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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 12, 2011 18:19:15 GMT -5
Sorry. Being scum is stressful on me. Every time I get a scum role, Tums stock goes up. Losing two scum in one day and having basically your entire plan for the game blow up in your face is rather frustrating and I am not made of sterner stuff. My planned fake claim was gonna get messy and I completely expected moley to get lynched today and me lynched the next day.
Lightfoot, I don't know why we never really thought about you. This game has been a huge example of why blinders are bad. (Although I'm a little peeved at the number of players who apparently keep all their content in their heads and don't bother to share their logic with the rest of us.)
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Post by special on Nov 12, 2011 18:23:33 GMT -5
Sorry. Being scum is stressful on me. Every time I get a scum role, Tums stock goes up. Losing two scum in one day and having basically your entire plan for the game blow up in your face is rather frustrating and I am not made of sterner stuff. My planned fake claim was gonna get messy and I completely expected moley to get lynched today and me lynched the next day. Lightfoot, I don't know why we never really thought about you. This game has been a huge example of why blinders are bad. (Although I'm a little peeved at the number of players who apparently keep all their content in their heads and don't bother to share their logic with the rest of us.) I share most things. There are a few things I don't share. Usually when I think I've found a scum tell in someone's playstyle. Not that it makes me any better of a player.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 12, 2011 18:37:22 GMT -5
Maybe. But I saw a lot of posts this game that would quote someone and then have only a line or two and usually the line was a generic "so scummy" comment. I can understand not wanting to tip ones hand midgame but at some point it would be nice if the geniuses would share some of their insights for the benefit of us regular folk.
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Post by Deni on Nov 12, 2011 18:49:42 GMT -5
(Although I'm a little peeved at the number of players who apparently keep all their content in their heads and don't bother to share their logic with the rest of us.) Yeah - sorry. I definitely need to work on this area. I try to say what I am thinking and it comes out all wonky and it seems that everyone else says what I wanted to say so much better. I just need to type up what I think and if it doesn't make sense I am slowly realizing that I will get questioned but not crushed. I don't know how to articulate what I process and analyze very well. For example I was sure peeker was scum but I didn't know how to make a case against him so others could see that. I thought Ed and Pollux were town but when Paul questioned me I realized I couldn't articulate my thoughts very well.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 12, 2011 19:07:47 GMT -5
You probably aren't very familiar with him but NAF1138 has always struck me as someone who could find the subtle clues of scumminess and build cases around them.
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Post by sinjin on Nov 12, 2011 19:19:18 GMT -5
Maybe. But I saw a lot of posts this game that would quote someone and then have only a line or two and usually the line was a generic "so scummy" comment. I can understand not wanting to tip ones hand midgame but at some point it would be nice if the geniuses would share some of their insights for the benefit of us regular folk. Uh, you were scum, correct? So you wanted town to help you understand your scumitude? Am I misreading this?
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Post by BillMc on Nov 12, 2011 19:28:11 GMT -5
Makes sense I guess, but the problem was, it wasn't hard to work out that you were lying about your wincon, even before I saw it. I thought that you'd want either one side or the other to WIN the game, not just to get to LYLO; and you'd made your preference clear. The moment I saw your wincon, I thought you'd poison a townie to take it to 3-2. Didn't expect to end up dead today! i didn't actually lie about my win con -- i just expressed it differently. the earliest it could have been lylo was day 6 - so i had to be alive then.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 12, 2011 21:07:14 GMT -5
Uh, you were scum, correct? So you wanted town to help you understand your scumitude? Am I misreading this? You are. I am capable of more than one mental point of view at any given time and am able to put aside my personal goals in a game for analytical purposes. I saw posters in this game limit themselves to comments on the order of Bah and the like regarding other players. Had they taken more time to explain why other players deserved those comments, town probably wouldn't have had quite so many mislynches at the start. But if all a player does is quote another player and then say, "I am quite certain you are scum." unless that quote is particularly obvious, other townplayers don't know what they're looking at.
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Post by special on Nov 12, 2011 21:12:16 GMT -5
Uh, you were scum, correct? So you wanted town to help you understand your scumitude? Am I misreading this? You are. I am capable of more than one mental point of view at any given time and am able to put aside my personal goals in a game for analytical purposes. I saw posters in this game limit themselves to comments on the order of Bah and the like regarding other players. Had they taken more time to explain why other players deserved those comments, town probably wouldn't have had quite so many mislynches at the start. But if all a player does is quote another player and then say, "I am quite certain you are scum." unless that quote is particularly obvious, other townplayers don't know what they're looking at. But see, when you say "Bah!" You put the person on notice that they've said something that isn't quite right (in your opinion) without giviung them the specifics to defend themselves. I think it does a couple of things. It applies pressure to the person to expand on their thinking or re-think it, and it causes other people to look at it without your own point of view coloring their opinion. I find it quite useful.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 12, 2011 21:27:51 GMT -5
Maybe. But at some point, it would be helpful for the bah-ers to revisit the issue. Because I know for me, when I'm town and someone just says this is scummy or I don't like this and lets it drop, I don't really put much more weight on it other than whatever conclusion I've ever drawn. When townies don't share their logic, other townies have no basis for analysis.
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Post by special on Nov 12, 2011 22:12:44 GMT -5
Maybe. But at some point, it would be helpful for the bah-ers to revisit the issue. Because I know for me, when I'm town and someone just says this is scummy or I don't like this and lets it drop, I don't really put much more weight on it other than whatever conclusion I've ever drawn. When townies don't share their logic, other townies have no basis for analysis. Yeah, but I am completely awful at convincing anyone of anything. So, just a Bah will do.
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Post by BillMc on Nov 12, 2011 23:51:02 GMT -5
Yeah, but I am completely awful at convincing anyone of anything. So, just a Bah will do. Bah!
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 12, 2011 23:52:31 GMT -5
Let it never be said that we avoided the low-hanging fruit.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Nov 13, 2011 12:42:46 GMT -5
I thought you were our greatest threat on Day Two, with the possible exception of Bill (who is a threat on general principle). Looking back at your posts, I'm still of that opinion. You didn't have it but you were closer to "getting it" than anybody else was at the time. I actually wanted to night-kill you. I posted this in the scum thread for Day Two, and then Peeker and Texcat immediately posted REALLY badly-justified votes on you (which, of course, you immediately picked up on). Add that to Inner's voting Scathach - about ten posts after I'd said that I'd accuse anybody who voted the "newbie" on dubious grounds of being scum - and I was seriously ready to just go "fuck it" and bus my entire scum team at that point. It was NOT fun. Sorry fellow scummers, but my impression was you guys had got lucky in not being suspected and were thinking it meant you were the BEST SCUM TEAM EVER, when in fact all you were doing was creating all kinds of problems for yourself later on in the game. Of course, the unfortunate side-note to all of this early frustration was that when I got it really, really wrong, I wasn't listening to these guys any more, even when they were actually giving very good advice. I think there's a moral there, but I can't think what it is. Teamwork's involved anyway.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Nov 13, 2011 12:44:38 GMT -5
Sorry. Being scum is stressful on me. Every time I get a scum role, Tums stock goes up. Losing two scum in one day and having basically your entire plan for the game blow up in your face is rather frustrating and I am not made of sterner stuff. My planned fake claim was gonna get messy and I completely expected moley to get lynched today and me lynched the next day. Lightfoot, I don't know why we never really thought about you. This game has been a huge example of why blinders are bad. (Although I'm a little peeved at the number of players who apparently keep all their content in their heads and don't bother to share their logic with the rest of us.) I'm guessing this isn't aimed at me... seeing as I could never shut up! ;D
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Post by Holy Moley! on Nov 13, 2011 12:46:32 GMT -5
And I agree about scum roles being more stressful, definitely. I really, really don't like being scum, yet every time I don't specifically ask a host to NOT be scum, I seem to be picked as a scummy role. It's very frustrating. I'd like to be third-party for once, as I never have been yet, but the random number picker just doesn't ever seem to go my way.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Nov 13, 2011 13:00:50 GMT -5
You probably aren't very familiar with him but NAF1138 has always struck me as someone who could find the subtle clues of scumminess and build cases around them. Ah, my first game ever here was when NAF was the Penguin in "Arkham Knights" and I was one of his masons. After nearly being lynched in the first round, I ended up surviving to and winning that one at final four. I still remember Storyteller, NAF, Rysto and Hoopy Frood as one of the best examples of townies working together in a game, even when they weren't sure that all of them WERE town. I definitely miss those guys a lot on this board.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Nov 13, 2011 13:08:11 GMT -5
Maybe. But at some point, it would be helpful for the bah-ers to revisit the issue. Because I know for me, when I'm town and someone just says this is scummy or I don't like this and lets it drop, I don't really put much more weight on it other than whatever conclusion I've ever drawn. When townies don't share their logic, other townies have no basis for analysis. Yeah, but I am completely awful at convincing anyone of anything. So, just a Bah will do. Or indeed a "Hmmmm".
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 13, 2011 13:25:32 GMT -5
And I agree about scum roles being more stressful, definitely. I really, really don't like being scum, yet every time I don't specifically ask a host to NOT be scum, I seem to be picked as a scummy role. It's very frustrating. I'd like to be third-party for once, as I never have been yet, but the random number picker just doesn't ever seem to go my way. When I play as scum, as I mentioned when I posted my role claim, I'm meticulous about everything. My blood pressure goes through the roof because I spend a half-hour on every post going over crap over and over again. That's probably the key difference between when I'm town and scum. When I'm town, I just post whatever and don't reread it, so I end up screwing things up more often. That's also why I get so upset about people seizing on slips because I know I'm more likely to make a slip when I'm town than scum, just because of how much pressure there is to not make a slip as scum.
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Post by sinjin on Nov 13, 2011 14:36:00 GMT -5
And I agree about scum roles being more stressful, definitely. I really, really don't like being scum, yet every time I don't specifically ask a host to NOT be scum, I seem to be picked as a scummy role. It's very frustrating. I'd like to be third-party for once, as I never have been yet, but the random number picker just doesn't ever seem to go my way. When I play as scum, as I mentioned when I posted my role claim, I'm meticulous about everything. My blood pressure goes through the roof because I spend a half-hour on every post going over crap over and over again. That's probably the key difference between when I'm town and scum. When I'm town, I just post whatever and don't reread it, so I end up screwing things up more often. That's also why I get so upset about people seizing on slips because I know I'm more likely to make a slip when I'm town than scum, just because of how much pressure there is to not make a slip as scum. Heh, this is how I am too. On the other hand I was on the infamous scum team where Dotchan, the "godfather", asked, in the game thread, if anyone knew how her scum kills worked.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Nov 13, 2011 15:24:53 GMT -5
And I agree about scum roles being more stressful, definitely. I really, really don't like being scum, yet every time I don't specifically ask a host to NOT be scum, I seem to be picked as a scummy role. It's very frustrating. I'd like to be third-party for once, as I never have been yet, but the random number picker just doesn't ever seem to go my way. When I play as scum, as I mentioned when I posted my role claim, I'm meticulous about everything. My blood pressure goes through the roof because I spend a half-hour on every post going over crap over and over again. That's probably the key difference between when I'm town and scum. When I'm town, I just post whatever and don't reread it, so I end up screwing things up more often. That's also why I get so upset about people seizing on slips because I know I'm more likely to make a slip when I'm town than scum, just because of how much pressure there is to not make a slip as scum. Well in all fairness you ARE the most suspicious man in the Universe. ;D But yeah, I completely agree with this. The post early on Day Three where I slipped badly - I said I was right about a couple of townies, when there was no way I could possibly know that - ironically I was trying to communicate to you, as subtly as I could, that we knew you were the traitor. (The traitor could be brought into the scum fold by a night-kill, if we were prepared to waste it on him.) I read and re-read the final paragraph of that post about a hundred times, and forgot to check the start of it. I was KICKING myself. Think I passed it off as an editing mistake then, but it must've given a few people pause for thought.
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Post by sinjin on Nov 13, 2011 18:29:49 GMT -5
I thought you were our greatest threat on Day Two, with the possible exception of Bill (who is a threat on general principle). Looking back at your posts, I'm still of that opinion. You didn't have it but you were closer to "getting it" than anybody else was at the time. I actually wanted to night-kill you. I posted this in the scum thread for Day Two, and then Peeker and Texcat immediately posted REALLY badly-justified votes on you (which, of course, you immediately picked up on). Add that to Inner's voting Scathach - about ten posts after I'd said that I'd accuse anybody who voted the "newbie" on dubious grounds of being scum - and I was seriously ready to just go "fuck it" and bus my entire scum team at that point. It was NOT fun. Sorry fellow scummers, but my impression was you guys had got lucky in not being suspected and were thinking it meant you were the BEST SCUM TEAM EVER, when in fact all you were doing was creating all kinds of problems for yourself later on in the game. Of course, the unfortunate side-note to all of this early frustration was that when I got it really, really wrong, I wasn't listening to these guys any more, even when they were actually giving very good advice. I think there's a moral there, but I can't think what it is. Teamwork's involved anyway. Hahahaha you wanted me dead and bill wanted me dead and town wanted me dead....doomed. I really have to work on my presentation skills. On the gripping hand can we have access to the scummy scum scum scum thread dear mod whom we all love.........That would be you Paranoia. See......... I'm working on my people skills.
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Post by texcat on Nov 13, 2011 18:52:36 GMT -5
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Post by Drain Bead on Nov 14, 2011 11:27:55 GMT -5
My Night target, had I lived to have one, would have been Bill. Funny.
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Post by Drain Bead on Nov 14, 2011 11:28:13 GMT -5
Oh, and my investigations were of Deni and Ed.
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Post by Paranoia on Nov 14, 2011 13:36:50 GMT -5
Oh yeah one last thing for the road - how was the setup? Was there anything you would change? Any complaint as to how I handled things? Let me know so i can change this in the future. (and avoid number derpery; I swear if this game taught me anything it's that I can't count.)
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 14, 2011 14:34:08 GMT -5
Ah, my first game ever here was when NAF was the Penguin in "Arkham Knights" and I was one of his masons. After nearly being lynched in the first round, I ended up surviving to and winning that one at final four. I still remember Storyteller, NAF, Rysto and Hoopy Frood as one of the best examples of townies working together in a game, even when they weren't sure that all of them WERE town. I definitely miss those guys a lot on this board. Yeah, someday I might actually have time to play again. I have a problem that I never do anything half-assed. Which means I can't play mafia without copious free time, or I'll just frustrate myself either by phoning it in for mafia, or phoning it in in someplace else in my life. And you're right that Arkham is probably the best example of town truly working together of any game I've seen played between The Dope and here. (Not familiar with the games on other boards.) Especially when fully loyal town comprised less than half of the players in an all-power game (11 out of 24--and three of them had role-blocking powers--Pollux, Brewha, and I). And while NAF was a huge help to town, up until he died he was still playing for his solo-win condition, though, Darth as last scum helped town out by killing him, which was fine because his power of information gathering had exceeded its usefulness. (Literally. The mods actually ran out of things to tell him because they never figured he'd actually live that long as a kind-of-mason-but-with-a-secret-extra-win-condition.) Fortunately for town, NAF's solo win condition required him to help town to achieve, and since he one with a standard mason condition as well, there was no reason for him to ever work against town directly. He just tried to manipulate pro-town events working as pro-NAF events as well. He played it brilliantly. But the end game was fun. We would have won even earlier had storyteller gotten his night action in by the deadline since he would have protected me from dying. That game is still probably my favorite memory from playing mafia, even with it being my first memory. Because town managed through a lot of skill and some luck thrown in to win a game that by setup alone was lost to us by Night 0. And scum/3rd parties played solid games as well. (Special commendation to hawkeyops false claim out of whole cloth of Killer Moth. As the not-found-yet scum detective James Gordon, he didn't have a fake character claim provided for him. He managed to pick a bad-guy role that wasn't in the game at all.)
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Post by peekercpa on Nov 14, 2011 23:07:19 GMT -5
i think i should actually take all the losses for the scum team.
i totally screwed the pooch on this one gang. going awol is never good for either side and i fucked my buds because of rl. probably should have asked to sub out but i kept thinking the next day would be only 14 hours instead of 18. bad peek bad. i have only skimmed a touch but moley played damn great. our playstyles conflict a ton. but he is a partner i would want in a rematch that i could be fully participatory in.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Nov 15, 2011 16:03:00 GMT -5
i think i should actually take all the losses for the scum team. i totally screwed the pooch on this one gang. going awol is never good for either side and i fucked my buds because of rl. probably should have asked to sub out but i kept thinking the next day would be only 14 hours instead of 18. bad peek bad. i have only skimmed a touch but moley played damn great. our playstyles conflict a ton. but he is a partner i would want in a rematch that i could be fully participatory in. Thanks. But I think three times out is enough for both of us! I should 100% have listened to you guys at the start of day five (especially with the "funeral comment" - that one will make me cringe for a LONG time). Me not doing that cost us the game. So unfortunately this loss is on me...
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Post by LightFoot on Nov 15, 2011 16:16:56 GMT -5
I thought Bill was Scum and since Scum had ignored ( not seen) my clues, making Bill my target would surely have you target me that night. Bill's wincon changed things and he poisoned me instead.
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