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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:29:54 GMT -5
I will clarify. In my role PM it states that the tag only wards off like-minded townie attackers. The tag acts as a beacon that wards them away. Town vigilantes want to kill successfully, for town, not kill townies. My tag enables them to do that. It's completely useless on scumbags, and third party hostiles, because it will allow the vig to occur in that circumstance. Perhaps you're not explaining it well, or perhaps I'm not understanding it well, but it still seems to me that your ability will work perfectly well to protect anyone. Town, Third Party, or Scum. So it will prevent a Town Vigilante from making a kill, but it doesn't guarantee that will actually be a positive thing for Town. I'm not saying I think you're lying; I;m saying I don't think your ability is quite as gloriously useful as you appear to. It is spelled out in my role PM that it does in fact turn away only town-on-town kills, in a manner which is impossible for me to misinterpret. If anyone I tag successfully dies by a town vigilante, then I am knowingly lying to you right now. I am 100% certain on this point and there's no ambiguity whatsoever.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 14:30:07 GMT -5
Sorry, weak doc, not backup.
Also, it's day 3 and so far there are two nonhostiles and 3 townies dead. It's a time for more information to come out because we clearly aren't doing well with what we have so far.
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Oct 5, 2012 14:34:06 GMT -5
Well that's safe since the person in question is dead and likely wouldn't have started the game as townie. If this was a living player, however, that would have been boneheaded as hell. I would not have named my target if he or she was still alive. Also, I do not learn if they have been successfully recruited to town or not
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:37:20 GMT -5
The time for more information to come out is not now, because that information will be particularly more useful for the scums this round.
We've already determined our safe lynchee and most likely scum this round, absent a detective claim to the contrary, we move forward on lynching Ginger.
We can't risk anything else.
Further, discussing suspects on this round beyond that might cause further town flinches, like what just happened. I suggest it's bad.
Now, I have a positive suggestion, and I highly recommend we get a lot of our best people involved, in fact everyone involved:
Spreadsheet data, now:
1) If something happened to you some night that is unique (stubbed toe, infected by virus) I need to know this. We need to enter it into a spreadsheet.
2) If you did something on a certain night that would help establish your whereabouts, but without revealing your actual role, simply indicate which person you visited that night, not what you did. We'll determine that later. We enter that into a spreadsheet.
3) The more data we enter into the spreadsheet which shows conclusively where people were on every night of the game, means that we can deduce that they were not scum murdering or scum roleblocking.
4) I need the scum blocker dead to be of any further use.
You guys need to deduce the scum blocker, and this game is full of roles which show up at other places, which are your alibis.
If you have an alibi, report it, so we can not only not lynch you, but also lynch scums who have no alibi because they were busy blocking me or killing townies.
This must be done today, because we have nothing further to discuss lynch-wise.
This is the perfect time and the perfect moment. We cannot waste further time. We have to make positive gains today.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 14:37:24 GMT -5
As far as Pizza goes, he's being his usual heavy-handed and presumptive self. Forgive me. I've been trying to be very diplomatic and I'm in a circumstance where I must get the point across in no uncertain terms. Listen, if you were in my shoes, you'd be presuming and being heavy handed here as well. This is not a pizzaguy flaw, this is the inherent risk that comes with the job of being a townie. Sometimes you have to say HEY, that action you're doing is bad for town. HEY, your continued refusal to explain why you think JustBeingGinger is Scum is bad for Town
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:38:16 GMT -5
Well that's safe since the person in question is dead and likely wouldn't have started the game as townie. If this was a living player, however, that would have been boneheaded as hell. I would not have named my target if he or she was still alive. Also, I do not learn if they have been successfully recruited to town or not Unfortunate but understandable. Frankly if you can name even one living convert to town, and they admit they started 3rd party, and became town on the night you said, and then they die and flip townie, that establishes you as town beyond all doubt.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:38:39 GMT -5
Forgive me. I've been trying to be very diplomatic and I'm in a circumstance where I must get the point across in no uncertain terms. Listen, if you were in my shoes, you'd be presuming and being heavy handed here as well. This is not a pizzaguy flaw, this is the inherent risk that comes with the job of being a townie. Sometimes you have to say HEY, that action you're doing is bad for town. HEY, your continued refusal to explain why you think JustBeingGinger is Scum is bad for Town I explained it VERY THOROUGHLY AND IN GREAT DETAIL YESTERDAY
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:39:06 GMT -5
Frankly, I wouldn't shut up about it. What game are you reading dude?
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Oct 5, 2012 14:40:01 GMT -5
The last piece that I can give is that my PM does hint at the fact that I do have a backup.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:49:06 GMT -5
The last piece that I can give is that my PM does hint at the fact that I do have a backup. That was almost a given. If you die N1 without a backup town loses. Town should never, ever have a role that costs them the game if it dies N1. Thank Pollux Oil for being a sane game host.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 5, 2012 14:49:57 GMT -5
I think he might be making an assumption that the two Peacekeepers both started in the same state (e.g., Third Party) and that Colby converted one to Town.
I am not entirely convinced this is a safe assumption, mind.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:50:10 GMT -5
Still, there's no reason why you should be without the Merc protection from here on out.
If anyone disagrees, I need to be told very slowly and carefully, I need to be talked to like I am a child, and told why they disagree.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 14:51:02 GMT -5
HEY, your continued refusal to explain why you think JustBeingGinger is Scum is bad for Town I explained it VERY THOROUGHLY AND IN GREAT DETAIL YESTERDAY Actually, it was last Night. I know this now because I went back and looked at all of your posts searching for "Ginger". You think she lied about how she edited her PM, and you think her timidity with regards to using her power indicates that she's Scum. All you had to do was restate that any one of the several times I asked you, and I would have stopped asking. As usual, I think you're way too confident in your own abilities. Which isn't to say that you're not correct in this case, but I don't think the evidence is nearly as clear cut as you do.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:54:45 GMT -5
I think he might be making an assumption that the two Peacekeepers both started in the same state (e.g., Third Party) and that Colby converted one to Town. I am not entirely convinced this is a safe assumption, mind. Close but not quite. The role in question was particularly non-critical to the town. A weak bodyguard role is not critical. If town begins with 6-7 roles or whatever Skeezix said was there a couple rounds ago, each role is particularly necessary. Likely a town vig, but also possible there is no starting town vig and there are a couple recruitable third party killers, which become town vigs. My role complements such a vigilante. Town converter, obviously. Doctor, as we already know. Starting town detective. Possible masons. I don't see a weak bodyguard fitting into that equation as starting town.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 14:57:20 GMT -5
I explained it VERY THOROUGHLY AND IN GREAT DETAIL YESTERDAY Actually, it was last Night. I know this now because I went back and looked at all of your posts searching for "Ginger". You think she lied about how she edited her PM, and you think her timidity with regards to using her power indicates that she's Scum. All you had to do was restate that any one of the several times I asked you, and I would have stopped asking. As usual, I think you're way too confident in your own abilities. Which isn't to say that you're not correct in this case, but I don't think the evidence is nearly as clear cut as you do. Now you're telling me, in error, what I did or did not do in this game. I made a massive stink on Day Two why Ginger was lying, flinching, and the best lead we had on scum all game. You only read back to Night Two apparently. That's why I'm getting frustrated. I have been talking about Ginger for many real life days and two game phases now. Three if you count night and day as separate phases.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 5, 2012 14:59:25 GMT -5
I think he might be making an assumption that the two Peacekeepers both started in the same state (e.g., Third Party) and that Colby converted one to Town. I am not entirely convinced this is a safe assumption, mind. Close but not quite. The role in question was particularly non-critical to the town. A weak bodyguard role is not critical. If town begins with 6-7 roles or whatever Skeezix said was there a couple rounds ago, each role is particularly necessary. Likely a town vig, but also possible there is no starting town vig and there are a couple recruitable third party killers, which become town vigs. My role complements such a vigilante. Town converter, obviously. Doctor, as we already know. Starting town detective. Possible masons. I don't see a weak bodyguard fitting into that equation as starting town. Fair enough. Should have considered things with my game designer helmet on. It only looks like a tin foil hat.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 15:04:45 GMT -5
Perhaps you're not explaining it well, or perhaps I'm not understanding it well, but it still seems to me that your ability will work perfectly well to protect anyone. Town, Third Party, or Scum. So it will prevent a Town Vigilante from making a kill, but it doesn't guarantee that will actually be a positive thing for Town. A townie tagged by pizzaguy is impervious to the vig. A scum or third party is not regardless of whether they're tagged or not. Yes. I get that. What I'm getting at is that it seems that anyone Pizza tags will be immune to a Town Vig Kill. If he tags a Townie, that's great. If he tags a Nonhostile Third Party, that's still OK. If he tags a Hostile Third Party or a Scum, that's bad, because Town now has one less method of eliminating them. I've been trying to ascertain if Pizza understands this, since he seems to be claiming that every time he fails to tag someone, it's a nail in the Town's coffin. That's true only if he actually tags Town every Night. And regarding Pizza's claim...why did he do it? He got blocked last Night. So he couldn't protect someone. OK, let's say that was indeed bad, because the person he would have tagged is actually Town. Why did he jump to the conclusion that his power is now useless for the rest of the game? If he had kept his mouth shut, then whoever blocked him wouldn't have had any idea what sort of ability they prevented. There's a fair chance they would have blocked someone else Tonight, instead of blocking him again. He could have waited a Day, to see it he was blocked again. But instead he claimed right away, so that the Roleblocker now knows exactly what it is he does. Yet another unforced, poorly timed claim.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 15:08:35 GMT -5
There's a lot of things were are deducible even with the limited data we have going forward, if we assume most of it is truthful. Here's the problem with skepticism to the point of paranoia:
You ignore all the potential benefits of having information which doesn't need to be proven conclusively.
Based on only the publicly available data, it is possible to determine the entire makeup of the starting townie force. One of them is going to be the town recruiter, another the backup recruiter, another the dead townie doctor, and given what the game host has stated, masons are quite likely.
Based on the claims thusfar, it's also possible to extrapolate who is the most valuable townie alive. And therefore, who must be protected nightly without fail.
Furthermore, we have a lot of other public data; someone going around stubbing toes. Someone going around infecting. Blue pee. Curses. Dolls.
All of this data can be used to spreadsheet our way to deduction: If you can cross off half the player list as being elsewhere, you can increase your odds of lynching correctly by double.
It cannot be overemphasized how powerful this tool is. This is more powerful than three townie detectives.
Everyone's little oddball bullshit roles that do weird things that show up to others, is more powerful than detectives. Because two people have to be lying for the claim to be wrong.
With a detective, only one person has to lie.
And there are like 5 or more of you running around creating alibis. That we know of already.
As such, if we don't use this data now to win the game, or at least double our odds of victory, then we are wasting this round.
Once we determine who we can/should safely lynch, we should be fact-collecting and comparing that data.
No more roleclaims and no more vote pressure should be done, except to dogpile the leader and ensure the merc person survives the day.
If anyone is particularly good at operating spreadsheets and likes this sort of thing, they should volunteer to maintain it.
You guys remember the board game Clue?
If you know it wasn't Mr Green, because you have the Mr Green card, you don't necessarily accuse Mr Green. Sometimes you do to throw off your opponent, but you don't under any circumstances LYNCH Mr Green.
If you know it wasn't the lead pipe, you don't accuse the guy with the lead pipe.
If you know it wasn't in the Parlor, then you don't accuse the guy in the Parlor. (so to speak. The last two aren't meant literally).
If you know X was infecting Y with a virus last night, and both admit it, then you know X was not roleblocking Askthepizzaguy and X was not murdering townies.
Spreadsheets are your friend and will solve the game here.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 15:11:31 GMT -5
A townie tagged by pizzaguy is impervious to the vig. A scum or third party is not regardless of whether they're tagged or not. Yes. I get that. What I'm getting at is that it seems that anyone Pizza tags will be immune to a Town Vig Kill. If he tags a Townie, that's great. If he tags a Nonhostile Third Party, that's still OK. If he tags a Hostile Third Party or a Scum, that's bad, because Town now has one less method of eliminating them. I've been trying to ascertain if Pizza understands this, since he seems to be claiming that every time he fails to tag someone, it's a nail in the Town's coffin. That's true only if he actually tags Town every Night. And regarding Pizza's claim...why did he do it? He got blocked last Night. So he couldn't protect someone. OK, let's say that was indeed bad, because the person he would have tagged is actually Town. Why did he jump to the conclusion that his power is now useless for the rest of the game? If he had kept his mouth shut, then whoever blocked him wouldn't have had any idea what sort of ability they prevented. There's a fair chance they would have blocked someone else Tonight, instead of blocking him again. He could have waited a Day, to see it he was blocked again. But instead he claimed right away, so that the Roleblocker now knows exactly what it is he does. Yet another unforced, poorly timed claim. The timing was perfect. I am already outed as a starting townie role, and I can be used to deduce certain things about the game setup. I am already a prime murder target for the scums. I already know that the doctor, whoever is remaining, that being the Merc most likely, cannot and should not defend me tonight. I can also be roleblocked at will. Do you prefer to wait until I die to claim? I can't reveal this stuff when I'm dead, and there's no reason to believe I will ever be able to tag anyone successfully ever again, and there's no reason to believe I survive to the next day or the day after at the most.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 15:11:53 GMT -5
Actually, it was last Night. I know this now because I went back and looked at all of your posts searching for "Ginger". You think she lied about how she edited her PM, and you think her timidity with regards to using her power indicates that she's Scum. All you had to do was restate that any one of the several times I asked you, and I would have stopped asking. As usual, I think you're way too confident in your own abilities. Which isn't to say that you're not correct in this case, but I don't think the evidence is nearly as clear cut as you do. Now you're telling me, in error, what I did or did not do in this game. I made a massive stink on Day Two why Ginger was lying, flinching, and the best lead we had on scum all game. You only read back to Night Two apparently. That's why I'm getting frustrated. I have been talking about Ginger for many real life days and two game phases now. Three if you count night and day as separate phases. I geuss I missed it on my review. I definitely missed it the first time around (or, possibly, noted it at the time, but have since forgotten about it). WHICH IS WHY I ASKED YOU TO STATE YOUR CASE. I don't have a eidetic memory; I can't recall every case that every player has made about every other player. So sometimes I ask people to state their case, even when they have already explained it previously. And since you didn't actually vote for Ginger on Day 1, instead placing votes at random for I'm guessing I thought you didn't have particularly strong suspicions, or you would have actually, you know, acted upon them.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 15:16:05 GMT -5
"What I'm getting at is that it seems that anyone Pizza tags will be immune to a Town Vig Kill."
Incorrect and I've stated explicitly that that's not how my role works. Repeatedly, in fact.
It's very clear: My target does not die if they are townie and the killer is townie. It specifically states that if I tag a scumbag, the vigilante can kill them without the tag having an effect.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Oct 5, 2012 15:17:25 GMT -5
What I'm getting at is that it seems that anyone Pizza tags will be immune to a Town Vig Kill. If he tags a Townie, that's great. If he tags a Nonhostile Third Party, that's still OK. The tag does not impede the vig kill.If he tags a Hostile Third Party or a Scum, that's bad, because Town now has one less method of eliminating them.The tag does not impede the vig kill.Marooning mine.
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 5, 2012 15:19:29 GMT -5
All I can say is this- lynch me, and Town will lose. Period posting as i catch up so if there are redundancies tough. don't make a lick to me. i ain't town.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 15:20:08 GMT -5
Now you're telling me, in error, what I did or did not do in this game. I made a massive stink on Day Two why Ginger was lying, flinching, and the best lead we had on scum all game. You only read back to Night Two apparently. That's why I'm getting frustrated. I have been talking about Ginger for many real life days and two game phases now. Three if you count night and day as separate phases. I geuss I missed it on my review. I definitely missed it the first time around (or, possibly, noted it at the time, but have since forgotten about it). I don't have a eidetic memory; I can't recall every case that every player has made about every other player. So sometimes I ask people to state their case, even when they have already explained it previously. And since you didn't actually vote for Ginger on Day 1, instead placing votes at random for I'm guessing I thought you didn't have particularly strong suspicions, or you would have actually, you know, acted upon them. I edited out the shouting. I explained at the time why I didn't want to lynch Ginger, which was that I was going to attempt to use my power on Ginger so you wouldn't mislynch her. Now I can't use that power and as such you must risk a mislynch to win the game. All of this was explained at the time, and then again today. If I suspect someone isn't reading the game, particularly things I've stated, I am not sure why I need to restate things I've already restated repeatedly. It is a waste of my typing at that point, and I already have a rather lot of things to type. If you want me to restate something, that's fine. But if you won't read the current day's information, then I get a bit miffed.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 5, 2012 15:21:07 GMT -5
If he tags a Hostile Third Party or a Scum, that's bad, because Town now has one less method of eliminating them. I can't tell if you're distorting or deliberately misreading -- pizza has explicitly said that his power only prevents Town-on-Town action. So if he tags a Hostile Third Party or a Scum, the vig can shoot freely and the kill will go through. If I'm understanding him correctly, his intent was to tag Ginger and then ask the vig to shoot at her toNight. If she's Town, great. If she's not Town, buh-bye. Unless, of course, a protective power got in the way, or someone blocked him, or whatever. So, you know, yes. Not the best planning. But then, I think the timing of all the claims has been questionable at best, frankly.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 5, 2012 15:23:45 GMT -5
If you know it wasn't Mr Green, because you have the Mr Green card, you don't necessarily accuse Mr Green. Sometimes you do to throw off your opponent, but you don't under any circumstances LYNCH Mr Green. Unless you're Sherlock in the BBC series, in which case you attempt to lynch Mr Boddy.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Oct 5, 2012 15:25:51 GMT -5
I don't need the vigilante hitting our backup recruiter, for example.
I would prefer the vigilante only hit folks I've tagged, to prevent town on friendly deaths.
However, that's all moot because there's not enough protections to go around and one role clearly outranks me in terms of priorities, by a mile.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 5, 2012 15:29:25 GMT -5
The timing was perfect. I am already outed as a starting townie role, and I can be used to deduce certain things about the game setup. I am already a prime murder target for the scums. I already know that the doctor, whoever is remaining, that being the Merc most likely, cannot and should not defend me tonight. I can also be roleblocked at will. Do you prefer to wait until I die to claim? I can't reveal this stuff when I'm dead, and there's no reason to believe I will ever be able to tag anyone successfully ever again, and there's no reason to believe I survive to the next day or the day after at the most. Who outed you as a Townie? You claim to be a Townie. That's not the same thing. And I don't see how your power is all that damaging to the Scum. You can't directly (or even indirectly) harm them. All you can do is prevent a Vig misfire. Heck, you can even potentially benefit them if you tag one of them, thus protecting them from a Vig kill. Scum want to kill Detectives (who can out them), Doctors (who can foil them), and other Killers (who can kill them). You are none of those. And with more than a dozen Third Party roles out there, there are probably several targets that they'd rather kill than someone who just might accidentally protect them. Two people died last Night. Now, it's possible that the Scum were responsible for both. But it's possible that there's a non-Scum killer out there (perhaps more than one considering the manner of peerker's Night 1 death). I'd think the Scum are probably looking for them more than trying to kill you. You can be roleblocked at will. Yes. So what? You say that like it makes you special. All of us can be 'roleblocked at will'. That doesn't mean that any one of us will be though...unless there's a particular reason to be repeatedly blocked. And I don't see what reason anyone would have had for repeatedly blocking you before your claim. For that matter, I'm not sure what reason anyone would have for repeatedly blocking you now. Why would Scum not want you to continue to act? What's the worst you can do to them? What's the best you can do for them?
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 5, 2012 15:31:15 GMT -5
Heck, you can even potentially benefit them if you tag one of them, thus protecting them from a Vig kill. As both Inner and I (and pizza) have pointed out, this is NOT TRUE. Please stop arguing as if it were.
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 5, 2012 15:34:33 GMT -5
I guess I'm as dense as KidV. what is it about Colby that we're missing? Colby and pizzaguy are insinuating that colby's night action is to target a player and change their wincon from 3rd party to town. and i find this hard to swallow. i know if i flipped to town, because of my wincon and powers, no other team would have a farking chance.
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