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Post by Pleonast on Apr 17, 2013 9:55:41 GMT -5
The Penitent expresses their will to live as the Dusk suddenly falls. The Night is cold and dark. Unseen to the survivor, the spectre of Death hunts them, but is guarded by an angel. The light of the new Day appears and has won. All Christians, Pagans and Heretics are victorious, as the Devils have been stopped. Thank you all for suffering through the game to the end. As always, your comments are valued and will influence my future designs. Spoiled boards should be open now. The PrioryPurgatoryHellHeaven
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 17, 2013 11:47:05 GMT -5
I've been active in the game since Day 2(when I subbed) and I still don't get why this isn't a draw at best.
Colby was stuck in a loop of eternally living or dying. The Devils(my team) could easily wait him out until he self lynches, giving us the victory. I accept a draw, but not that we lost.
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 17, 2013 11:47:52 GMT -5
Oh, and this was my favorite mafia game of all time. I've never been in one that lasted so long and it was great fun to be a devil. I had more fun in my afterlife than in my "life life". Massive props and thanks to Pleonast for coming up with the idea.
And I love that recruitment never existed. Heh. We giggled the entire game about it.
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Post by guiri on Apr 17, 2013 11:49:43 GMT -5
Well done non-devils, it was a long and fun game. Thanks Pleo!
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Post by ryjae on Apr 17, 2013 11:49:58 GMT -5
Awesome setup I blew it a few times but so entertaining
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 17, 2013 11:53:29 GMT -5
Did everyone know that us Devils were playing post-life for most of the game?
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 17, 2013 11:57:58 GMT -5
I've been active in the game since Day 2(when I subbed) and I still don't get why this isn't a draw at best. Colby was stuck in a loop of eternally living or dying. The Devils(my team) could easily wait him out until he self lynches, giving us the victory. I accept a draw, but not that we lost. The Devils were stopped. They had not satisfied their victory conditions and they had no further actions they could to take to satisfy them. The remaining non-Devil showed intent to not take actions that would result in the Devils winning. I think calling it a non-Devil win is fair. But it was still a close thing.
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Post by guiri on Apr 17, 2013 12:09:49 GMT -5
Well, I suppose I have three questions for Pleo: 1. Why did you let heaven submit a conditional protect? Why bother having a game mechanism if it's automatically activated? 2. Did Idle actually submit an order for Night 16? 3. How did you expect the sin-guessing to play out?
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 17, 2013 12:32:44 GMT -5
1. Why did you let heaven submit a conditional protect? Why bother having a game mechanism if it's automatically activated? All players can submit conditional orders, based on in-game information they will have. It's not unusual for some powers to be automatic. But the guardian angel was not.
2. Did Idle actually submit an order for Night 16? Yes.
3. How did you expect the sin-guessing to play out? I expected that players would be more tight-lipped about their Cardinal Sin. The hint was "Never reveal to another player nor allow another player to figure out your Cardinal Sin." Many players did the first part, but did not do the second. The second part was intended to indicate that more than the name of the Cardinal Sin was important.
And I expected that players would use their Cardinal Sin powers more. The hint "Removing your sins will always help your team, but increasing them may or may not be beneficial." was supposed to indicate that gaining sins may be somewhat useful, depending on circumstances.
The Cardinal Sin power was bonus power given to almost every player. silverjan used theirs very effectively. But not many did. Even the Devils didn't use them much.
So, the question is why? Were the powers to complicated? Was the cost of a sin too high? Would you use a Cardinal Sin power if you knew more?
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 17, 2013 12:38:14 GMT -5
I sinned attempted a Sin every Night or Day I was in the game, but I have no idea about the non-Devil team.
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 17, 2013 12:38:50 GMT -5
I sinned attempted a Sin every Night or Day I was in the game, but I have no idea about the non-Devil team. Make that "every Night or Day I was alive" in the game. I was in the game until the end, but lost some power mid-way.
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Post by ryjae on Apr 17, 2013 12:42:15 GMT -5
I was too worried about blocking a player even if they had voted for me that would be beneficial to my team. I was lost most of the game, glad I wasn't alone. I did get a good idea that Heaven vs Hell was a lot of the game just didn't realize how much of the game. And geesh Idle is a pitbull he gets an idea and won't let go! lol Fun fun fun game.
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Post by guiri on Apr 17, 2013 12:57:16 GMT -5
1. Why did you let heaven submit a conditional protect? Why bother having a game mechanism if it's automatically activated?All players can submit conditional orders, based on in-game information they will have. It's not unusual for some powers to be automatic. But the guardian angel was not. Next time I get a doc role in one of your games I'll be sure to submit a conditional action "protect whoever [the bad guys] try and kill" . Personally I was just overwhelmed with the amount of info, I barely paid attention to the cardinal sins, avoided visiting purgatory, and managed to not read the bit about guardian angels...
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Post by scáthach on Apr 17, 2013 13:06:21 GMT -5
The Cardinal Sin power was bonus power given to almost every player. silverjan used theirs very effectively. But not many did. Even the Devils didn't use them much. So, the question is why? Were the powers to complicated? Was the cost of a sin too high? Would you use a Cardinal Sin power if you knew more? I assumed using them was how the Devils could figure them out. Sent from my 097Q1 using proboards
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Hockey Monkey!
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This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Apr 17, 2013 15:45:07 GMT -5
The Cardinal Sin power was bonus power given to almost every player. silverjan used theirs very effectively. But not many did. Even the Devils didn't use them much. So, the question is why? Were the powers to complicated? Was the cost of a sin too high? Would you use a Cardinal Sin power if you knew more? I assumed using them was how the Devils could figure them out. Sent from my 097Q1 using proboards Yeah, that. The fact that they had a list of powers and the sins connected to them pissed me right off.
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Post by texcat on Apr 17, 2013 15:49:48 GMT -5
Was this the longest game ever? I loved being spoiled and still being able to participate from heaven. And still find it ironic that I used my guardian angel power to save the person who town bussed me.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 17, 2013 16:19:25 GMT -5
I assumed using them was how the Devils could figure them out. Yeah, that. The fact that they had a list of powers and the sins connected to them pissed me right off. Yeah, that was one of the harder things to balance. There's no intrinsic reason that scum can't be more spoiled than usual, but it is a huge advantage. On the other side, the players who got to Heaven had the complete game state in order to maximize their one-shot powers. Was this the longest game ever? I loved being spoiled and still being able to participate from heaven. And still find it ironic that I used my guardian angel power to save the person who town bussed me. We fell a week shy of three months: Jan 23 thru Apr 17. I think my favorite novelty is colby playing "one-handed" Mafia. Not really of course, but hard to tell otherwise from their point of view.
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Post by ryjae on Apr 17, 2013 16:56:53 GMT -5
I would totally play another game like this out of the ordinary left us all guessing. To answer a question I seem somewhere I vote myself to spare Idle a sin by that time I knew I sinned so....
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Post by Holy Moley! on Apr 17, 2013 17:44:59 GMT -5
If it wasn't for the mention of recruitment, I would say this was a work of insane genius. It might still be, but it's also IMO the greatest bit of extended trolling this board has ever seen.
And this was my first ever third-party game! Nobody ever wants to make me town, do they? (Well, technically "town" was the Christians, Heretics and Pagans collectively... but you get my point.) I think the random number generator just hates my guts. I went through a spell of something like twenty-odd games where I just got town after town after town... and now I can't get town to save my life.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Apr 17, 2013 18:01:19 GMT -5
Oh, and "trolling" aside, this might be my worst performance ever! If it wasn't for the fact that I had KidV pegged VERY early on (no freaking way the guy who hunts me as hard as he does just accepts two blatantly faulty cases as easily as he did in this game - he had to be lying) then I'd honestly say it'd be my worst ever. And I've had some howlers. Just about my first positive action in this game was to give my cardinal sin away to a devil ( Chucara, of course.) My last living action was to proclaim that Guiri, the last living scum, was "probably not a devil". Despite the fact that I'd been on-and-off on him the entire. freaking. game. I honestly think that Colby might've shot Guiri anyway, just because I said he wasn't a devil. Whatever I said regarding alignments was pretty much guaranteed to be the opposite of the truth! (I will say, Guiri, that you didn't have me fooled at all in this one - I was suspicious of you the entire way through. The last game we were in where you were scum, I pretty much ruled you out from Day Three right until a few hours before your lynch. This time, I had you down as at least a possible suspect the whole time, and for much of the game you were "up there"; the problem was that I just couldn't pin anything on you. Of course, for practical purposes, it doesn't really matter - you're not getting lynched by me either way!) I think there's some justice in the fact that Colby was the last survivor and got the win, because he was the game MVP from the start. (Well, apart from shooting Lightfoot. That was terrible - and also provoked me into blocking the shot that would've taken out CIAS. But other than that...) How many devils did you take out, Colby? Two, with a failed (thanks to me) shot at a third?
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 17, 2013 21:29:26 GMT -5
Was this the longest game ever? I loved being spoiled and still being able to participate from heaven. And still find it ironic that I used my guardian angel power to save the person who town bussed me. Heh, yeah, sorry about that. I never used my Cardinal Sin power. Not once. It didn't seem worth it. Seemed very, very, very hard for it to be successful. Basically it was this: I submit how many total active votes I think will be cast by the end of the next Day. More than one person has my CS, though, and might be doing the same....so whoever comes CLOSEST to guessing the number of active votes WITHOUT GOING OVER will be told the alignment of whoever comes in second with the most number of votes (IE, the one who wasn't lynched). Just seemed too convoluted. Plus, with me thinking I was sin free all that time, it seemed like a bad thing to use it because of it giving me sin. I now know it wouldn't have mattered since I had sin anyway (from a secret sin gaining reason).
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 17, 2013 21:31:01 GMT -5
I'm still not convinced we lost. It was a draw, which I'll only concede because of the infinity loop created by waiting for colby to kill himself.
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Post by Colby11 on Apr 17, 2013 22:25:47 GMT -5
I have yet to be spoiled... But I do have the following to say My cardinal sin power was that if I casted the first vote for whoever is lynched, whether it was active or not at EOD, my kill could not be blocked or redirected. I didn't find it useful, especially since I would sin with it It boiled down to one thing- would staying alive stop the devils? Since we had been full of Christians since I killed Guiri, I figured I should live. Great, maybe that's why everyone decided to kill me in Pollux's game over on Giraffe... Colby vs everyone else... Finally, I say this We win!
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Post by CatInASuit on Apr 18, 2013 6:49:38 GMT -5
Well, that was close indeed.
Pleonast thanks for the game, It was great fun even though I was a marked scum from the start.
Colby - congrats definitely the MVP for the town.
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Post by Colby11 on Apr 18, 2013 7:49:33 GMT -5
Well, that was close indeed. Pleonast thanks for the game, It was great fun even though I was a marked scum from the start. Colby - congrats definitely the MVP for the town. I would say co MVP Ryjae also helped pull it off, because that's how we narrowed it down.
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Post by Silver Jan on Apr 18, 2013 7:50:28 GMT -5
Thanks Pleo, it was an awesome game, especially as I got to slake my lust nearly every night hehehe.
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Post by ryjae on Apr 18, 2013 9:18:09 GMT -5
I trusted Colby more so than Idle toward the end based purely on a bad hunch it is a good thing we all turned out to be truthful I need to thank those in heaven for covering our asses, saved us quite a few times. This game was fun, interesting and so screwy it was awesome. More than once I thought about asking for a sub, not because I wasn't enjoying myself but I was so confused and knowing my power was a "good" power for town I thought I was frucking it up too badly. I still think of the thought process in pretty much exposing myself and clearing others whether it was the right plan or the wrong one. I knew it wouldn't be taken as true until I died though I was hoping for a tradeoff, cleansed on my death would be good. Idle though, Idle kept bringing up that lingering recruitment doubt that stuck in my mind as well as others. Being hinted at, made the game more interesting without any mention of recruitment the game would have probably been shorter and not as intense IMO.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 18, 2013 9:37:49 GMT -5
If it wasn't for the mention of recruitment, I would say this was a work of insane genius. It might still be, but it's also IMO the greatest bit of extended trolling this board has ever seen. One of my basic rules of thumb in Mafia game design is "players must make assessments of other players". This leads to "no 100% certain moderator confirmations of living players". And to further that, I've put in the possibility of recruitment in many of my games. A few of them actually had recruitment. In this game, the possibility of recruitment was one of the design decisions to reduce the power of a mass claim by town. (Similar to adding two synonyms for town, to limit the more powerful roles.) By the way, for anyone somewhat unhappy about particular pieces of the game, be sure to read through the complete rules set before coming to any conclusions. Both sides were rather over-powered, so there were a lot of weird limitations built in to keep things balanced.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 18, 2013 9:43:45 GMT -5
Oh, I want to mention one of my big disappointments. I was really hoping for some fun with the Medium role (held by crys). One of the most powerful synergies in this game was between the Shepherd and the Medium. The Shepherd had the power to stay in Purgatory for a very long time. The Medium could talk to players in Purgatory. Together, they were a long-term conduit from the dead to the living, which potentially could have given the town a ton of information. Even without the Shepherd in Purgatory, there was still some chance to get good info from the dead.
But the Martyr was successful on Night One, which kept players out of Purgatory for a long time. So the Medium had no one at all to talk to. Oh, well.
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Post by sachertorte on Apr 18, 2013 12:42:18 GMT -5
So I finally got around to poking at the game set-up. (thanks Pleonast for opening it up to non-registrants. I'm too lazy to sign up for yet another board).
Anyway, I have to agree with Idle Thoughts that not allowing living players to know that all the Devils were dead was a design flaw. While Pleonast offered hints to the setup, I think Pleonast fell into the trap that hints with full-knowledge look very different than the same hint while lacking knowledge. Honestly, I think Idle Thoughts's belief that killing players without sin and getting them to heaven was a decent interpretation. Fact is, the information Idle Thoughts had strongly hinted that this was the case. In fact, it WAS true that getting enough players to Heaven removes one of the Devil win conditions.
Pretty much all of Idle's "mistakes" were due to understandable lack of knowledge or emphasizing one hint at the expense of another. Perhaps Idle should have been more open to the idea that he might be wrong, but the conclusions he made were fairly reasonable given the information available.
From Pleo's board:
"Idle, there were clear hints on how non-Devils win.
It is good for non-Devils to go to Heaven. The players there have really helped the non-Devils with well-placed protections. (Although a few players dropped the ball by disappearing before they used their one-shot power.) It just that "it's good to go Heaven" is not on a hint on how to win."
I don't think the hints were as clear as Pleonast intended them to be. "It's good to go to Heaven" certainly sounds like a hint on how to win to me.
Also Pleonast states: "Second, this was billed as a multi-level, player-after-death game (including some players with more information about that) which kind of implies that death is not final."
Which can also be interpreted to mean everyone needs to die, which was not the case, but would have been a reasonable interpretation.
I read (skimmed) the game unspoiled, and most everything I saw the town do seemed reasonable to me. They correctly voted No Lynch to test that possibility, but when that failed to end the game, going back to lynching made perfect sense.
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