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Post by Holy Moley! on Apr 18, 2013 18:38:37 GMT -5
If it wasn't for the mention of recruitment, I would say this was a work of insane genius. It might still be, but it's also IMO the greatest bit of extended trolling this board has ever seen. One of my basic rules of thumb in Mafia game design is "players must make assessments of other players". This leads to "no 100% certain moderator confirmations of living players". And to further that, I've put in the possibility of recruitment in many of my games. A few of them actually had recruitment. In this game, the possibility of recruitment was one of the design decisions to reduce the power of a mass claim by town. (Similar to adding two synonyms for town, to limit the more powerful roles.) I've got no problems with the third-parties... but here's how I was looking at the game. On the first FOUR nights, it was quite possible for there to have been not a single scummy night-kill. On any or all of those nights, someone may have been recruited. Why not? The possibility of recruitment had been "confirmed" by a mod, mentioned both in the rules and in some townies' powers. The end result: I can't trust anybody. I had major suspicions of people who'd already been "cleared". There were people I correctly worked out were town early on but who I thought might have been recruited later on. In the end I wasn't trusting anybody. (Apart from Chucara, of course. And apparently Guiri at the end. Yeah...) If you bring up the possibilty of recruitment, then DO recruitment, and make the players on both sides aware of exactly what the recruitment mechanics are. Otherwise how are you supposed to play as town? You could eliminate one player one day, only to have them turn into scum the next, with zero evidence that this might be the case. The other major flaw, of course, was that there was so little penalty for scum to be lynched, there was really no need for them to play actively at all when they were still alive. Halfway through the game, all of them were dead, yet they still came really close to winning.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Apr 18, 2013 18:57:02 GMT -5
Also, Idle Thoughts was clearly a devil. I'm still not buying that he wasn't.
Way too much information about game mechanics, coupled with the Texcat thing...
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 18, 2013 19:06:55 GMT -5
The other major flaw, of course, was that there was so little penalty for scum to be lynched, there was really no need for them to play actively at all when they were still alive. Halfway through the game, all of them were dead, yet they still came really close to winning. I actually hinted that when I died. I posted: No. Stop. Ouch. Please, don't. How dare you. And continued undeterred all the way to the end.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 19, 2013 10:07:24 GMT -5
Anyway, I have to agree with Idle Thoughts that not allowing living players to know that all the Devils were dead was a design flaw. While Pleonast offered hints to the setup, I think Pleonast fell into the trap that hints with full-knowledge look very different than the same hint while lacking knowledge. Honestly, I think Idle Thoughts's belief that killing players without sin and getting them to heaven was a decent interpretation. Fact is, the information Idle Thoughts had strongly hinted that this was the case. In fact, it WAS true that getting enough players to Heaven removes one of the Devil win conditions. Again, this is showing confusion between what is good for a team and what is needed to win. Every player received a hint or three about what they need to do to win. That one player received additional information about game mechanics should not have erased the win hints given to them in their role PMs. I certainly don't fault Idle for their play, because it was good play, overall. Even the town bussing. And not a design flaw--read through the powers that the non-Devils had. (Or ask some Devils about the uphill struggle they felt they had.) I needed to put in limitations. Lack of perfect knowledge of the non-Devils victory conditions was an intended design. The end result: I can't trust anybody. I had major suspicions of people who'd already been "cleared". There were people I correctly worked out were town early on but who I thought might have been recruited later on. In the end I wasn't trusting anybody. (Apart from Chucara, of course. And apparently Guiri at the end. Yeah...) If you bring up the possibilty of recruitment, then DO recruitment, and make the players on both sides aware of exactly what the recruitment mechanics are. Otherwise how are you supposed to play as town? You could eliminate one player one day, only to have them turn into scum the next, with zero evidence that this might be the case. Yes, "I can't trust anybody" was the main point of having a possibility of recruitment. Yes, this makes the game hard, but that was factored into the design (the powers, the alignments, the victory conditions, etc). Think of it this way: without the possibility of recruitment and nothing else changed, the non-Devils would've won much quicker. That's how critical the possibility of recruitment was to game balance. And I did consider giving the Devils some sort of recruitment power. But I decided to give them other powers instead. The extra step of going from maybe recruitment to definitely recruitment is a big one. The other major flaw, of course, was that there was so little penalty for scum to be lynched, there was really no need for them to play actively at all when they were still alive. Halfway through the game, all of them were dead, yet they still came really close to winning. Again, an intentional part of the design and necessary for a playable multi-level game. Any dead player lost some powers, but still had something to do that could affect the game outcome.
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Post by Silver Jan on Apr 19, 2013 14:37:28 GMT -5
The whole look of my account has changed, must be the Devils getting their revenge! Back to the game, I was rather glad that I died when I did because although I could offer protection against NK's it also gave the person a sin (damn you Idle, you refused my lust I thought that maybe I protected Burby cos I was watching him every night, only cos I couldn't figure out a way to not skip a Night of watching anyone. I don't often vote a lot and multi vote games are few and far between. It was a fun game because it kept most players involved right up until the end, Well Done Pleo, even though you forgot my automatic lookout role most of the time
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 19, 2013 15:33:48 GMT -5
It was a fun game because it kept most players involved right up until the end, Well Done Pleo, even though you forgot my automatic lookout role most of the time Sorry about that. I made several moderating mistakes. In my defense the game had a lot of powers interacting with each other. (Go look at the double-entry bookkeeping I had to do.) I blame the game's designer for making it too complicated.
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Post by lauriern on Apr 20, 2013 9:23:53 GMT -5
Thank you, Pleo. I loved this game.
I think Town did very well overall, the only thing that was frustrating to me was all the talk about Cardinal Sins. I think our Mod made it more than clear they should not be discussed (b/c then our CS could be figured out by others).
I also loved being able to participate after my suicide by using the Guardian Angel power.
At first, after I was spoiled, I was upset that the Devils had so much info about the game but as the game progressed, I realized that Town had powerful roles and with the Guardian Angel powers, the Devils' knowledge/power was balanced.
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Post by Silver Jan on Apr 20, 2013 13:51:56 GMT -5
I actually felt bad about your suicide lauriern, trust me next time hehe, I could be scum next game though. Another game like this could never have the same impact as this one. It was the same with Pizza's game where he only had one scum, never to be repeated with the same effect.
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Post by lauriern on Apr 21, 2013 8:27:04 GMT -5
Don't feel bad silverjan. I was just wrong again! From now on, I'm voting people who I think are Town - I think I'll have better luck that way One Scum?!? That must have driven everyone mad. Sounds like a fun game.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Apr 22, 2013 18:35:48 GMT -5
Anyway, I have to agree with Idle Thoughts that not allowing living players to know that all the Devils were dead was a design flaw. While Pleonast offered hints to the setup, I think Pleonast fell into the trap that hints with full-knowledge look very different than the same hint while lacking knowledge. Honestly, I think Idle Thoughts's belief that killing players without sin and getting them to heaven was a decent interpretation. Fact is, the information Idle Thoughts had strongly hinted that this was the case. In fact, it WAS true that getting enough players to Heaven removes one of the Devil win conditions. Again, this is showing confusion between what is good for a team and what is needed to win. Every player received a hint or three about what they need to do to win. That one player received additional information about game mechanics should not have erased the win hints given to them in their role PMs. I certainly don't fault Idle for their play, because it was good play, overall. Even the town bussing. And not a design flaw--read through the powers that the non-Devils had. (Or ask some Devils about the uphill struggle they felt they had.) I needed to put in limitations. Lack of perfect knowledge of the non-Devils victory conditions was an intended design. The end result: I can't trust anybody. I had major suspicions of people who'd already been "cleared". There were people I correctly worked out were town early on but who I thought might have been recruited later on. In the end I wasn't trusting anybody. (Apart from Chucara, of course. And apparently Guiri at the end. Yeah...) If you bring up the possibilty of recruitment, then DO recruitment, and make the players on both sides aware of exactly what the recruitment mechanics are. Otherwise how are you supposed to play as town? You could eliminate one player one day, only to have them turn into scum the next, with zero evidence that this might be the case. Yes, "I can't trust anybody" was the main point of having a possibility of recruitment. Yes, this makes the game hard, but that was factored into the design (the powers, the alignments, the victory conditions, etc). Think of it this way: without the possibility of recruitment and nothing else changed, the non-Devils would've won much quicker. That's how critical the possibility of recruitment was to game balance. And I did consider giving the Devils some sort of recruitment power. But I decided to give them other powers instead. The extra step of going from maybe recruitment to definitely recruitment is a big one. The other major flaw, of course, was that there was so little penalty for scum to be lynched, there was really no need for them to play actively at all when they were still alive. Halfway through the game, all of them were dead, yet they still came really close to winning. Again, an intentional part of the design and necessary for a playable multi-level game. Any dead player lost some powers, but still had something to do that could affect the game outcome. Yeah... I agree that this was a fun game in some ways... but note that the players saying that are mostly the ones who died early. Those still in the land of the living weren't feeling it as much. The result of that intended design was... a majority of scum who posted VERY little each day - generally just a few posts - because they'd got no incentive to do otherwise. Meanwhile, the town's making almost no reasoned arguments anywhere - just the usual cliches about third-parties, etc - because they've not got enough data on which to make a decision. Just a whole lot of stuff that may or may not be relevant regarding to roles, win-conditions that are ambiguous, almost no information about the devils, etc. I'm not saying this wasn't fun - it frequently was - but if you define a "game" as groups of players working against each other to earn a specific win condition, then this wasn't a game. Like I said, trolling. And if you have to bring up the possibility of "recruitment" when there isn't any to "balance" your game, there's something wrong with it in the first place. Sorry if I'm riding you a little hard here, but I honestly feel like you've wasted my time with this one. I don't know if the intention was to "troll" but that's how it feels. I LOVE the idea of the game, the work that's gone into it is obvious, but in the end the players should be able to trust the mod.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 24, 2013 10:26:35 GMT -5
The result of that intended design was... a majority of scum who posted VERY little each day - generally just a few posts - because they'd got no incentive to do otherwise. Meanwhile, the town's making almost no reasoned arguments anywhere - just the usual cliches about third-parties, etc - because they've not got enough data on which to make a decision. Just a whole lot of stuff that may or may not be relevant regarding to roles, win-conditions that are ambiguous, almost no information about the devils, etc. Unfortunately, these are general problems of all mafia games. Scum don't want to talk; town has little information. It's really up to the players to enforce play standards. I don't know of any solutions that come from the design or moderation. And I'll note that the scum tactic of not talking much didn't work this game--they were lynched or vig'd quite efficiently. And if you have to bring up the possibility of "recruitment" when there isn't any to "balance" your game, there's something wrong with it in the first place. Sorry if I'm riding you a little hard here, but I honestly feel like you've wasted my time with this one. I don't know if the intention was to "troll" but that's how it feels. I LOVE the idea of the game, the work that's gone into it is obvious, but in the end the players should be able to trust the mod. There was no false information given about the game. Players should expect to not have complete information. Think of it this way. Let's say the Devils had a recruiter, but they were lynched on Day One. The game would have played exactly the same as it did. Would you still feel the same way?
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Apr 26, 2013 7:09:59 GMT -5
that was a long game. sorry i couldn't finish. was a bit disappointed at the short leash by the mod. he has given totally inactive players more leeway.
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