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Post by wombat99 on Feb 21, 2013 21:30:55 GMT -5
Vote: Silver Jan
I think she's afraid of tripping up so she was reluctant to clearly answer questions put to her.
Vote: Storyteller
He created a vote analysis Yesterday to appear to be hunting Devils, but started with faulty/incomplete assumptions and didn't respond when questioned about them. I think he was just looking to put down a couple of votes and to appear helpful and Townie.
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Post by wombat99 on Feb 21, 2013 21:33:20 GMT -5
Given the possibility of recruitment, I'm going to add one more vote here: Vote: Chucara.You're voting for Chucara, who you previously insisted was non-Devil, on the off-chance he's been recruited? Something's up here. Explain this further, please?
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Post by Mahaloth on Feb 21, 2013 21:37:39 GMT -5
Mahaloth, is there any way that you or anybody else can confirm a role action that you've taken? I see your question, but I really can't answer it properly. I'm not trying to be "oooh, mysterious!" but I'm choosing not to share for a reason related to the role.
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Post by mistervisceral on Feb 21, 2013 21:51:26 GMT -5
1) Are you certain you started this game without a sin? 2) Could the devils have known about this? I'm curious about how HM wouldn't know that the Christian PM explicitly states how many PMs you have. Especially when someone else has slipped up regarding something similar. If it's Holy vs Wombat in counterclaim world, I'd be on the side of vote Holey Moley!1) That one little slip was good enough for me to feel suspicious of Holy, and 2) I feel like Wombat's logical and tactical shortcomings have been indicative of towny townness.
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Post by texcat on Feb 21, 2013 21:56:15 GMT -5
Wombat, did you also get results on me last Night?
misterV, please explain how you know that slaking is not related to recruiting.
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Post by mistervisceral on Feb 21, 2013 22:31:26 GMT -5
misterV, please explain how you know that slaking is not related to recruiting. No.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 21, 2013 22:44:15 GMT -5
1) Are you certain you started this game without a sin? 2) Could the devils have known about this? I'm curious about how HM wouldn't know that the Christian PM explicitly states how many PMs you have. Especially when someone else has slipped up regarding something similar.. Wrong way around, Visceral. I didn't "slip". I was wondering if Colby may have. I was concerned with BillMC as well. Until now we haven't had any other sinless Christian claims. If BillMC, as a devil, already knew about Colby's role, he could contradict Idle's statements on Day one with impunity, throwing suspicion on Idle in the process, and people would say exactly what I have said - Bill's probably not a devil because he knows too much about Christian roles. Colby's claim threw doubt on my reasons for not suspecting BillMC. Wombat - again, I'm certain that Chucara STARTED as a Christian. Since then, however, people have been suspicious of him, and I don't feel he's given me enough to be confident that he still is one. On further reflection, though, a full claim from Chucara would be useless - he could just use his original one if he'd been recruited - so with that in mind, Unvote: Chucara. Would still like to hear more from him.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 21, 2013 22:53:00 GMT -5
1) Are you certain you started this game without a sin? 2) Could the devils have known about this? If it's Holy vs Wombat in counterclaim world, I'd be on the side of vote Holey Moley!Explain this please? Reservations about her wincon aside, I've not voted for Wombat and I don't think she's a devil.
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Hockey Monkey!
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Feb 21, 2013 22:59:47 GMT -5
I haven't had time to really analyze what's been revealed today so I am going to:
Vote: storyteller
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 21, 2013 23:07:37 GMT -5
OK...I was really, really busy for a couple weeks, and barely had time to keep up with the game. I was pretty much lost, but that sort of thing happens from time to time.
Then my schedule cleared, and I was able to get caught up, and by today I felt like I really had a pretty good handle on things.
Then I left work this afternoon, had a function to attend, and I've come back 4 hours later and I have no freaking clue what's going on again! What is with you people?!?
grumblegrumblegrumble...
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 21, 2013 23:12:13 GMT -5
Can someone please explain to me why we must make a choice between wombat99 and Holy Moley?
From where I sit, one of them has claimed Christian, and the other has claimed Heretic. One claimed that Chucara is not a Devil (later clarified to say that Chucara was not a Devil at the beginning of the game), and the other has claimed that Suburban is a Christian.
Did I miss a claim or three? Because I don't see any reason that one of them must be lying...
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 21, 2013 23:17:47 GMT -5
misterV, please explain how you know that slaking is not related to recruiting. No. Thanks. You've been a big help. You did say The lust-slaking (lol Slaking) has nothing to do with recruitment. I can say that with 100% certainty. ,didn't you? (I thought so.) Unless you (or one of the other Masons) is the one doing the slaking, I don't know how you could possibly know that. Especially if, as dizzymrslizzy has told us, we have more than one slaker. How can you be so certain? And if you are that certain, how about throwing the rest of us a bone?
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 21, 2013 23:29:03 GMT -5
I haven't had time to really analyze what's been revealed today so I am going to: Vote: storyteller I'm sure it must be posts like these that has wombat pulling his hair out regarding you Masons...and I can't say I really blame him. Do you have any particular reason for voting storyteller? I see that your fellow Masons haven't joined you, so it seems to be an individual decision. Is there a case here somewhere, or did story's name just come up in your alphabet soup this evening?
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Post by wombat99 on Feb 21, 2013 23:42:42 GMT -5
2) I feel like Wombat's logical and tactical shortcomings have been indicative of towny townness. I'm totally stealing this for my sig line.
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Post by wombat99 on Feb 21, 2013 23:48:27 GMT -5
Wombat, did you also get results on me last Night? I don't see how any investigation result could be more conclusive than being cleared by Ryjae's cleansing; I don't understand why you have any votes, frankly. I would think if RyJae's power could be influenced by a godfather type Devil, she would have some inkling of that. It seems pretty unlikely.
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Post by Colby11 on Feb 21, 2013 23:55:10 GMT -5
I feel like I have possibly confused Holy Moley, so I will explain in detail.
I do have a Cardinal Sin, but I did not start the game with a sin on me (per the original PM that I received via the mod)
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Post by Colby11 on Feb 21, 2013 23:56:45 GMT -5
I also feel that Chucara has been recruited. In the very first post, he brings up a third party killer having performed a NK. Not scum.
It felt like scum Chucara was attempting to be town still
Vote: Vote Chucara
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Post by wombat99 on Feb 22, 2013 0:09:06 GMT -5
Moley, when do you think Chucara was recruited, and what makes you think he in particular was recruited? What happened to change your mind? You were so very sure he wasn't a Devil.
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Post by BillMc on Feb 22, 2013 3:54:30 GMT -5
The reason I was so accepting of non-Christian factions is because 1) I'd already marked Wombat and Lightfoot as "probably not devil", and 2) my role PM says that I have to beat the devils (and nobody else). How many more times do I have to go into this? A lynch of a third-party in this game is a mislynch. Therefore, even if you were 100% certain I was a third-party myself (in which case you'd be wrong), you shouldn't be voting me. That is a HUGE assumption to make - the rules clearly state that victory conditions are not entirely known. You will not change teams without your consent. Victory conditions may not be entirely known.. You seem to have concluded that it is a simple "everyone vs thedevils" games - yet there are clearly at least three non-devil factions, the dead are still participating in the game - how and to what extent we don't know.
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Post by BillMc on Feb 22, 2013 3:59:56 GMT -5
I don't see how any investigation result could be more conclusive than being cleared by Ryjae's cleansing; I don't understand why you have any votes, frankly. I would think if RyJae's power could be influenced by a godfather type Devil, she would have some inkling of that. It seems pretty unlikely. Why do you think Ryjae would know this? The whole point of a godfather role is that it investigates as town
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Post by guiri on Feb 22, 2013 4:12:07 GMT -5
a Christian and I have pretty wide-eyed acceptance of the pagan and heretic folks. I do believe moley and to be honest, I now suspect you because of this vote. Don't you remember you expressed some level of doubt about them? Not exactly wide-eyed acceptance: My gut reaction was that Pagans are third party, but I'm not so sure. I do see that they could be a town ally, but what is the point of creating another category if they have the same wincon? I don't get it. So basically we have a Guiri vs Holy counterclaim.... I'm not voting Moley due to a counterclaim - we know that Pollux was a Christian Investigator so there are at least two, if not more Christian Investigators in the game. The reason I'm voting Moley is his attitude to the claimed non-towns: he proposed the concept of players of the same alignment attempting to find each other, was quick to portray them as non-threatening third parties, and defended wombat's bat-signalling. The reason I was so accepting of non-Christian factions is because 1) I'd already marked Wombat and Lightfoot as "probably not devil", and 2) my role PM says that I have to beat the devils (and nobody else). How many more times do I have to go into this? A lynch of a third-party in this game is a mislynch. Therefore, even if you were 100% certain I was a third-party myself (in which case you'd be wrong), you shouldn't be voting me. But that's exactly why I didn't vote you before, I fully expected you to come along and claim pagan or heretic as that would explain your attitude to them. You've seen that isn't a lynch mob after their non-town claimants and I think people are generally taking a "wait and see" approach so there's no reason for you to lie about your alignment. So when you claimed town, I heard alarm bells and suspect you are a devil. He created a vote analysis Yesterday to appear to be hunting Devils, but started with faulty/incomplete assumptions and didn't respond when questioned about them. I think he was just looking to put down a couple of votes and to appear helpful and Townie. I support this, between his D2 filibuster and promise to analyze the lightfoot voters only and then D3 analysis of Bill voters only, he's barely playing the game. If it's Holy vs Wombat in counterclaim world, I'd be on the side of vote Holey Moley! Why it is Holy vs Wombat? Why are you voting Moley if you are on his side?
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Chucara
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Post by Chucara on Feb 22, 2013 4:51:08 GMT -5
I also feel that Chucara has been recruited. In the very first post, he brings up a third party killer having performed a NK. Not scum. It felt like scum Chucara was attempting to be town still Vote: Vote Chucara [/color][/quote] I did what now? Where did I suggest a third party killed anyone? That is an outright fabrication.. Are you talking about this post: Hm.. Do we have a vig who thinks Pagans are not Town friendly? If so, I really don't think you should target them. Alternatively, scum did the normal NK thing. I don't actually believe we have hostile third parties. HoleyWhy on Gods green earth would you think I was recruited? We are not even sure recruiting is a thing in this game? Seems to me time is better spent hunting scum, and right now I think we are setting ourselves up to yet another mislynch but looking at people who are already more or less confirmed. Scum should struggle to narrow that pool, not town. I think Tomorrow is a good time for a mass claim, but I don't want to do it right before the Night. As such, I won't claim unless my hand is forced. Also, if you think I've been recruited, my claiming won't make any difference as you said yourself. I'd already have a town PM.
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Post by JustBeingGinger on Feb 22, 2013 6:33:48 GMT -5
I also feel that Chucara has been recruited. In the very first post, he brings up a third party killer having performed a NK. Not scum. It felt like scum Chucara was attempting to be town still Vote: Vote Chucara [/color][/quote] I did what now? Where did I suggest a third party killed anyone? That is an outright fabrication.. Are you talking about this post: Hm.. Do we have a vig who thinks Pagans are not Town friendly? If so, I really don't think you should target them. Alternatively, scum did the normal NK thing. I don't actually believe we have hostile third parties. HoleyWhy on Gods green earth would you think I was recruited? We are not even sure recruiting is a thing in this game? Seems to me time is better spent hunting scum, and right now I think we are setting ourselves up to yet another mislynch but looking at people who are already more or less confirmed. Scum should struggle to narrow that pool, not town. I think Tomorrow is a good time for a mass claim, but I don't want to do it right before the Night. As such, I won't claim unless my hand is forced. Also, if you think I've been recruited, my claiming won't make any difference as you said yourself. I'd already have a town PM.[/quote] If you read my PM/Claim you would be pretty sure that recruitment is a STRONG possibility and for you to just dismiss it like you have, makes me suspicious.
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Post by Chucara on Feb 22, 2013 7:33:17 GMT -5
Ginger: It is the series of uncertainties that puzzles me. 1. Whether or not recruitment is a part of this game. The mod has not directly confirmed this is the case, but given your PM - it is indeed likely. 2. Of all the people, why does he think me in particular was the target of the recruitment. I don't mind getting lynched if it will help, but I don't see how it can. My point is I don't see why we are focusing on recruitment so much. Now, based on the assumption that there are 4 scum (horsemen), there are at least three players out there who started out the game as scum. I think we should find those instead of helping out scum by decreasing our pool of confirmed. Any speculations in regards to who start out Town but was converted will remain guesses. Unless you think my behaviour has changed during the game of course, in which case I don't see a problem with you voting me. You're wrong, but no have no way of knowing
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 22, 2013 7:49:02 GMT -5
Thanks. You've been a big help. You did say The lust-slaking (lol Slaking) has nothing to do with recruitment. I can say that with 100% certainty. ,didn't you? (I thought so.) Unless you (or one of the other Masons) is the one doing the slaking, I don't know how you could possibly know that. Especially if, as dizzymrslizzy has told us, we have more than one slaker. How can you be so certain? And if you are that certain, how about throwing the rest of us a bone? The reason I haven't asked about this is because "Lust slaking" sounds awfully like the action of a Cardinal Sin to me. "Lust" being one of the cardinal sins. If MisterVisceral, a confirmed Christian according to HockeyMonkey, is actually in posession of information regarding this, the absolute last thing he should do is say what it is.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 22, 2013 8:22:25 GMT -5
HoleyWhy on Gods green earth would you think I was recruited? We are not even sure recruiting is a thing in this game? Well four people have all come out of the woodwork, three days too late in my opinion (although I can understand why the masons didn't say something - the fact that Ginger had a perfect opportunity to add to Idle's statements, but didn't do so, irks me to this day. Since she was the first one to claim recruitment-blocking powers, I don't think it's scummy as much as it has denied me information that I specifically could have used to help the town with my role) - to confirm that their Christian powers all have defences against recruitment. I would say that is a pretty decent confirmation. As for WHY, I did kinda put a target on your back with my "handshake" on day one. As I see it, the obvious recruitment targets would be Idle, BillMC, Guiri, and yourself. Idle was confirmed as Christian on Night One, Guiri was visited by Ginger that same night (and according to her, her power prevents recruitments from occurring), and BillMC has gone from being virtually cleared in my mind to being a strong suspect, especially after Colby's claim of being a sinless Christian. That leaves yourself, and honestly I don't feel as though either you or Bill has given me much to work with in terms of determining alignment. If we're lucky, a devil recruiter visited a mason or Guiri. I can see HockeyMonkey being a target also (particularly after he was the first to vote Patricia) but the other two masons, who were both under suspicion on Day One? Doubt it. For the record, all this latent uncertainty came up because HockeyMonkey said that she'd "checked" MisterVisceral and DizzyMrsLizzy and that both were, and still are, Christians. I took that to mean that she had some knowledge that meant alignment-changing recruitments couldn't happen, and therefore you couldn't have been recruited yourself. When she admitted that she'd lied to protect the masons, things suddenly looked a lot different.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 22, 2013 8:24:15 GMT -5
I'll follow your lead: I'm a Christian Investigator. 21. HolyMoley - Christian investigator.*** ***Well at least I know what I am! Wow! What are the odds of that? I've provided three results so far, and they're of a nature that nobody else has claimed yet. Is there anything you can tell us that could confirm your claim?
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Post by JustBeingGinger on Feb 22, 2013 8:37:03 GMT -5
Ginger: It is the series of uncertainties that puzzles me. 1. Whether or not recruitment is a part of this game. The mod has not directly confirmed this is the case, but given your PM - it is indeed likely. 2. Of all the people, why does he think me in particular was the target of the recruitment. I don't mind getting lynched if it will help, but I don't see how it can. My point is I don't see why we are focusing on recruitment so much. Now, based on the assumption that there are 4 scum (horsemen), there are at least three players out there who started out the game as scum. I think we should find those instead of helping out scum by decreasing our pool of confirmed. Any speculations in regards to who start out Town but was converted will remain guesses. Unless you think my behaviour has changed during the game of course, in which case I don't see a problem with you voting me. You're wrong, but no have no way of knowing See I disagree, I think recruitment is a VERY important subject. I don't have allot of info on it, but the fact that Scum can add town or 3rd party players to their gang is game changing and someone who was once maybe confirmed or soft confirmed can change and be a game stealer. In a example John Doe claimed to be cop and gave us one scum, then got recruited to be scum. We as town trust and believe in John Doe cause after all he got us a scum, now should not be trusted and will fly under the radar... To be honest I had you on my scummy list from Day 1, so to say that your game play has changed to now be scummy, would be a false statement for me since I thought it was always scummy. I think we all agree that we need to scum hunt, that is the objective of town people in all mafia games, but how does really one do that? It is not like town know who scum are and they have targets on them so that on a sunny day we can get our rifles and go a huntin... Everyone has their own way of playing and I dislike it when people state that we need to scum hunt... I get a "no duh" kind of a attitude... I honestly don't know who to vote for, I don't like the fact that Storyteller has been so quiet in this game, but I also think he is smart enough to know that scum have to be active in a game to appear townie and that if you don't participate that can get you votes. It is also the fact that everyone is coming up Christian that has me baffled and don't know who to vote for. Somewhere in the group there is a wolf in sheeps clothing...
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Post by JustBeingGinger on Feb 22, 2013 8:47:14 GMT -5
HoleyWhy on Gods green earth would you think I was recruited? We are not even sure recruiting is a thing in this game? Well four people have all come out of the woodwork, three days too late in my opinion (although I can understand why the masons didn't say something - the fact that Ginger had a perfect opportunity to add to Idle's statements, but didn't do so, irks me to this day. Since she was the first one to claim recruitment-blocking powers, I don't think it's scummy as much as it has denied me information that I specifically could have used to help the town with my role) - to confirm that their Christian powers all have defences against recruitment. I would say that is a pretty decent confirmation. As for WHY, I did kinda put a target on your back with my "handshake" on day one. As I see it, the obvious recruitment targets would be Idle, BillMC, Guiri, and yourself. Idle was confirmed as Christian on Night One, Guiri was visited by Ginger that same night (and according to her, her power prevents recruitments from occurring), and BillMC has gone from being virtually cleared in my mind to being a strong suspect, especially after Colby's claim of being a sinless Christian. That leaves yourself, and honestly I don't feel as though either you or Bill has given me much to work with in terms of determining alignment. If we're lucky, a devil recruiter visited a mason or Guiri. I can see HockeyMonkey being a target also (particularly after he was the first to vote Patricia) but the other two masons, who were both under suspicion on Day One? Doubt it. For the record, all this latent uncertainty came up because HockeyMonkey said that she'd "checked" MisterVisceral and DizzyMrsLizzy and that both were, and still are, Christians. I took that to mean that she had some knowledge that meant alignment-changing recruitments couldn't happen, and therefore you couldn't have been recruited yourself. When she admitted that she'd lied to protect the masons, things suddenly looked a lot different. Can you help me out here. What statements could I have helped Idle with? I am truly wondering, at the start of the game I was going through my personal issues so my head was clouded to say the least and I really did not track 100% the Idle and Bill show. The only reason I even claimed was because I was a lynch candidate, otherwise, my mouth would of remained shut. Once you claim you put a target on your back in this game (meaning mafia, because in this one game, claims are all over the place). Seeing that I had or have no knowledge of everyone's roles in this game, how do I know how I can help or hinder...
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 22, 2013 8:54:10 GMT -5
I'm not voting Moley due to a counterclaim - we know that Pollux was a Christian Investigator so there are at least two, if not more Christian Investigators in the game. The reason I'm voting Moley is his attitude to the claimed non-towns: he proposed the concept of players of the same alignment attempting to find each other, was quick to portray them as non-threatening third parties, and defended wombat's bat-signalling. But that's exactly why I didn't vote you before, I fully expected you to come along and claim pagan or heretic as that would explain your attitude to them. You've seen that isn't a lynch mob after their non-town claimants and I think people are generally taking a "wait and see" approach so there's no reason for you to lie about your alignment. So when you claimed town, I heard alarm bells and suspect you are a devil. First off, the first third-party to claim turned up dead the next day, and I'd say there's at least 50% likelihood that her killer was a Christian. So good luck getting any other lurking third-parties to claim. Second off, the role that I'm claiming (and the details of that role can absolutely be checked - I've said outright that there's only one killer in the game, for example; what happens if two then come forward or are lynched / killed and their roles revealed later on?) is unique, as far as claims go. Given its usefulness in tracking both killers and mechanics (eg, recruiters), I'd say that it's pretty town-sided. Do you think a devil would a) have that role, or b) reveal the results publicly, as I have done? Thirdly, even if the wincon for living Christians is incomplete, which I'm not ready to accept (we know that players continue to play this game after death, and thanks to Idle, we also know that Christians at least have a task that is not specified in my wincon at this time), what would happen if this occurred: - No third-parties claim their alignments, or are killed. - We get to day five or six, say, having hunted down most of the devils. - Pleonast then suddenly stops the game and declares that a third-party group, whose existence has never been confirmed in either our win condition or in gameplay, has won the game. I mean, this is the scenario that people were suggesting here with the "hostile third party" theory, isn't it? Or am I missing something here? That's pure gastard modding right there. I'm not willing to take seriously any theory that relies upon the mod failing to provide the town players with basic information that they need to know in order to win the game. I don't understand the attitude of those who do take this theory seriously, except to suggest that they're either 1) utterly misguided, or 2) devils trying to muddy the waters. And it frightens the hell out of me that we may possibly have a Christian killer out there who's targeting third-parties instead of devils. I'm glad that you brought up Pollux, though, because it seems to me that his role, my role and Silverjan's role cover a pretty varied spectrum of information that could be useful to the Christians. Pollux was confirmed Christian upon his death, and Jan and I have both provided results to confirm that our roles are what we say they are. That leaves you and Mahaloth. Mahaloth has said that he can't provide results because of the nature of his role. What's your reason for not doing so?
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