Jester?
Though, in all the role does seem like something Sister might create.
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Post by guiri on May 9, 2011 17:35:58 GMT -5
I can understand sending a PM to the moderator but making your vote in the Night thread? That would certainly draw attention to you. I presume you're immune to the fluff-only rule? Does your extra vote count towards the lynch total? Is it shown in the vote counts assigned to you?
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Post by LightFoot on May 9, 2011 19:52:35 GMT -5
It sure got quiet in here
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Post by JustBeingGinger on May 9, 2011 20:02:42 GMT -5
and what I find odd is that Fluid has not been back to answer questions. Typically after a claim like that you would stay on for the many questions that follow. Although there are only two...
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Post by special on May 9, 2011 20:05:06 GMT -5
and what I find odd is that Fluid has not been back to answer questions. Typically after a claim like that you would stay on for the many questions that follow. Although there are only two... It's not odd. Some people just aren't at the computer all the time. What are your question for fluid?
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Post by LightFoot on May 9, 2011 20:17:17 GMT -5
Beginning with Night One, each Night, you must place your first vote on the player of your choice. You may either post this vote in the Night thread (in Bold and Blue), or you may send a PM to the moderator. This vote may not be changed. I can understand sending a PM to the moderator but making your vote in the Night thread? That would certainly draw attention to you. I presume you're immune to the fluff-only rule? Does your extra vote count towards the lynch total? Is it shown in the vote counts assigned to you? from the rules If fluiddruid HAD voted in the Night thread then she would have had to claim for any cred. And I guess that vote would count towards the next Day's vote . So HOW is the First vote (the additional one- sounds backwards I know) going to be manipulated for TOWN? Curious, with only one vote currently on fluiddruid why claim now? If you are truly co-operating with TOWN wouldn't you end up winning the game (not TOWN?) Isn't fluiddruid asking TOWN to let/help her win?
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Post by special on May 9, 2011 20:36:54 GMT -5
If you are truly co-operating with TOWN wouldn't you end up winning the game (not TOWN?) Isn't fluiddruid asking TOWN to let/help her win? Good question, I suppose it boils down to third party vs PFK. Sister, if you used them in the game, would Third Party roles be non-exclusive and PFK roles be win-stealing?
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Post by fluiddruid on May 9, 2011 20:40:08 GMT -5
I can understand sending a PM to the moderator but making your vote in the Night thread? That would certainly draw attention to you. I presume you're immune to the fluff-only rule? Does your extra vote count towards the lynch total? Is it shown in the vote counts assigned to you? I don't really know any more than you do. I presumed that it would show up in the vote count (at least if the person managed to garner another vote) though I doubt it would have been assigned to me.
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Post by fluiddruid on May 9, 2011 20:40:43 GMT -5
and what I find odd is that Fluid has not been back to answer questions. Typically after a claim like that you would stay on for the many questions that follow. Although there are only two... I posted at work and hit 5pm CST. Quitting time.
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Post by fluiddruid on May 9, 2011 20:48:19 GMT -5
from the rules If fluiddruid HAD voted in the Night thread then she would have had to claim for any cred. And I guess that vote would count towards the next Day's vote . So HOW is the First vote (the additional one- sounds backwards I know) going to be manipulated for TOWN? Curious, with only one vote currently on fluiddruid why claim now? I think you just answered your own question. As I previously stated, I didn't think it possible to win under my conditions if extra votes started popping up on certain candidates. Explaining it somehow to try to manipulate town didn't seem to be a likely success strategy. So rather than being a game-spoiler type, I decided to see if going cooperative would work. It's going to be a hell of a lot easier for me if I'm going with the flow rather than against it. The big risk is the initial claim, hence why I wanted to do it when I wasn't under duress. I don't see any reason why my win would be exclusive. There's nothing that indicates this in the PM and frankly it would be bastard modding at its worst. "Surprise! Some role you didn't know about won the game by predicting a lynch then dying! Game over!" I think it's clear that this is a side game, or a minigame if you will. My only objective is to achieve the goal stated at my PM. There's no reason that it has to be to Town's detriment so I choose to play it openly and give Town the opportunity to consider my proposal, which I consider pretty much win/win (as long as you believe I'm being truthful). I realize that claiming's a risk but I knew if I was going to claim then I'd need to claim early. Fortune favors the bold, anyway.
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Post by fluiddruid on May 9, 2011 20:53:10 GMT -5
huh. So if you were correct on Night 1,2 or 3, your goal would have been to get yourself lynched or killed, eh? Right, hence the Mad Bomber part, I guess. But the actual logistics of achieving this seemed unlikely. After all there are an awful lot of people in this game and predicting a vote so early (which is essentially what I'd have to do) seems very difficult. That's why I decided to try to go for the long game, and why I thought therefore that it made sense to claim.
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Post by special on May 9, 2011 21:21:55 GMT -5
from the rules If fluiddruid HAD voted in the Night thread then she would have had to claim for any cred. And I guess that vote would count towards the next Day's vote . So HOW is the First vote (the additional one- sounds backwards I know) going to be manipulated for TOWN? Curious, with only one vote currently on fluiddruid why claim now? I think you just answered your own question. As I previously stated, I didn't think it possible to win under my conditions if extra votes started popping up on certain candidates. Explaining it somehow to try to manipulate town didn't seem to be a likely success strategy. So rather than being a game-spoiler type, I decided to see if going cooperative would work. It's going to be a hell of a lot easier for me if I'm going with the flow rather than against it. The big risk is the initial claim, hence why I wanted to do it when I wasn't under duress. I don't see any reason why my win would be exclusive. There's nothing that indicates this in the PM and frankly it would be bastard modding at its worst. "Surprise! Some role you didn't know about won the game by predicting a lynch then dying! Game over!" I think it's clear that this is a side game, or a minigame if you will. My only objective is to achieve the goal stated at my PM. There's no reason that it has to be to Town's detriment so I choose to play it openly and give Town the opportunity to consider my proposal, which I consider pretty much win/win (as long as you believe I'm being truthful). I realize that claiming's a risk but I knew if I was going to claim then I'd need to claim early. Fortune favors the bold, anyway. However, there's a caveat. If you live into day 4, then you'd have to guess correctly twice. So, you have every incentive to die. Or, guessing correctly twice, die then. And, if you truly are non win-stealing, Town has every incentive to keep you a live to deny Scum numerical superiority. So, at some point your win condition will come into conflict with Town, won't it? Unless you guess so poorly that you cannot win.
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Post by LightFoot on May 9, 2011 21:29:27 GMT -5
It sounds win stealing to me.. I am open to enlightenment
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Post by Sister Coyote on May 9, 2011 21:50:55 GMT -5
Sister, if you used them in the game, would Third Party roles be non-exclusive and PFK roles be win-stealing? That is the standard terminology for any game I moderate.
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Post by LightFoot on May 9, 2011 21:52:31 GMT -5
The 'extra' vote is made at Night so it effects the Next Day (correct?) That said, unless TOWN gets to tell fluiddruid who to vote for (sketchy at best there) I don't get it. I have seen the "3rd party" take the win even when all SCUM were killed because the '3rd party' was still alive.
I'm not reading a solid wincon in the claim
"you win with the winning team" sounds like the last game the 3rd party won
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Post by septimus on May 9, 2011 23:31:34 GMT -5
My feeling is that we should agree to fluiddruid's offer of cooperation. ... I'll cast my extra vote for the second place lynch candidate each Day. If the Lynchee is Scum, isn't there a better-than-usual chance that the 2nd-place candidate is not Scum? Perhaps that should be an exception. There may be some other obvious exceptions. Perhaps you should exercise judgment in those cases for your Night vote but, once we have some confirmed Townies, follow confirmed Townie instructions for your Day vote. My scum-hunting skills are weak, and I've made weak votes for people's weak suspicions. But perhaps there really is a "slam dunk" toDay: With no post from Pinkies, and no explanation for his reluctance to type a straightforward "I am" ... Unvote: CatInaSuitVote: Captain Pinkies
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Post by Dirx on May 9, 2011 23:40:41 GMT -5
Fluid, on Day1, you asked some questions about the Politician role: The only role here that messes with votes is the Politician (possibly the JoaT, too). Granted, she did say any sort of role variants are possible, but still. At the very least we can be reasonably certain we have some version of a politician, and with the "undoubtedly" qualifier above, we can guess that we might also have additional vote-shenaniganers. I'd say no more than 2 or 3 total roles, tops, unless messing with votes is somehow an integral part of the game. I've never played with a Politician (or any other vote-meddler). How does it work? Does the day just start off with a vote, or is it "behind the scenes" and just take effect at lynchtime, or is it just a double-counting vote? If your claim is correct, then obviously you knew about your role already. If you had these questions, why not ask them of the mod instead of us?
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