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Post by guiri on Nov 20, 2011 7:10:00 GMT -5
I agree with IS *sigh* It's not a matter of discouraging speculation. Inner seems to be discouraging speculation: So until we have at least a lynch under our belt, our power roles are best served by not making much if any speculation and those who are not power roles should not speculate too much either so as to provide cover for the power roles. I agree with warning power roles about the risk of revealing information possibly known only to them but not with discouraging speculation "just in case" or because it may turn out to be pointless. The color indicates that: - we are all linked to another, unknown, player - when a collar detonates, the linked collar detonates too - there are gadgets - there are two teams I don't see anyone coming to definitive conclusions about any of this or using this information to decide on a strategy to follow so for now we agree it's idle speculation that may become clear or useful later in the game. If the discussion has given us anything, it's that there are probably roles which can interfere with the collars and roles which can identify which players are linked - which is the same as saying there's probably some sort of protective role and some sort of investigative role - nothing out of the ordinary.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 20, 2011 10:36:14 GMT -5
No, I pretty much down with what Ed said earlier, if you feel sure that you can speculate without tipping your hand, great, have fun. If you don't think you can or you don't understand what sort of things would be considered tipping your hand, if you're town, please don't risk it. I rarely do because I'm not an adventurous player.
Deon, CIAS has said that BIll's not going to be active for like 2 weeks.
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Post by Caerie on Nov 20, 2011 12:35:32 GMT -5
Of course, then we run the risk of our power roles staying quiet so they don't draw attention to themselves and thus being pinged as "scummy" for not engaging enough.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 20, 2011 12:57:46 GMT -5
Life's a balancing act.
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Post by special on Nov 20, 2011 12:58:43 GMT -5
Of course, then we run the risk of our power roles staying quiet so they don't draw attention to themselves and thus being pinged as "scummy" for not engaging enough. Why would a power role stay quiet if everyone were very careful about not leaking PIS during discussions about things about which we will shortly have more information.
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Post by Caerie on Nov 20, 2011 13:26:52 GMT -5
Of course, then we run the risk of our power roles staying quiet so they don't draw attention to themselves and thus being pinged as "scummy" for not engaging enough. Why would a power role stay quiet if everyone were very careful about not leaking PIS during discussions about things about which we will shortly have more information. There is nothing to do in the game right now but speculate. If you avoid any speculation to avoid outing yourself, what exactly are you supposed to do instead?
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 20, 2011 13:59:09 GMT -5
We talk about less speculative topics that are still going to be part of the game. For example, how do you feel about slips? Near as I can tell, a few camps regarding them. The Bead Hypothesis states that any given slip is more likely to be noticed by scum than by town and therefore the pointer-out of a slip should accrue more suspicion than the slipmaker. We saw this in play last game when Colby accidentally referred to Ed as Bill and eventually got lynched for it and took Scathach out first. Both players were town as well as Ed. But Storyteller has a similar story where he as scum posted an analysis of a gamestate implicitly assuming three scum because he knew that number to be true but a town player would not have known, was called out for it, lynched and much rejoicing was had. In Gadarene's Mystery mafia game, sangaman was lynched for stating the presence of 9 scum, a number which had been bandied about but he relayed it with certitude and turned out to be scum. And there are many more examples of this kind. So, Caerie and anyone else, what do you think the proper course of action is when someone makes a 'slip'?
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Post by guiri on Nov 20, 2011 14:05:12 GMT -5
@ Special Ed, do you think we're going to learn that much after one cycle? We may see that the lynch triggers 0, 1 or 2 deaths: is it by design, a Day power, a role trait, or something else? And if we wake up to 0, 1, 2, or more deaths, won't we still be speculating about the existence of, or lack of, docs, SKs, PFKs, 3rd parties, roleblockers, redirectors, etc?
@ Inner, I've started the lynch bandwagon against several Townies (as scum, pfk and Town) so I've learned to look at a player's actions as a whole rather than base a case on a single slip.
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Post by moodymitchy on Nov 20, 2011 14:10:27 GMT -5
Well regarding slips.... Day 1 (if we take the last game here as a benchmark) then I don't think we should hold to much against someone who makes a slip....
For those of you that weren't there... Colby11 I believe made a comment using another players name that appeared to be referring to a conversation they had had... Colby11 was TOWN
So yeah it's a balancing act but I'd sooner balance by saying stuff and having discussion / speculation rather than people being quite for fear of "appearing" to make some sort of slip.
Sorry I skimmed (whoo SCUM tell) Inner Sticklers post so am sort of repeating the Colby11 thing.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 20, 2011 14:26:54 GMT -5
We talk about less speculative topics that are still going to be part of the game. For example, how do you feel about slips? Near as I can tell, a few camps regarding them. The Bead Hypothesis states that any given slip is more likely to be noticed by scum than by town and therefore the pointer-out of a slip should accrue more suspicion than the slipmaker. We saw this in play last game when Colby accidentally referred to Ed as Bill and eventually got lynched for it and took Scathach out first. Both players were town as well as Ed. But Storyteller has a similar story where he as scum posted an analysis of a gamestate implicitly assuming three scum because he knew that number to be true but a town player would not have known, was called out for it, lynched and much rejoicing was had. To be fair, I was scum with storyteller in that game and town didn't lynch him until four Days later due to brilliant bullet-dodging by him and a fake detective claim. On the other hand, I think these two examples (and I'm using these two because I don't know/wasn't a part of the third) show two very different types of slips. Story's "slip" was a gamestate slip, a showing of PIS. Colby's slip was a memory fart/typo. I believe (and yelled about it adamantly, maybe a little too adamantly, in the last game) that typos/memory farts aren't good slips to go on witch hunts for, because town and scum can both screw up when they're typing something up, and it's not a good indication unless you have other evidence in their behavior to back it up. A PIS slip, in my opinion, if analyzed correctly should be seized upon.
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Post by LightFoot on Nov 20, 2011 14:30:31 GMT -5
I myself, take each "slip" as my gut feels it (I can't NOT notice and if it feels scummy= a vote will occur) I've chewed the hades out of innocent slips and disregarded scummy ones. ( and v/v) I'm not accurate or sane sometimes
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 20, 2011 14:37:26 GMT -5
I was not in that game and was pulling my info from his earlier post Today; I apologize for any confusion that arose.
Sangaman's was pretty much exactly the same as Storyteller's. And part of my point in bringing it up is exactly what you have commented on. Not all slips are equal and if we talk about them some we provide the same opportunities for scum flubs without being unnecessarily speculative. I would be curious to know what you consider the correct analysis of a PIS slip and I think it would also be beneficial to reopen some older discussion on lurkers, 3rd party vs scum lynches, and policy votes as we have a relatively larger contingent of new players who could benefit as much or better from discussion of universal game traits as opposed to a specialty mechanic that is unlikely to crop up again for a while.
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Post by Caerie on Nov 20, 2011 14:43:54 GMT -5
I myself, take each "slip" as my gut feels it (I can't NOT notice and if it feels scummy= a vote will occur) I've chewed the hades out of innocent slips and disregarded scummy ones. ( and v/v) I'm not accurate or sane sometimes I'd tend to come down on this side as well, though I know my gut can lead me astray too. I once argued myself to death trying to defend someone I was sure was town from being lynched--fluiddruid, I think--and in the end they turned out to be scum.
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Nov 20, 2011 14:54:48 GMT -5
Well regarding slips.... Day 1 (if we take the last game here as a benchmark) then I don't think we should hold to much against someone who makes a slip.... For those of you that weren't there... Colby11 I believe made a comment using another players name that appeared to be referring to a conversation they had had... Colby11 was TOWN Don't remind me........
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 20, 2011 15:36:12 GMT -5
We've all had those days where we feel like we just got ramrodded on a lynch. Take pride in it; it usually means you were on to something.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 20, 2011 15:46:29 GMT -5
I would be curious to know what you consider the correct analysis of a PIS slip and I think it would also be beneficial to reopen some older discussion on lurkers, 3rd party vs scum lynches, and policy votes as we have a relatively larger contingent of new players who could benefit as much or better from discussion of universal game traits as opposed to a specialty mechanic that is unlikely to crop up again for a while. It all depends on what kind of PIS it is. The basic mafia mechanic is that town has numbers at its advantage, and scum has knowledge. Scum know who the other scum are and who is town/non-scum. Any displayed PIS where a player is entirely too certain of how many scum there are and who is/isn't town should be looked at carefully. We can extrapolate from that to apply it to this game: scum normally have the advantage in knowledge to town's numbers. It would be a not-that-out-there assumption to think that the scum have some sort of knowledge base on the collars and links and such. Something to tip information in their favor. The problem is, in a game like this, invariably there are going to be some power roles that know something about the gamestate that vanilla town or vanilla power roles don't. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were at least one or two power roles that dealt directly with the collar mechanic, and as such, if someone is accused of PIS it would be smart to think about whether the information they're accused of having is more likely to be given to scum or town to balance the information spectrum. That being said, I don't like the idea of steering the conversation away from a mechanic that's in this game simply because it won't show up in other games. The Lovers power role has been in several mafia games, and this may just be a game of Lovers if all lynches/Nightkills are connected, but we've yet to have 100% proof of that. The mechanic is present in this game, which means we should definitely discuss it because it applies to us right now. We just shouldn't let an assumption of how the mechanic works dominate the conversation, only to find out that isn't how it works at all. But I'll bite on the other topics as well: 3rd parties are there to balance the game between scum and town. Look at Bill in the last game, he turned the game from a sure scum win into a town win with how he acted the last two Days. 3rd parties are always a game of chicken between the two sides. Scum want 3rd parties lynched so they don't waste a Nightkill, and town want 3rd parties Nightkilled so they don't waste a lynch. Removing a 3rd party early in the game often times tips balance one way or the other, especially when one is lynched. My personal opinion is that in deciding between lynching a known third party and a probable scum, always go with scum. It's highly unlikely there's a 3rd party in this game IF all collars are linked in lynches and Nightkills, just for balancing purposes. But if there aren't dual deaths every Day and Night, I could see a rogue agent being out there, maybe.
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Post by special on Nov 20, 2011 16:46:51 GMT -5
Why would a power role stay quiet if everyone were very careful about not leaking PIS during discussions about things about which we will shortly have more information. There is nothing to do in the game right now but speculate. If you avoid any speculation to avoid outing yourself, what exactly are you supposed to do instead? vote for people. See how they react. typical Day 1 stuff. What would we do on day 1 if this mechanic weren't in the game?
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Post by special on Nov 20, 2011 16:49:46 GMT -5
@ Special Ed, do you think we're going to learn that much after one cycle? We may see that the lynch triggers 0, 1 or 2 deaths: is it by design, a Day power, a role trait, or something else? And if we wake up to 0, 1, 2, or more deaths, won't we still be speculating about the existence of, or lack of, docs, SKs, PFKs, 3rd parties, roleblockers, redirectors, etc? @ Inner, I've started the lynch bandwagon against several Townies (as scum, pfk and Town) so I've learned to look at a player's actions as a whole rather than base a case on a single slip. I believe we have the potential to learn something after 1 cycle. And mroe than that after 2 cycles. We will have more information with which to speculate as well as make decisions. Are you implying that our speculation toDay will lead to better decisions to determine our lynch while still not giving away too much information for the Scum NK? Or, are you implying that we still won't have information toMorrow?
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Post by special on Nov 20, 2011 16:51:22 GMT -5
Well regarding slips.... Day 1 (if we take the last game here as a benchmark) then I don't think we should hold to much against someone who makes a slip.... For those of you that weren't there... Colby11 I believe made a comment using another players name that appeared to be referring to a conversation they had had... Colby11 was TOWN So yeah it's a balancing act but I'd sooner balance by saying stuff and having discussion / speculation rather than people being quite for fear of "appearing" to make some sort of slip. Sorry I skimmed (whoo SCUM tell) Inner Sticklers post so am sort of repeating the Colby11 thing. We can talk, sure. But we do need to be careful. I've been in too many games where we give away information to the Scum/3rd party inadvertently during "speculation" And gained nothing whatsoever to help us decide on lynches.
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Post by Colby11 on Nov 20, 2011 17:45:01 GMT -5
Regarding slips, I think that slips CAN help to catch scum. Then again, they can help to get people out more quickly.
I'm on the "Let's judge a slip based on how it is used" context. Though, I would be on this fence just because of the last game... But last game I also assumed how many scum there would be, which is probably the 2nd thing that probably got me lynched (along with my play at the end of Day 2 which is #3.)
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Post by guiri on Nov 20, 2011 17:55:38 GMT -5
I believe we have the potential to learn something after 1 cycle. And mroe than that after 2 cycles. We will have more information with which to speculate as well as make decisions. Are you implying that our speculation toDay will lead to better decisions to determine our lynch while still not giving away too much information for the Scum NK? Or, are you implying that we still won't have information toMorrow? In #94 you said that we'd shortly have more information about the things being discussed, I'm asking if you think we'll be that much wiser about the setup and possible mechanics after a single cycle to be able to discuss and speculate without the same risk of giving too much information to scum. If by "shortly", you meant "as the game progresses", I agree: reveals, claims with results, patterns, and so on will give us much stronger grounds to stand on.
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Post by special on Nov 20, 2011 18:22:51 GMT -5
I believe we have the potential to learn something after 1 cycle. And mroe than that after 2 cycles. We will have more information with which to speculate as well as make decisions. Are you implying that our speculation toDay will lead to better decisions to determine our lynch while still not giving away too much information for the Scum NK? Or, are you implying that we still won't have information toMorrow? In #94 you said that we'd shortly have more information about the things being discussed, I'm asking if you think we'll be that much wiser about the setup and possible mechanics after a single cycle to be able to discuss and speculate without the same risk of giving too much information to scum. If by "shortly", you meant "as the game progresses", I agree: reveals, claims with results, patterns, and so on will give us much stronger grounds to stand on. We have no information about how the collars might play out. After 1 cycle we will have infinitely more information.
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Post by sinjin on Nov 20, 2011 19:27:44 GMT -5
Bah! I agree with Ed.....again. Loose Lips Sink Ships and I think some folks may have inadvertently given away too much info. I've gone back and forth about posting this but I'm generally clueless and if I can see it so can scum. Story/Sacher game set-up talk, while generally over my head, makes some sense. Speculation about power roles, not so much.
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Post by Paranoia on Nov 20, 2011 20:30:27 GMT -5
So this is lovely n' all but my vote on Sis C is still the only vote so far no one apparently has noticed anything to lynch over and we are well on our way to the usual day one OH GOD WHO DO WE LYNCH AAAAA thing that happens lately.
Like. Seriously this mechanical nattery is interesting n' all but it's dominating everything.
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Post by Colby11 on Nov 20, 2011 20:50:17 GMT -5
Ok I'll bring this up, cause it's gonna come up sooner or later...
Should we lynch the inactive players or not?
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Post by Drain Bead on Nov 20, 2011 20:54:02 GMT -5
Ah what the hell.
Vote: Inner Stickler
For trying to tell Town power roles what to do (with the end result being that if they follow his rules, Scum might be able to find them easier due to their overly-cautious playstyle), and for changing the discussion to irrelevant policy, which tells us next to nothing about anyone.
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Post by Mahaloth on Nov 20, 2011 21:33:58 GMT -5
There is nothing to do in the game right now but speculate. If you avoid any speculation to avoid outing yourself, what exactly are you supposed to do instead? vote for people. See how they react. typical Day 1 stuff. What would we do on day 1 if this mechanic weren't in the game? Complain about not knowing what to do on Day One, I expect. It's a crap shoot, honestly, always is. My two cents? Discuss what we think of the mechanisms all we want, I guess. In the end, I'll just vote for whomever is the most suspicious. I mean, all we can do is play normally and hope the gasterd stuff does not blow up on us.
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Post by Silver Jan on Nov 21, 2011 1:29:21 GMT -5
Ok I'll bring this up, cause it's gonna come up sooner or later... Should we lynch the inactive players or not? I am very twixt and tween on this one, I have seen both active and inactive scum. You know, really thinking about, scum are mostly the more active players as they want to look as if they are helping Town. But, I do remember giving a lurker a free pass though cos his dog had died, he was scum As for slips, I have said things that look as if I know more than I actually do and it was just assumption on my part. I think it should depend on the context of the slip i.e. forgetting to take out "parity with Town" in a fake claim as has happened recently.
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Post by CatInASuit on Nov 21, 2011 3:18:54 GMT -5
Does the lynch detonate the lynchee's collar? The lynchee's collar will be activated on lynch. Wow, I haven't seen this much actual conversation on day 1 of Day 1 for a long time. Good job Cat* I just went back and reread the sign up sheet and was going to post something similar to what Pollux just posted and since there is so much speculation I'll go straight to the Cat's mouth: Do linked collars explode on lynching, vigging, and or NK'ing*Obligatory massaging of the mod's ego. My ego's fine, but my shoulders could use some work. No comment BTW. I don't expect Cat to comment on Night kills, but I do think that it is only fair to ask regarding the lynch: Is the lynch mechanism one that will, under ordinary circumstances and if no power(s) are employed, cause the player linked to the lynch target to die as well?When a collar is activated, if possible the linked collar will also be activated.
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Post by guiri on Nov 21, 2011 5:18:14 GMT -5
Bah! I agree with Ed.....again. Loose Lips Sink Ships and I think some folks may have inadvertently given away too much info. I've gone back and forth about posting this but I'm generally clueless and if I can see it so can scum. What did you see? If you think scum can see it, why bring it up without discussing it? What makes you think the players who gave away too much info are not scum themselves? Vote SinjinStory/Sacher game set-up talk, while generally over my head, makes some sense. Speculation about power roles, not so much. In Sach's game set-up talk in #4 he was the first to speculate on a "separation mechanism" and an "in-game mechanism to learn attachments", is that speculation on game set-up or speculation about power roles?
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