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Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 24, 2012 16:25:15 GMT -5
[THIS IS NOT ME CLAIMING MASON WITH KIDV BY NOT CLAIMING MASON WITH KIDV] [HEY BILLMC THIS IS NOT A CLAIM DONT SAY IT IS FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY OMFG]
Disclaimers out of the way, after last game. And by the way, this is all BillMc's fault.
THIS IS NOT A CLAIM YOU WHORES OK, but are you a Mason?
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 24, 2012 16:57:14 GMT -5
Well that sets the bar as a pretty wet noodle for parsing alleged PMs for authenticity. Only if we conclude that Mahaloth was completely forthcoming with his PM. He picked up most, if not all, of his votes because people thought his PM as quoted sounded like it had been edited. The fact that his role reveal was as claimed does not necessarily mean everything else he told us was gospel truth. It's quite possible that he could be recruited by Scum, but edited that out in order to appear less potentially harmful and thus make him a less attractive lynch target...and that strategy backfired. Only time (and the end of the game) will tell. Exactly. Nothing firmly established one way or the other, i.e. a wet noodle.
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Post by Mahaloth on Sept 24, 2012 17:42:55 GMT -5
Inner, I can talk more about the odd role and my decision to claim later. I still think it was a reasonable thing to do with the role. I admit it was a gamble(one that I obviously lost), but I did not expect it to get me lynched immediately. I guess I was wrong about that. Oh, well.
Go...uh, third party non-hostiles with odd/limiting wincons!
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Post by Mahaloth on Sept 24, 2012 17:43:49 GMT -5
Spoil me, Pollux, please.
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Post by Mahaloth on Sept 24, 2012 17:44:09 GMT -5
Oh, and I have returned to dying Day One! Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Sept 24, 2012 17:47:27 GMT -5
Three kingdoms was multifaction with three groups. Each group was strong against one clan and weak against the other. Talking about your powers was verboten. One of the players, roosh, maybe started talking about how he hated shoes which was code that as healer(?maybe?) he was ineffective against members of the Shu clan. It didn't work and he lost his power. Do you hate shoes is a common question to ask when you think someone may be breadcrumbing. Nearly. Roosh was the Doctor who could protect against Shu kills. That's why DiggitCamara and I cackled with glee as he swung. (Then the next Day we lynched the Doc who could protect against all kills.) As far as I can recall, that game ended in stalemate - DarkCookies and I vote each other by Day then fight to a draw at Night. Silly Wei, not surrendering to the might of the all-conquering Shu. Also, subscribing.
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Post by crys on Sept 24, 2012 17:47:34 GMT -5
Well it looks like his role was truthful at least.
Sent from my SCH-I405 using proboards
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 24, 2012 18:17:22 GMT -5
Wei have a slogan is short, pithy, AND it rhymes. Shu? Peeyoo!
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Post by crys on Sept 24, 2012 18:50:27 GMT -5
Well, that's unfortunate. Sorry, Maha. Final treatment was done today, so I'll have more time and (hopefully) brain cells for the rest of the game... I am glad the treatments are over. I hope you start to feel better soon. I imagine they took quite a bit out of you Sent from my SCH-I405 using proboards
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 24, 2012 18:55:44 GMT -5
Now if everyone is sick of me waxing poetic about mafia theory, I'll go back to babbling like an insane cretin and active lurking. Mwa-ha-ha. What do you mean "go back" ? ;D Seriously, I was glad I had context for that string of posts. Fun while it lasted. It was nice.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Sept 24, 2012 20:55:44 GMT -5
As for my vote: I normally am going to vote for someone I think is scum, regardless of what else is going on. More generally, what I see as a threat to town. Scum is usually better since the voting record is more valuable. Mahaloth didn't seem like scum to me. I mostly believed his claim (and I think I was right about it, more or less. Sorry to see him gone). The voting record on a third-party doesn't reveal much. The discussion is valuable, maybe, but that's all we have now.
That's also what made me realize that my vote, if it did indeed lynch KidVermicious, would have revealed almost no information. There was mahaloth, acting rationally in self-interest; gnarlycharlie, who I think voted before KidV claimed the bid but did seem aware of it after; and myself. There just wasn't enough of a record generated by that to really be meaningful if KidV turned town. Even if he showed scum, it would be great but of little information otherwise. There was no discussion, and no way to tell if people were avoiding the issue or just confident in their Mahaloth vote.
And that's another problem with high bids - a handful of people could have swung the vote and it would have revealed little to us.
Now I can accept that if he's not scum (or even if he is) KidV did not foresee all these things and might have misjudged the necessary bid level. I'm not saying it's definitely a scum move. But at the time, it seemed to me a better chance of him being scum than anyone else in the game. I'm still leaning that way. I admit one thing I didn't think about was why KidV wanted to survive as town, aside from wanting to prevent a mislynch — he surely wanted to use the merc Tonight, which was probably more motivation than I was thinking he would have.
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Post by crys on Sept 24, 2012 21:53:55 GMT -5
As for my vote: I normally am going to vote for someone I think is scum, regardless of what else is going on. More generally, what I see as a threat to town. Scum is usually better since the voting record is more valuable. Mahaloth didn't seem like scum to me. I mostly believed his claim (and I think I was right about it, more or less. Sorry to see him gone). The voting record on a third-party doesn't reveal much. The discussion is valuable, maybe, but that's all we have now. That's also what made me realize that my vote, if it did indeed lynch KidVermicious, would have revealed almost no information. There was mahaloth, acting rationally in self-interest; gnarlycharlie, who I think voted before KidV claimed the bid but did seem aware of it after; and myself. There just wasn't enough of a record generated by that to really be meaningful if KidV turned town. Even if he showed scum, it would be great but of little information otherwise. There was no discussion, and no way to tell if people were avoiding the issue or just confident in their Mahaloth vote. And that's another problem with high bids - a handful of people could have swung the vote and it would have revealed little to us. Now I can accept that if he's not scum (or even if he is) KidV did not foresee all these things and might have misjudged the necessary bid level. I'm not saying it's definitely a scum move. But at the time, it seemed to me a better chance of him being scum than anyone else in the game. I'm still leaning that way. I admit one thing I didn't think about was why KidV wanted to survive as town, aside from wanting to prevent a mislynch — he surely wanted to use the merc Tonight, which was probably more motivation than I was thinking he would have. I think I am partially in agreement with you here. I agree he wanted to use the merc, but sharing the win pm does seem to be more towards town imo.
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Post by Rich Beckman on Sept 24, 2012 23:21:44 GMT -5
<snip> I think I am partially in agreement with you here. I agree he wanted to use the merc, but sharing the win pm does seem to be more towards town imo. Who shared the win pm? KidV? I can't find where he did that.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Sept 24, 2012 23:51:35 GMT -5
Regarding your other questions, I'm willing to offer information as a demonstration of good faith. I don't think it hurts me or Town to reveal the PM I received after winning the Mercenary auction. What I don't know is exactly what bid threshold gets you where on that list, or if there's something above Wetwork (!!!) should a player bid higher. I have some specific questions into Pollux right now about the details of a couple of those mechanics - if I think the answers to those questions should be public knowledge I'll reveal them too.
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Post by Red Skeezix on Sept 25, 2012 1:33:34 GMT -5
I think I am partially in agreement with you here. I agree he wanted to use the merc, but sharing the win pm does seem to be more towards town imo. I'm inclined to think it's a null tell. If he is scum, he might suspect that his winning bid would become public somehow, and feel inclined to share so he wouldn't have to explain why he didn't share later on.
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Post by KidVermicious on Sept 25, 2012 7:39:16 GMT -5
I think I am partially in agreement with you here. I agree he wanted to use the merc, but sharing the win pm does seem to be more towards town imo. I'm inclined to think it's a null tell. If he is scum, he might suspect that his winning bid would become public somehow, and feel inclined to share so he wouldn't have to explain why he didn't share later on. I'm not parsing this, sorry. Crys is referring to my sharing the Merc powers PM, which I gave up freely, and well after I'd already shared that I'd won the mercenary auction, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here?
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Post by KidVermicious on Sept 25, 2012 8:01:42 GMT -5
Peeker, can we talk about your Role PM? I'm trying to understand what happened with the reveal of your role name. Night Zero, you replied to Guiri's list of possible roles with this: guiri. where in the world is ironman? invincible, unstopable and willing to do what ever it takes to win. i'm ironman and will not cease or ever lessen my attempts at taking down the enemies of the realm. That reads like you goofing around, which is how I took it at the time. Then Pollux drew up Dawn color that included you claiming to be Ironman, but then revealed your role name as Deadpool. I've been chewing on it, and I want to think that Pollux was going to reveal your rolename anyway due to some ingame mechanic, and chose to do it by riffing off your throwaway line N0. But that doesn't really jive with your reaction to the reveal, does it? Peeker = Deadpool is about as mod-confirmed as you can get in this game. <snipped> wait, what? i thought i was ironman? reevaluation of strategy is commenced. plus the blue is making me a touch on the nervous side. ok i looked at deadpool on wiki. i guess i can get down with that. he seems to be ripped about the same as me. i don't particularily like the disfigurement part (i've been circumcised and that's about it). the footwear looks a lot like it is too heavy. mentally unstable i can deal with. but the dual katanas look kind of outdoorsy and major cool.
Wait, are you saying that you didn't know you were Deadpool until now? Or am I misreading?i don't pay attention to color very much and comics even less. yes, i knew i was deadpool but also know that i am also supposed to be ironman. well i kind of knew that ironman was some sort of comic dude (i think their may have been a movie) but really thought that deadpool was just random musings. now if i had been named jack nicklaus, tom watson or lee trevino i kind of would have figured that out. plus the only other thing i know about ironman is that he was in an ozzy song. If I read the rules correctly then the Mod said he wouldn't lie to players but if Peeker had a PM as Iron Man then surely he would need a new PM as Deadpool and his first PM would have been a lie. I really am thinking out loud here. Peeks never said he was Iron Man, the Mod said that in the colour so it could be just a straight forward reveal? i think i claimed ironman in N0 That reads a lot more like you really were claiming Ironman, and thought you had good reason to do so. In particular, when you say "yes, i knew i was deadpool but also know that i am also supposed to be ironman", that looks a lot like a roundabout way of saying that you've got 2 role PMs. I'm recalling Story's speculation that some folks might have cover PMs, and I'm suddenly kinda nervous about you. I know you like to be cryptic, but I gotta be honest, I'd really like to hear an explanation for your claim to be Ironman but reveal as Deadpool.
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Post by peekercpa on Sept 25, 2012 8:41:00 GMT -5
I have to say I'm not liking the mercenary so far; is there anything we can do about that? maybe kill anyone who claims to be so?
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Post by peekercpa on Sept 25, 2012 8:54:43 GMT -5
<snipped> As for my vote: I normally am going to vote for someone I think is scum, regardless of what else is going on. <snipped> There just wasn't enough of a record generated by that to really be meaningful if KidV turned town. Even if he showed scum, it would be great but of little information otherwise. <snipped> But at the time, it seemed to me a better chance of him being scum than anyone else in the game. I'm still leaning that way. I admit one thing I didn't think about was why KidV wanted to survive as town, aside from wanting to prevent a mislynch — he surely wanted to use the merc Tonight, which was probably more motivation than I was thinking he would have. 1 and 2 seem discongruent to me. and i assume 3 is the reasing for voting for stickler? right?
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Post by peekercpa on Sept 25, 2012 9:07:36 GMT -5
kid if i am still alive tomorrow morning we can talk about this in additional depth.
but i will say this i do not have two pms.
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Post by Rich Beckman on Sept 25, 2012 10:03:53 GMT -5
Regarding your other questions, I'm willing to offer information as a demonstration of good faith. I don't think it hurts me or Town to reveal the PM I received after winning the Mercenary auction. What I don't know is exactly what bid threshold gets you where on that list, or if there's something above Wetwork (!!!) should a player bid higher. I have some specific questions into Pollux right now about the details of a couple of those mechanics - if I think the answers to those questions should be public knowledge I'll reveal them too. Oh. That pm. I saw that. When I read win pm, it did not make sense to me. My mind immediately went to win conditions and the role PM from the beginning of the game. Once there, there was no getting off that train. Maybe someday I will learn to read. Thanks, Inner Stickler.
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Sept 25, 2012 10:56:58 GMT -5
Going to go check the rules, maybe his name was revealed because he claimed to be Iron Man in Night 0?
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Sept 25, 2012 11:01:15 GMT -5
Going to go check the rules, maybe his name was revealed because he claimed to be Iron Man in Night 0? Just checked, saw nothing in the rules.... So... Dear awesome mod- could some player ps use their powers on Night 0?
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Sept 25, 2012 11:02:01 GMT -5
Going to go check the rules, maybe his name was revealed because he claimed to be Iron Man in Night 0? Just checked, saw nothing in the rules.... So... Dear awesome mod- could some player ps use their powers on Night 0?Should say "some players use"..... Stupid iPad
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 25, 2012 12:18:05 GMT -5
Catching up more thoroughly with Day One. Vote Pleonast - I have no idea about his claim, but I am doing something I know he hates. Making a survival vote to increase his vote count and perhaps save me. You're misremembering. First, I like it when players make scum tells, because it makes voting easy. Second, the scum tell is voting primarily in order to save yourself when you've claimed nothing or vanilla town. A power role always has the prerogative to vote to save themself. And a claimed third-party certainly does too. I'm asking people who are one-off voting in order to make their suspicions known to consider whether they find me or another vote leader more suspicious, and yeah, save me. I don't think I'm a better lynch target than Pleo or Mahaloth, and I'm hoping there will be enough others that feel the same. This is a bad idea. Players need to vote for who they think is most likely to be scum. By asking players to instead vote for other reasons, you are corrupting the vote record. Since then, Pleo has changed course and gone from low volume posting to high. this is quite in line with Pleo's known attitudes and opinions, at least as I understand them. However, it does mean readjusting what I said above, because if he continues on his present course, Pleo will reach his wincon before he can make his third investigation, and that is a problem. Why is it a problem? Do you really think that a victory condition that involves posting a lot will end the game when it's met? That's not gastard, that's anti-game. My main worry is that, even granting that Pleo will live after he has achieved his wincon, we will have no reason to believe him – he is not Town so why would we believe what he has to say? If Pleo were willing to spend a third use of his power on the player he investigates, we would at least have objective verification of the player's name, alignment and designation (which, for these purposes, I assume would be from Pleo's point of view). I'm not sure what you're worry is here. That I'll do the investigation, get the results, and then lie about what I got? Why would I do that? Any lie I make risks being discovered and then me promptly lynched or killed. Given that I'm third party and don't care who wins, lying about my investigations has no possible benefit.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 25, 2012 13:32:16 GMT -5
Going to go check the rules, maybe his name was revealed because he claimed to be Iron Man in Night 0? Just checked, saw nothing in the rules.... So... Dear awesome mod- could some player ps use their powers on Night 0?Pretty sure this has been asked and answered, and the only thing that Pollux said went down on Night 0 was merc bidding.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Sept 25, 2012 16:37:20 GMT -5
Why is [Pleo's change of course] a problem? Do you really think that a victory condition that involves posting a lot will end the game when it's met? That's not gastard, that's anti-game. It is indeed anti-game. It would also require you, in this game's terminology, to have a hostile wincon. I don't expect the game to end if you achieve your claimed wincon. What I expect is that, as a result, you will leave the game in the Dusk of Night 3 post. You will never carry out your promised investigations because you have won. That is a problem, because you are talking about doing things you will never do. My main worry is that, even granting that Pleo will live after he has achieved his wincon, we will have no reason to believe him – he is not Town so why would we believe what he has to say? If Pleo were willing to spend a third use of his power on the player he investigates, we would at least have objective verification of the player's name, alignment and designation (which, for these purposes, I assume would be from Pleo's point of view). I'm not sure what you're worry is here. That I'll do the investigation, get the results, and then lie about what I got? Why would I do that? Any lie I make risks being discovered and then me promptly lynched or killed. Given that I'm third party and don't care who wins, lying about my investigations has no possible benefit.Fair point. I guess the conclusion is that, assuming you keep up posting volume, if you are still in the game on Day 4 I won't believe what you told us about your wincon, so why should I believe any of your reports?
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Post by peekercpa on Sept 25, 2012 16:58:03 GMT -5
Fair point. I guess the conclusion is that, assuming you keep up posting volume, if you are still in the game on Day 4 I won't believe what you told us about your wincon, so why should I believe any of your reports? <snipped> this. additionally, if we take his claim at face value scum will know that potentially a team mate could be in danger and get rid of him before N3. furthermore, as others have observed, it is typical that when 3rd parties achieve their wincon they are removed from the game. in which case he potentially could be removed from the game by achieving his wincon before he even has a chance to complete the whole "investigation" cycle. so i guess if he stays around it's because we believe the whole non hostile thing not because he brings any value.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Sept 25, 2012 16:58:05 GMT -5
I spent some time over lunchbreak doodling on the back of a sheet of scrap paper. This was the result. The table shows the expected designation result for an investigator of the alignment and designator shown in the left hand column checking on a subject with the alignment and designator shown in the top row. | Town | Mafia | 3P NH | 3P Hos | Town | Non-Hostile | Hostile | Non-Hostile | Hostile | Mafia | Hostile | Hostile or Non-Hostile1 | Non-Hostile | Hostile | 3P NH | Hostile | Hostile | Non-Hostile | Hostile | 3P Hos | Hostile | Hostile | Non-Hostile | Hostile2 |
1A Mafia investigator checking on another Mafiate will get a non-hostile designation if the two are on the same Mafia team and share the same wincon. If there are multiple mafia teams, I assume each such team will be hostile to the other teams. Similarly, if there is a Mafia traitor (with a different wincon to the rest of the team) 3 they'd show hostile to another Mafiate's investigation. 2This assumes there are two or more Third Party Hostile players, and one of them is investigating another. 3This was billed as a Gastard game, so I decline to rule it out. Any Mafiate who wants to claim and reassure us Pollux told them there would be no traitors will enable me to remove that note.
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 25, 2012 17:19:10 GMT -5
I don't expect the game to end if you achieve your claimed wincon. What I expect is that, as a result, you will leave the game in the Dusk of Night 3 post. You will never carry out your promised investigations because you have won. My working theory is that I will not leave the game even after I've won it. There's no evidence in either my role PM or the game's rules that winning third parties exit the game. Fair point. I guess the conclusion is that, assuming you keep up posting volume, if you are still in the game on Day 4 I won't believe what you told us about your wincon, so why should I believe any of your reports? Just like any investigator, my results should be considered provisional until my alignment/designation has been mod-revealed. Players will have to balance between gaining future results and certainty in previous results. I don't expect to survive to the end of the game, so you'll get your mod confirmation of me sooner or later.
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