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Post by peekercpa on Nov 13, 2012 8:40:24 GMT -5
It depends...how often do you brush your teeth? i soak them in efferdent every night.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 13, 2012 11:25:51 GMT -5
I still want to know why you were talking about knives to me. It's a saying, meeko. "Put those knives away" = "calm down". Neither pizza nor I had any idea you were looking for your knives.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 13, 2012 11:46:36 GMT -5
I enjoyed following this game. I had to skim, but kept up with most of it.
The answer to Pizza's question and general "why does Town keep lynching claimed third-party" is that Town can't know that a Third Party claim is truthful. In Pizza's case, I think his perspective is shaded by the fact that he had access to additional information, namely a non-volitile source of checking third party claims. Without such guarantees and faith in the accuracy of those guarantees, Town is much less inclined to believe a claim of Third Party. While the preference would be for lynching scum, lynching Third Party is significantly better than lynching Town.
Mason investigator with private communication was probably a bit overpowered. Town's win hinged on Sister Coyote's longevity. Had she died early, Town would have been screwed.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 13, 2012 12:10:25 GMT -5
The answer to Pizza's question and general "why does Town keep lynching claimed third-party" is that Town can't know that a Third Party claim is truthful. It's impossible to verify any player's claims. Yes, town have an incentive to tell the truth, but there's no requirement that they do. Players need to judge claims on their merits, because there can be no certainty. I think this can be most clearly seen by looking at a third-party's claim. If they had lied and claimed to be town, should players be more accepting of the claim? I'd say no. It's ridiculous to be more credulous of a claim simply because the player claimed to be town alignment. As for lynching a third-party instead of a townie, well that's obvious. But that's because players should never be lynching someone they think is town. Lynching someone they think is scum is much better than lynching someone they think is third party. Even if they end up lynching town instead.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 13, 2012 12:22:42 GMT -5
Mason investigator with private communication was probably a bit overpowered. Town's win hinged on Sister Coyote's longevity. Had she died early, Town would have been screwed. Not really. Had I died while Pizza was still alive, he would have inherited my power, just as I inherited his. However, we could only use one or the other.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 13, 2012 14:00:54 GMT -5
Mason investigator with private communication was probably a bit overpowered. Town's win hinged on Sister Coyote's longevity. Had she died early, Town would have been screwed. Overpowered for a regular game? Maybe. Overpowered for this game? I don't really think so. Essentially the two masons in this game were a two-person Witch group a la conspiracy, where as long as they were both alive they had multiple powers, but once they lost one they had to choose one or the other. Considering how few Town there were to start with, I don't think it was that bad a set-up.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 13, 2012 14:55:39 GMT -5
As for lynching a third-party instead of a townie, well that's obvious. But that's because players should never be lynching someone they think is town. Lynching someone they think is scum is much better than lynching someone they think is third party. Even if they end up lynching town instead. The flow of the river is such that once a Third Party is there staring you in the face, only an outed scum will get the Town to look at someone else. I agree, that as the game is now, a true win-stealer is almost silly to claim Third Party. However, a shift in tactics where Town accept (unpressured) Third Party claims, that tactic would be short lived as a winstealer is likely to exploit that loophole soon enough. I thought we had a PFK win recently due to this. Am I remembering correctly?
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 13, 2012 15:07:55 GMT -5
Not really. Had I died while Pizza was still alive, he would have inherited my power, just as I inherited his. However, we could only use one or the other. Wow, even less volatile than I thought. I guess I'm trying to figure out how is it that SC and Pizza survived as long as they did. Was it the set-up or bizarre play by anti-Town factions? The fact that SC survived to endgame shows something 'not quite right.' While I get that the setup needed something for Town since there were so few of them, the mechanic was extremely anti-Scum. Scum essentially did not have very many places to hide. Though, there was an investigated godfather, which should have helped scum immensely. How that panned out was bad luck for scum. Though I do think that the whole Meeko didn't die thing was also very anti-scum. I think, on the whole, there were too many anti-scum night actors to the point where scum couldn't really do much of anything. I suspect this was a very frustrating game for scum. I see Pollux's point about how few town there were, and that makes sense, for Town. I just think that the Scum side were put in a very bad situation. In total fairness, SC's power helped scum too in that it exposed win stealers. I also find Conspiracy Witches to be overpowered so there is that too.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 13, 2012 15:56:08 GMT -5
As for lynching a third-party instead of a townie, well that's obvious. But that's because players should never be lynching someone they think is town. Lynching someone they think is scum is much better than lynching someone they think is third party. Even if they end up lynching town instead. The flow of the river is such that once a Third Party is there staring you in the face, only an outed scum will get the Town to look at someone else. That's simply poor play. I agree, that as the game is now, a true win-stealer is almost silly to claim Third Party. However, a shift in tactics where Town accept (unpressured) Third Party claims, that tactic would be short lived as a winstealer is likely to exploit that loophole soon enough. It's not a loophole to provisionally accept all claims until further evidence has been generated--it's good game play. A claim, by itself, with neither supporting nor falsifying evidence, is not a good basis for a lynch. (And it's not a good basis for not lynching someone, as well.) I thought we had a PFK win recently due to this. Am I remembering correctly? I don't know. I'd be interested in finding out.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 13, 2012 16:21:52 GMT -5
It's not a loophole to provisionally accept all claims until further evidence has been generated--it's good game play. A claim, by itself, with neither supporting nor falsifying evidence, is not a good basis for a lynch. (And it's not a good basis for not lynching someone, as well.) Oh, I agree. But the fact of the matter is in the absence of something shinier, the claimed third party has just hung a glorious sign screaming LYNCH ME. Finding someone else, and AGREEING on someone else is extremely difficult to do. Do you try and string up an unknown? What if you force a mason claim? A Cop claim? Those outcomes are demonstrably worse than simply killing a 'measly' third party. The benefits of keeping a third party around just aren't that great.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 13, 2012 16:26:06 GMT -5
Today at 12:55pm, sachertorte wrote:<table cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" class="quote" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="100%"> I thought we had a PFK win recently due to this. Am I remembering correctly?</td></tr></tbody></table> I don't know. I'd be interested in finding out. The only recent PFK win I know of was Seuss mafia, and I don't recall there being any claim from mlerose.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 13, 2012 17:21:53 GMT -5
Wow, even less volatile than I thought. I guess I'm trying to figure out how is it that SC and Pizza survived as long as they did. Was it the set-up or bizarre play by anti-Town factions? The fact that SC survived to endgame shows something 'not quite right.' While I get that the setup needed something for Town since there were so few of them, the mechanic was extremely anti-Scum. Scum essentially did not have very many places to hide. Though, there was an investigated godfather, which should have helped scum immensely. How that panned out was bad luck for scum. Though I do think that the whole Meeko didn't die thing was also very anti-scum. I think, on the whole, there were too many anti-scum night actors to the point where scum couldn't really do much of anything. I suspect this was a very frustrating game for scum. I see Pollux's point about how few town there were, and that makes sense, for Town. I just think that the Scum side were put in a very bad situation. In total fairness, SC's power helped scum too in that it exposed win stealers. I also find Conspiracy Witches to be overpowered so there is that too. A lot of factors went the Town's way, and I think if things had swung just slightly differently the endgame for scum wouldn't have been as hopeless. Examples: On Night 1, Wombat protected askthepizzaguy and decided to become a Town Bodyguard the very first night. If he hadn't done that, Lightfoot would have killed askthepizzaguy on Night Two. On top of that, if he had chosen to protect KidV or a scum that night instead of pizzaguy, he would have died immediately adding to the body count. If Inner Stickler had targeted Meeko, Meeko would have went over to the scum and perhaps wouldn't have given the information up that led to the scum's house of cards falling in on itself. Similarly, if any of the third-party killers (KidV, Lightfoot, Rich Beckman, mahaloth, even a Mercenary kill) had directed a kill towards Meeko, he would have died immediately since his defense was only against a Town or Scum kill. The three roles the scum could recruit were an Alignment Cop (a second cop on top of the one they already had), a Tracker/Watcher, and a possible second roleblocker/doctor. Any of those three roles would be insanely great for the scum to have. The game was very swingy based on the power roles in play, I'll admit that. It just so happened a lot of the results of the decisions of the players swung in a pro-Town manner. I'll also say that the kills of KidV and Bill weren't the best choices on the scum's part on Nights Three and Four.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Nov 13, 2012 17:22:40 GMT -5
"You really should put the knives away for a bit and try cooperating with the townies around you instead of constant attack and defensiveness." Context: You are, in my opinion, a great mafia player. But, remember back in the early game. You were posting a LOT but no one was listening to your advice or taking you seriously. I advised you to tone it down, take some deep breaths, and focus your aggression on one target at a time. Whether you realized it or not, after you did calm down, and went away for a bit, when you came back and started engaging folks in a non-extremelyparanoid fashion, people began to engage with you again. And then you went on to become a huge part of the town win, which I predicted someone like you would do, simply by making that tweak. Listen, I went aggressive and talkative in this game, and rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way, some of them scum, some of them called me an arrogant idiot for it. That's fine. I also voted for several scumbags and early-nailed half of them. I also don't take this personally, it's just a game and I am aware my style can be grating. But, you'll also note that I offered a whole lot of benefit of the doubt and olive branches. I gave Pleonast benefit of the doubt. I gave it to you. I read a lot of folks as being townie or at least contributing to the game, and wanted to see how they responded to situations. Having a bunch of folks you mark down as townie and volunteering to work with them helps, because there's at least some people who will see you as an allied vote, whether they agree with your conclusions or not. I must have gotten under Inner's skin and vice-versa but I was also able to reverse course on both him, and Ginger, after certain events. Working with people even those you once strongly suspected is vital to town victory. My criticism of your early game style was that everyone was tuning you out and dismissing you because you were paranoid about everyone, talking too much without enough actual content or knowledge, and you had too many suspects, and nothing your suspects said changed your mind. When you toned it down, you became relevant again, and in spite of your admitted third party status, you were a useful ally to town. Just like Red Skeezix. That's all I really needed from you- the "knives" comment meant that whoever you spoke to was also someone you were going after with daggers. It's diplomatic suicide. Once you began to play with more focus on who to attack, and pointed your aggression in one specific direction, and chilled out a bit and let others talk, I stopped skimming your posts, I started reading them, and I began to work with you and assume you were on the level. Basically you interpreted the knives comment as having to do with your role; it didn't. It was just a coincidence. I am happy to see that you reversed course and went on to become a huge problem for the scum and a townie asset, and finally a townie. Before this game, I would have told you that I felt my best mafia game was Marathon. I think this game, as far as my play goes, bested marathon but at least a factor of three (obviously) granted the role you get does help, I just feel I've turned a corner here lately. I might have one more corner to go, but I'm getting there, you know?
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Post by Meeko on Nov 13, 2012 17:26:09 GMT -5
Wow, even less volatile than I thought. I guess I'm trying to figure out how is it that SC and Pizza survived as long as they did. Was it the set-up or bizarre play by anti-Town factions? The fact that SC survived to endgame shows something 'not quite right.' While I get that the setup needed something for Town since there were so few of them, the mechanic was extremely anti-Scum. Scum essentially did not have very many places to hide. Though, there was an investigated godfather, which should have helped scum immensely. How that panned out was bad luck for scum. Though I do think that the whole Meeko didn't die thing was also very anti-scum. I think, on the whole, there were too many anti-scum night actors to the point where scum couldn't really do much of anything. I suspect this was a very frustrating game for scum. I see Pollux's point about how few town there were, and that makes sense, for Town. I just think that the Scum side were put in a very bad situation. In total fairness, SC's power helped scum too in that it exposed win stealers. I also find Conspiracy Witches to be overpowered so there is that too. A lot of factors went the Town's way, and I think if things had swung just slightly differently the endgame for scum wouldn't have been as hopeless. Examples: On Night 1, Wombat protected askthepizzaguy and decided to become a Town Bodyguard the very first night. If he hadn't done that, Lightfoot would have killed askthepizzaguy on Night Two. On top of that, if he had chosen to protect KidV or a scum that night instead of pizzaguy, he would have died immediately adding to the body count. If Inner Stickler had targeted Meeko, Meeko would have went over to the scum and perhaps wouldn't have given the information up that led to the scum's house of cards falling in on itself. Similarly, if any of the third-party killers (KidV, Lightfoot, Rich Beckman, mahaloth, even a Mercenary kill) had directed a kill towards Meeko, he would have died immediately since his defense was only against a Town or Scum kill. The three roles the scum could recruit were an Alignment Cop (a second cop on top of the one they already had), a Tracker/Watcher, and a possible second roleblocker/doctor. Any of those three roles would be insanely great for the scum to have. The game was very swingy based on the power roles in play, I'll admit that. It just so happened a lot of the results of the decisions of the players swung in a pro-Town manner. I'll also say that the kills of KidV and Bill weren't the best choices on the scum's part on Nights Three and Four. If I had a scum recruitment offer, I probably would have taken it. I was pissed at the number of unsolicited town claims me had. At the time an offer could have been given to me, I would have taken it . But then, I re-read my pm..... I forgot the clause that I couldn't join the scum board...twice, if I had gone that way.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 13, 2012 17:28:54 GMT -5
I finally read the scum board. I'm really surprised I wasn't a target for so long.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 13, 2012 17:29:44 GMT -5
If I had a scum recruitment offer, I probably would have taken it. I was pissed at the number of unsolicited town claims me had. At the time an offer could have been given to me, I would have taken it . But then, I re-read my pm..... I forgot the clause that I couldn't join the scum board...twice, if I had gone that way. I'd like to clarify: you wouldn't have joined the scum board IF you were attacked by Town. If the scum had outright chosen you for recruitment themselves, you would have joined them.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Nov 13, 2012 17:38:22 GMT -5
Though I do think that the whole Meeko didn't die thing was also very anti-scum. I think, on the whole, there were too many anti-scum night actors to the point where scum couldn't really do much of anything. I suspect this was a very frustrating game for scum. My survival mechanic was only an option for as long as I was third party. The moment I joined town or scum it was removed, used or unused. It was a one shot. In hindsight, I think this was the right call by Pollux. I turned down my first recruitment because I talked out my options (I was not lying when I said I wrote 40 plus pm's to Pollux in this game.) and asked questions. IIRC, Pollux did not outright mention that I got neutered if I switched. I had to ask, and even at that, I was asking to confirm that I still had the power once I switched, I "knew" that I kept it, and I was just confirming that fact. Pollux's response surprised me. So yes, I lost powers when I switched to town. Just not my watch / track power. ;D Sinjin the went ahead and attacked me. Because I didn't take the offer to be town, I still had my survival power. Hence, with the power completely used up, I had no issue within being taken from me to switch over to town. I had my knives, and I would have won with my third party wincon if there were enough votes on Sinjin. (I would have not converted if I saw votes moving to Sinjin) I still don't get how all the votes for Lightfoot piled on that fast, that unreasoned. Do we not give reasons for votes any more? I just figured in each case I was given recruitment offer, I took the right choice. Scum board confirms that this was quite the omfg fest you think it was.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Nov 13, 2012 17:43:11 GMT -5
Dizzy care to comment on the moment I came back around I top and claimed that I was a watcher AND tracker ?
Sinjin care to comment on my posting the result pm and vote on you?
Scum board doesn't have these reactions that i saw.
Town what else could I have done to get you to vote Sinjin?
Because, I'm not sure I could have done anything else. And at the point you guys all went after a non winnable third party role. OVER scum, we have a huge problem.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Nov 13, 2012 17:44:36 GMT -5
If I had a scum recruitment offer, I probably would have taken it. I was pissed at the number of unsolicited town claims me had. At the time an offer could have been given to me, I would have taken it . But then, I re-read my pm..... I forgot the clause that I couldn't join the scum board...twice, if I had gone that way. I'd like to clarify: you wouldn't have joined the scum board IF you were attacked by Town. If the scum had outright chosen you for recruitment themselves, you would have joined them. I did not pick up on that. I thought it was if I became scum, it was scum in name only thought.
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Nov 13, 2012 17:53:26 GMT -5
Mmm. Glad that what few townies there were, performed mostly magnificently. SisterCoyote, you're the greatest mason partner a pizzaguy could ever ask for. Colby, while I rue the day you revealed your role (WHY? WHY? WHY?) I think you did your job well and the rest of the team stepped up to the plate to assist you, as directed. I think that was critical. Inner Stickler, your reveal was very helpful and your shots were fantastic. Glad we could help ya. A big WTF to the folks who let me get lynched over a scumbag, congrats on that. Sheesh. I need to remind myself that most of yall weren't town. Otherwise I'd say that's some epic poor play right there. I felt like outing myself was my best move all game, as I was more useful as a conduit for my hidden mason partner than as my actual role. I still firmly believe that the decision to go after Pleonast so early was bad, bad, bad. I don't know what folks were thinking there. Was seriously a fun game. I am glad that Parzival noticed that I had essentially outed my own mason partner in my list of cleared people, or narrowed it down. Way to be on your toes, my good man. But I'm still quite happy that, by whatever miracle of sweet magical science, SisterCoyote and Colby survived the game. That is some epic domination right thar. Not being able to rid the town of their mason and recruiter is basically a crushing victory for town over scum. Then again, almost every seriously important townie role also survived. That was huge. Well played team. My bad Ginger. Me claiming was a direct result of real life frustration, plus getting tired of being considered for the lynch those first couple of days. A stupid decision, but one that I think helped us in the end, because I would have died.. Even though I only recruited Pleonast.... Honestly, I don't see why I wasn't killed, though I am glad that I did draw the scum block like I was hoping for after my claim.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 13, 2012 18:07:05 GMT -5
Town what else could I have done to get you to vote Sinjin? Because, I'm not sure I could have done anything else. And at the point you guys all went after a non winnable third party role. OVER scum, we have a huge problem. Lightfoot was NOT non-winnable. Town had to eliminate all hostiles to win. Therefore, even though it was fairly obvious you had to be right about sinjin, Town still needed to lynch Lightfoot first.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Nov 13, 2012 22:06:31 GMT -5
Town what else could I have done to get you to vote Sinjin? Because, I'm not sure I could have done anything else. And at the point you guys all went after a non winnable third party role. OVER scum, we have a huge problem. Lightfoot was NOT non-winnable. Town had to eliminate all hostiles to win. Therefore, even though it was fairly obvious you had to be right about sinjin, Town still needed to lynch Lightfoot first. Scum by definition have an immediate NK. Not all hostiles had immediate kills. I don't get the reason behind killing Lightfoot first. I don't even begin to understand it.
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Post by lauriern on Nov 13, 2012 22:06:32 GMT -5
Town what else could I have done to get you to vote Sinjin? Because, I'm not sure I could have done anything else. And at the point you guys all went after a non winnable third party role. OVER scum, we have a huge problem. Lightfoot was NOT non-winnable. Town had to eliminate all hostiles to win. Therefore, even though it was fairly obvious you had to be right about sinjin, Town still needed to lynch Lightfoot first. Thank goodness someone understood exactly what I had been saying! I also knew that I still had my roleblocking ability and I blocked Sinjin Night 8 (although the game was over that night)
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Post by lauriern on Nov 13, 2012 22:08:55 GMT -5
Lightfoot was NOT non-winnable. Town had to eliminate all hostiles to win. Therefore, even though it was fairly obvious you had to be right about sinjin, Town still needed to lynch Lightfoot first. Scum by definition have an immediate NK. Not all hostiles had immediate kills. I don't get the reason behind killing Lightfoot first. I don't even begin to understand it. Meeko, The point is it didn't matter which one went first - they both had to go. I also knew I was going to block Sinjin that night.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 13, 2012 22:29:25 GMT -5
Well, it did matter in that we know if someone is scum, their wincon is going to be something on the order of parity with Town. So, for example, if we know sinjin is scum, while she does have a night kill and that should be accounted for, as long as we know there are more town than scum, we're safe. Lightfoot admitted that she was hostile and third party. We had no idea what her wincon could be. Sure, she posted a role pm, but what if she had subtracted one from each of the totals and would win one person sooner than her posted PM specified. Or perhaps she made that up out of whole cloth and she had a specific action she needed to complete or something else. We couldn't trust her at all because third parties are necessarily outside the wincon system of Town V Scum. She had to go first because we knew that with Lightfoot dead, sinjin still hadn't met the scum wincon. We had no idea what would happen if we killed sinjin first. If she were the last scum, perhaps it would trigger an endgame evaluation and lightfoot could have stolen the win depending on her wincon. We couldn't know that the game would continue for another Day or even Night.
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Post by LightFoot on Nov 13, 2012 22:55:11 GMT -5
Lightfoot was NOT non-winnable. Town had to eliminate all hostiles to win. Therefore, even though it was fairly obvious you had to be right about sinjin, Town still needed to lynch Lightfoot first. Scum by definition have an immediate NK. Not all hostiles had immediate kills. I don't get the reason behind killing Lightfoot first. I don't even begin to understand it. Thanks you there were enough players left that I could not win that Day or Night even. I tried to explain but I was not believed
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Post by LightFoot on Nov 13, 2012 22:58:52 GMT -5
Well, it did matter in that we know if someone is scum, their wincon is going to be something on the order of parity with Town. So, for example, if we know sinjin is scum, while she does have a night kill and that should be accounted for, as long as we know there are more town than scum, we're safe. Lightfoot admitted that she was hostile and third party. We had no idea what her wincon could be. Sure, she posted a role pm, but what if she had subtracted one from each of the totals and would win one person sooner than her posted PM specified. Or perhaps she made that up out of whole cloth and she had a specific action she needed to complete or something else. We couldn't trust her at all because third parties are necessarily outside the wincon system of Town V Scum. She had to go first because we knew that with Lightfoot dead, sinjin still hadn't met the scum wincon. We had no idea what would happen if we killed sinjin first. If she were the last scum, perhaps it would trigger an endgame evaluation and lightfoot could have stolen the win depending on her wincon. We couldn't know that the game would continue for another Day or even Night. Although part of this makes sense- with a hostile 3P alive Scum would not have their win-con- and one less Scum would improve Towns chances ( unless I read things wrong- given all the things I needed to do in game didn't my win con make sense? it's a moot point now though
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Post by Inner Stickler on Nov 13, 2012 23:45:00 GMT -5
It's not a matter of making sense. A lot of things make sense that are totally wrong. It's a matter of trust.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Nov 14, 2012 5:26:07 GMT -5
by the way, i actually lied twice about my powers. when i claimed i said i would lose my powers when i became Town. i said this so i could investigate again without being NKd. however when i reported my investigation, i didn't say that it was my last one and that i was truly vanilla. i did this in hopes of drawing the scum kill. obviously that didn't work because sinjin felt she was safe even if investigated. fortunately it led her to attempt to kill Meeko instead. that was what clinched the game.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Nov 14, 2012 9:59:09 GMT -5
by the way, i actually lied twice about my powers. when i claimed i said i would lose my powers when i became Town. i said this so i could investigate again without being NKd. however when i reported my investigation, i didn't say that it was my last one and that i was truly vanilla. i did this in hopes of drawing the scum kill. obviously that didn't work because sinjin felt she was safe even if investigated. fortunately it led her to attempt to kill Meeko instead. that was what clinched the game. You had no way of knowing I had a one off survive a NK. That is what clinched. Along with me watching my self.
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