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Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 26, 2013 10:46:03 GMT -5
I prayed for Lightfoot last night and was told that she is in Heaven! Yeah US! So Pagans can enter Heaven. Interesting; I wouldn't have thought that would be the case.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 26, 2013 10:53:27 GMT -5
Yay for no deaths and I got results last Night. Suburban Plankton targeted Holy Moley and Guiri targeted Suburban Plankton. I can confirm the first half of this statement; I have no knowledge about the second half. Since guiri has now been seen visiting Solaris/Colby11 and myself, and we both survived the encounters, I'm not terribly worried about him at this point. Vote: Holy Moley For the same reasons as before. I don't like his pattern of voting, pretty much from Day 1 onward. And before anyone asks, I am not an Investigator of any sort; this vote is not based upon my action from last Night.
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Post by wombat99 on Feb 26, 2013 14:25:37 GMT -5
Since guiri has now been seen visiting Solaris/Colby11 and myself, and we both survived the encounters, I'm not terribly worried about him at this point. Why not? We could have a Devil investigator in the game who isn't a killer.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 14:46:18 GMT -5
Wow, a very quiet Night! Vote MoleyHEY! That's rude! To the utter shock of everybody... no killer powers were used last night. That's not quite as useless as it sounds by the way. It means that not only was nobody killed, but nobody tried to kill anybody else. Unless there is a regular scumkill that doesn't appear on my "powers" list and was somehow blocked by a protective role. I've been trying to work out the numbers for recruitment - kill - recruitment - kill powers. (In which case I've been freakishly unlucky - I've ended up having to check mechanics during the "kill" nights, and killers during the "recruitment" nights. Still doesn't explain the odd choices of kills on nights one and three though.) And wondering if Paranoia's role was to die, and therefore stop any devil powers from succeeding on night one. I hope that's the case. I'm not ready to jump on the Guiri bandwagon yet, but I want an explanation for this vote. Guiri, do you doubt that I'm a Heretic? Or do you think I'm worth voting for despite that you do believe I'm a Heretic?
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 14:58:44 GMT -5
Yay for no deaths and I got results last Night. Suburban Plankton targeted Holy Moley and Guiri targeted Suburban Plankton. I can confirm the first half of this statement; I have no knowledge about the second half. Since guiri has now been seen visiting Solaris/Colby11 and myself, and we both survived the encounters, I'm not terribly worried about him at this point. Vote: Holy Moley [/color] For the same reasons as before. I don't like his pattern of voting, pretty much from Day 1 onward. And before anyone asks, I am not an Investigator of any sort; this vote is not based upon my action from last Night. [/quote] I don't like the first bit of reasoning. Guiri has claimed to be an investigator. I don't see anything particularly unlikely about that, regardless of his alignment. Thank you for your vote - but it's unnecessary. If we're keeping score here, I had a strong inkling that you weren't a devil back on Day Two, long before anybody ever claimed to have investigated you. I was undecided before then. Would that change your mind?
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 15:06:34 GMT -5
In fact, come to think of it... Wombat clears Plankton, then [bGuiri[/b] investigates him the following night? That makes absolutely no sense. Even if Wombat is lying and Plankton is a Heretic, not a Christian, which I have no knowledge of (despite being a Heretic myself).
Ok, now I'm ready to jump on the Guiri wagon.
Vote: Guiri.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 15:07:07 GMT -5
Vote: Guiri. I hate these damn tags...
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 26, 2013 15:29:29 GMT -5
In fact, come to think of it... Wombat clears Plankton, then [bGuiri [/b] investigates him the following night? That makes absolutely no sense. Even if Wombat is lying and Plankton is a Heretic, not a Christian, which I have no knowledge of (despite being a Heretic myself). Ok, now I'm ready to jump on the Guiri wagon. Vote: Guiri.[/quote] Why does it make no sense? Suppose guiri is in fact a Christian Investigator. If he thinks that wombat was lying, wouldn't it have been a good idea to double-check his result? FTR, I'm not certain that guiri is Christian; I'm just fairly certain that he's not a killer in disguise. But I don't find him particularly Scummy at the moment, and I'm not overly impressed by any of the cases that are being brought against him so far Today.
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Post by guiri on Feb 26, 2013 15:38:54 GMT -5
I'm not ready to jump on the Guiri bandwagon yet, but I want an explanation for this vote. Guiri, do you doubt that I'm a Heretic? Or do you think I'm worth voting for despite that you do believe I'm a Heretic? I don't believe you are a heretic, I initially suspected you were non-Christian but then you claimed Christian, in a veiled partial claim under no pressure, and so I figured you must be a devil as there was no valid reason for a pagan or a Christian to lie about their alignment after the claims from Lightfoot, wombat and Crys. Then you said that you lied about being a Christian? In fact, come to think of it... Wombat clears Plankton, then [bGuiri [/b] investigates him the following night? That makes absolutely no sense. Even if Wombat is lying and Plankton is a Heretic, not a Christian, which I have no knowledge of (despite being a Heretic myself). Ok, now I'm ready to jump on the Guiri wagon. Vote: Guiri[/quote]Of course you are ready to jump. Just because something doesn't make sense to you, what makes it scummy? Why would wombat lie about Suburban's alignment if he's a heretic? What about godfather or plain old devil? Remember Lightfoot's reluctance to vote Patricia when she was found telling lies? I don't share your blind trust of non-Christians.
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Post by wombat99 on Feb 26, 2013 15:41:11 GMT -5
Moley, isn't it possible that there is no traditional scum night kill and the deaths have been for other reasons, such as investigations gone wrong? You don't seem to be giving that idea much weight.
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Post by guiri on Feb 26, 2013 15:45:33 GMT -5
It makes me think that possibly scum have their own investigator, for recruitment purposes. This is further possible by the fact that we have no results at all from you other than myself. Are you asking me for my results, this is a pressure vote to get me to claim?
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 15:46:05 GMT -5
Moley, isn't it possible that there is no traditional scum night kill and the deaths have been for other reasons, such as investigations gone wrong? You don't seem to be giving that idea much weight. I was the one who suggested that idea in the first place. I'm giving it a LOT of weight. I'm inclined to believe that it's true.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 15:58:13 GMT -5
I'm not ready to jump on the Guiri bandwagon yet, but I want an explanation for this vote. Guiri, do you doubt that I'm a Heretic? Or do you think I'm worth voting for despite that you do believe I'm a Heretic? I don't believe you are a heretic, I initially suspected you were non-Christian but then you claimed Christian, in a veiled partial claim under no pressure, and so I figured you must be a devil as there was no valid reason for a pagan or a Christian to lie about their alignment after the claims from Lightfoot, wombat and Crys. Then you said that you lied about being a Christian? So the fact that the first thing I did in the game after Wombat mentioned the word Heretic was to unvote Wombat means absolutely nothing to you? How else do you explain my unvote, then? I claimed Christian way back on Day One because I figured we all had the same wincon if what the Christians were saying was true, so why muddy the waters, take the heat off the devils, and put it onto myself? I stuck to it later on because I felt Wombat had put a massive target on the Heretics' backs. I stuck to it further when Lightfoot was killed - she was a third-party investigator, so was I. Basically the only two things that would've got me to claim was if Wombat's alignment was being completely dismissed as false or if I was the lynch leader. That second scenario happened, so I claimed. Plankton - I'd buy that Guiri was checking Wombat's result if Guiri had ever claimed to be able to check alignment. He hasn't. An alignment check seems to me the only pro-town reason to investigate a player who's been cleared - that way, you potentially learn valuable information about both the cleared and clearing players. What else can you check specific players for? Powers, roles, cardinal sins? All of which have a very anti-town connotation if investigated.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 16:04:53 GMT -5
Why does it make no sense? Suppose guiri is in fact a Christian Investigator. If he thinks that wombat was lying, wouldn't it have been a good idea to double-check his result? FTR, I'm not certain that guiri is Christian; I'm just fairly certain that he's not a killer in disguise. But I don't find him particularly Scummy at the moment, and I'm not overly impressed by any of the cases that are being brought against him so far Today. Don't say "I don't find him particularly scummy". I made that mistake in "Wonderland", and we ended up lynching him about five days later than we actually should have. Read my bit addressed to you in the last post I made. My point is that Guiri has never claimed to be able to double-check Wombat's result. He's never claimed to be able to investigate alignment, which to me seems like the only non-scummy form of investigation that you could apply to a player who's been "cleared" - even if you don't trust the player doing the "clearing".
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 16:09:48 GMT -5
ESPECIALLY if you don't trust the player doing the clearing.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Feb 26, 2013 16:12:30 GMT -5
I am fine with a mass claim, but I do NOT have time to organize it.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Feb 26, 2013 16:16:50 GMT -5
vote Holy Moley
vote wombat
I'm ready to lynch some non Christians, starting with the claimed heretics.
We have lost so many Christians already that if the devils are beaten soon, I believe another faction will win.
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Post by guiri on Feb 26, 2013 16:24:52 GMT -5
I don't believe you are a heretic, I initially suspected you were non-Christian but then you claimed Christian, in a veiled partial claim under no pressure, and so I figured you must be a devil as there was no valid reason for a pagan or a Christian to lie about their alignment after the claims from Lightfoot, wombat and Crys. Then you said that you lied about being a Christian? So the fact that the first thing I did in the game after Wombat mentioned the word Heretic was to unvote Wombat means absolutely nothing to you? How else do you explain my unvote, then? That's a fair point, your unvote may have been a reaction to her heretic comment but it's also likely that heretic don't pose a threat to devils or can even work with devils, maybe that's why she was signalling. I claimed Christian way back on Day One because I figured we all had the same wincon if what the Christians were saying was true, so why muddy the waters, take the heat off the devils, and put it onto myself? Where did you claim? I stuck to it later on because I felt Wombat had put a massive target on the Heretics' backs. I stuck to it further when Lightfoot was killed - she was a third-party investigator, so was I. So your wincon is to stay alive? Basically the only two things that would've got me to claim was if Wombat's alignment was being completely dismissed as false or if I was the lynch leader. That second scenario happened, so I claimed. And I'm still amazed the votes didn't pile up on you. Plankton - I'd buy that Guiri was checking Wombat's result if Guiri had ever claimed to be able to check alignment. He hasn't. Gees, I haven't claimed anything yet, see my first post toDay. An alignment check seems to me the only pro-town reason to investigate a player who's been cleared - that way, you potentially learn valuable information about both the cleared and clearing players. What else can you check specific players for? Powers, roles, cardinal sins? All of which have a very anti-town connotation if investigated. In what universe can an investigator choose what aspect of another player to investigate? In my experience it depends on the kind of investigator, not the player's choice.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 16:32:10 GMT -5
vote Holy Moley
vote wombatI'm ready to lynch some non Christians, starting with the claimed heretics. We have lost so many Christians already that if the devils are beaten soon, I believe another faction will win. And your evidence for a win-stealing faction of any description is...?
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 16:36:58 GMT -5
Gees, I haven't claimed anything yet, see my first post toDay. Evidently I missed the reference. WHAT can you investigate? In what universe can an investigator choose what aspect of another player to investigate? In my experience it depends on the kind of investigator, not the player's choice. Did I or anybody else suggest otherwise?
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 16:41:18 GMT -5
So your wincon is to stay alive? My wincon is to beat the devils, and killing the devils helps me do it. Killing myself achieves nothing positive or negative, as far as I'm aware.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 16:44:31 GMT -5
Actually, I'll rephrase that. KILLING me achieves nothing. LYNCHING me means that a devil is not lynched. That's a net loss.
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Post by dizzymrslizzy on Feb 26, 2013 16:48:36 GMT -5
I'm onboard with that...and have been for a few days.
Vote: Holy Moley Vote: Wombat
I'll work on the randomization of remaining players tonight when I get home from work if it's not too late.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 16:50:44 GMT -5
YOU HAVE TO BEAT THE DEVILS.
Anybody remember this? Guys?
Oh, and Vote: CatInASuit.
No reason to give up on the only other devil suspect I have...
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Feb 26, 2013 17:28:01 GMT -5
Holy Moley. *sigh* You just don't get it. There wouldn't be other separate groups if they couldn't win. I do not believe we all win together. There would be no point in having separate factions. My PM says I have to beat the devils to win, but it doesn't NOT say I don't have to beat any other faction. It states in the rule set that not everything is known about our win conditions.
Either you are blindly naive, being beligerently obtuse, or know this already and are trying to convince us with your large font that it isn't the case.
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Post by wombat99 on Feb 26, 2013 18:02:36 GMT -5
Holy Moley. *sigh* You just don't get it. There wouldn't be other separate groups if they couldn't win. I do not believe we all win together. There would be no point in having separate factions. My PM says I have to beat the devils to win, but it doesn't NOT say I don't have to beat any other faction. It states in the rule set that not everything is known about our win conditions. Either you are blindly naive, being beligerently obtuse, or know this already and are trying to convince us with your large font that it isn't the case. 1. Heretic isn't a faction with a separate wincon. I think you are deliberately trying to make it sound more ominous than it is. If you took my PM or any other Heretic PM and changed one simple word, Heretic, to Christian, this would not be an issue. Heretics are not a threat to Christians. We are on the same team and we have the same wincon. Remember how our PMs refer to helping your Team? Isn't it possible that Team means Christians/Heretics/Pagans against the Devils? 2. Based on your reasoning, you should be voting for Pagan Crys also. Why does she get a pass? She's not Christian either and in the World of Unknown Stuff About The Game, she could have a different wincon from the Christian one also. So... your plan is to lynch me, lynch Moley, lynch Crys, then when all of the other non-Christians are out of the way and you aren't any closer to achieving the actual wincon you were given, then you'll start looking for Devils? And what will be accomplished? You'll be down several power roles. Will that make achieving the wincon of beating the Devils easier or harder?
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Post by wombat99 on Feb 26, 2013 18:10:13 GMT -5
Hockey Monkey and MrV, I would like to know why you felt comfortable freely sharing information about your Cardinal Sin, given that we were warned never to let the Devils figure them out and that if they do, the Devils can take our souls.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 18:22:07 GMT -5
Holy Moley. *sigh* You just don't get it. There wouldn't be other separate groups if they couldn't win. I do not believe we all win together. There would be no point in having separate factions. My PM says I have to beat the devils to win, but it doesn't NOT say I don't have to beat any other faction. It states in the rule set that not everything is known about our win conditions. Either you are blindly naive, being beligerently obtuse, or know this already and are trying to convince us with your large font that it isn't the case. Call it beligerently obtuse then, because I feel like I'm the only person in this entire game who "gets" it, apart from the devils maybe. Things that are blatantly obvious to me are still being questioned by others, in spite of the overwhelming evidence that they are the case... I don't get it. I really don't. I can see many situations, some of which I've already outlined, whereby a joint win would be possible between Christians and Heretics; and many OTHER situations whereby a situation would occur where the Heretics may meet their win condition but the Christians may not win theirs. What I can't see is Pleonast setting up a situation whereby the Devils all get beaten but the Christians lose to the Heretics for a win condition of which both Christians and Heretics are completely in the dark. I mean, if you beat the devils, but then got beaten by a third-party group of whose existence you were completely unaware, you'd call it a gastard game, wouldn't you? Can you honestly believe Pleonast would allow that to happen? If Crys and Wombat hadn't claimed, it might easily have. Heck, there may still be a fourth non-Christian group with a wincon to "beat the devils" out there. Is there any evidence that there's not? What if one more Heretic / Pagan is out there? What if two more are? Are you going to go after them next as well? Are you going to ignore your win condition and turn this into a witch hunt? I can see us being in competition after death; I believe, given the information provided by Idle, that the second part of our wincons comes into play then, and concerns heaven / hell. But given that we now have both a Christian and a Pagan confirmed as being in Heaven by a confirmed Christian, it seems unlikely. More likely that we all have to get to Heaven after death, but our methods for doing so differ according to our respective alignments. Honestly, at this point I don't think the Heretics OR the Christians deserve to win; and I don't hold out much hope for poor isolated Crys. We all suck. But seriously, if it makes you feel happy, just go ahead and lynch the third-parties. You'll be practically guaranteeing yourself a loss, given that every lynch of a third-party is a missed opportunity to kill a devil. But never mind logic, win conditions, sense, evidence, whatever. Never mind that your reasons for doing so are completely different to Guiri's (I don't even know what DizzyLizzy's are), and both are different to Plankton's. Just go ahead and hand the devils the victory they are probably going to get anyway.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 18:35:20 GMT -5
Change one part of that: Ginger isn't a confirmed Christian. Although if by some miracle I survive this lynch, I don't think I'll be voting for her unless some evidence comes up to suggest her role is fake.
So I've been overtly suspicious of the same character for three days straight now. Unfortunately that character has been played by two different people, so I can't ask Kid Vermicious to justify stuff like this:
- KidV voted for Patricia at the exact point where it became obvious that the lynch wagon on her had legs. No big deal, so did Scathach. But then we have...
- KidV voted Lightfoot on bad reasoning provided by another player, and continued to try and justify that reasoning long after it was obvious that it made no sense. He never once questioned that reasoning.
- KidV voted SisterCoyote on similarly shaky reasoning, but unlike others, never once questioned its validity or engaged with her after she'd tried to defend herself.
These last two points, to me, show that KidV is playing a much less sceptical game than he has done before when he's been town and I've been scum. I don't know how much that was down to real-life issues, but I do know that his attitude change makes me very nervous indeed. Couple that with the fact that KidV / CatInASuit is one of the few people who's not claimed anything yet, and I think a lynch there is justified.
CatInASuit, I'd like to hear a claim from you specifically, plus anything you can tell us to provide evidence that it's true - confirmable role actions, etc.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 26, 2013 18:43:06 GMT -5
Oh, and one last thing.
Pollux's lynch is still unexplained. This doesn't absolutely mean that it was a devil power that caused it - it may be a Christian or another non-devil player who made a mistake - but it looks increasingly likely. If Texcat and Plankton are both Christian then I'm tempted to look at the third person who was in danger, Scathach.
I've had misgivings about him before - specifically about his role title - I again find it difficult to believe that the mods would accidentally give a Christian a role title that is associated with Satan in a game where the antagonists are devils. His "gravedigger" role could easily be associated with devils as well as Christians, and there's no guarantee that it's the only power that he has. (There's no guarantee that it even exists, either, although I'm inclined to believe that he's told the truth about that. There's a certain symmetry about having a Christian complete the day reveals, and a devil complete the night ones.)
Finally, he was the other person, apart from KidV, who voted Patricia just when her lynch was starting to look like a serious likelihood. Again, I think it's very likely that at least one devil voted her at this time. Assuming the devils knew each others' identities (which I think is a fair assumption at least - it would likely unbalance the game if devils could lynch each other accidentally).
Therefore, Vote: Scathach.
For those counting, I'm now voting Guiri, Scathach, and CatInASuit.
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