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Post by sario on Apr 25, 2013 10:06:24 GMT -5
PM received, I'll read and comment when I get home tonight
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 25, 2013 10:29:55 GMT -5
ok, i read the rules a little bit more (frankly, it gives me a headache). i retract what i said about pleo earlier. most, if not all, roles in the expansion sets are town aligned. so to a great extent he claimed town just with a power, right?
and honestly that does not surprise me in the least.
i mean if if he's not going to claim niller where is the stretch to claim town power?
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 25, 2013 11:11:42 GMT -5
ok, i read the rules a little bit more (frankly, it gives me a headache). i retract what i said about pleo earlier. most, if not all, roles in the expansion sets are town aligned. so to a great extent he claimed town just with a power, right? You'll want to unretract what you said. To translate the current game's terms into our local mafia dialect: we're each given a "Character" that determines our powers, which is very similar to a role. And we are also given a "Type" which corresponds to alignment. There are a total of 24 Characters, each of can be any Type (with a few exceptions). To repeat, because this is important, most Characters can be any Type. The only Characters that must have a Village alignment are Priest, Acolyte, Bishop, and Nun. All other Characters could be Village or Witch.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Apr 25, 2013 11:12:28 GMT -5
ok, i read the rules a little bit more (frankly, it gives me a headache). i retract what i said about pleo earlier. most, if not all, roles in the expansion sets are town aligned. so to a great extent he claimed town just with a power, right? and honestly that does not surprise me in the least. i mean if if he's not going to claim niller where is the stretch to claim town power? Actually you're wrong. If I've read and understood the rules correctly (which take with a grain of salt because I've read them, but just as a quick refresher because I wasn't actually expecting to play) the fact is, aside from the indicated "Holy" roles, each role can go to either a Villager or a Witch. So Pleonast hasn't actually told us anything about his alignment. Furthermore, since everyone gets a character, everyone has a power, so essentially all he's done is give us a smaller subset of roles that he might be. His alignment could be Town or Witch, and he could be any of the types within both sets. This is, quite frankly, the least information Pleo's given out in his first post in a game in a long time. While I'm talking, I might as well point out that the Halftime/Showdown Set was the reason I was hesitant to sign up in the first place (even though I ended up drafted anyway so it's ironic this was the choice). I feel like the Halftime set is inherently broken. If the Bishop exists and/or survives to midway through the game, he essentially serves the game to Town on a silver platter, regardless of how well the Coven has been playing up until that point. The only time he doesn't is if we lynch all the Coven members before Halftime, which then makes his power useless, I guess? But as far as I can tell, the Bishop is essentially a role that prevents any Coven members from getting to the end of the game if he's still alive at Halftime, which in turn makes the first half of the game a Bishop hunt for the scum.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 25, 2013 11:15:22 GMT -5
Aha. I see your question now, Sai. Still getting used to the new boards, and I don't think the 'new' flag is working quite the same way it did before.
Feel free to call me Cookies.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 25, 2013 11:25:31 GMT -5
This is, quite frankly, the least information Pleo's given out in his first post in a game in a long time. Since Meeko isn't here, I'll channel a response from them: " Pleo never gives out information, only wine".
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 25, 2013 11:30:19 GMT -5
ok, i read the rules a little bit more (frankly, it gives me a headache). i retract what i said about pleo earlier. most, if not all, roles in the expansion sets are town aligned. so to a great extent he claimed town just with a power, right? You'll want to unretract what you said. To translate the current game's terms into our local mafia dialect: we're each given a "Character" that determines our powers, which is very similar to a role. And we are also given a "Type" which corresponds to alignment. There are a total of 24 Characters, each of can be any Type (with a few exceptions). To repeat, because this is important, most Characters can be any Type. The only Characters that must have a Village alignment are Priest, Acolyte, Bishop, and Nun. All other Characters could be Village or Witch. so you are claiming power witch?
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 25, 2013 11:31:33 GMT -5
and unretract means to affirm, right? kind of like a double negative?
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Post by chocolatepi on Apr 25, 2013 11:38:34 GMT -5
With regards to player type, in this game there are:
4 Holy Villagers (Priest, Bishop, Acolyte, Nun) 10 Basic Villagers 3 Village Spies
4 Elder Witches 3 Junior Witches
I am sorry this information was not stated in an easily accessible location previously. I will add it to the second post.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 25, 2013 11:41:57 GMT -5
ok, i read the rules a little bit more (frankly, it gives me a headache). i retract what i said about pleo earlier. most, if not all, roles in the expansion sets are town aligned. so to a great extent he claimed town just with a power, right? and honestly that does not surprise me in the least. i mean if if he's not going to claim niller where is the stretch to claim town power? Actually you're wrong. If I've read and understood the rules correctly (which take with a grain of salt because I've read them, but just as a quick refresher because I wasn't actually expecting to play) the fact is, aside from the indicated "Holy" roles, each role can go to either a Villager or a Witch. So Pleonast hasn't actually told us anything about his alignment. Furthermore, since everyone gets a character, everyone has a power, so essentially all he's done is give us a smaller subset of roles that he might be. His alignment could be Town or Witch, and he could be any of the types within both sets. This is, quite frankly, the least information Pleo's given out in his first post in a game in a long time. While I'm talking, I might as well point out that the Halftime/Showdown Set was the reason I was hesitant to sign up in the first place (even though I ended up drafted anyway so it's ironic this was the choice). I feel like the Halftime set is inherently broken. If the Bishop exists and/or survives to midway through the game, he essentially serves the game to Town on a silver platter, regardless of how well the Coven has been playing up until that point. The only time he doesn't is if we lynch all the Coven members before Halftime, which then makes his power useless, I guess? But as far as I can tell, the Bishop is essentially a role that prevents any Coven members from getting to the end of the game if he's still alive at Halftime, which in turn makes the first half of the game a Bishop hunt for the scum. and this is a double rut roh. i was thinking the durn same thing (great minds think alike and fools seldom differ). but i think the lack of reveals kind of mitigates this. carp, everyone is going to claim bishop and then their power becomes essentially useless. really, am i going to trust one over another? i guess we just have to go back to the bad old days and suss the scum out on our own. and really if we lynch all the durn witches before halftime who the fuck cares what the bishop might say other than "nice job".
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 25, 2013 11:43:59 GMT -5
This is, quite frankly, the least information Pleo's given out in his first post in a game in a long time. Since Meeko isn't here, I'll channel a response from them: " Pleo never gives out information, only wine". typically it is only whine, but whathefuckever.
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Post by Pleonast on Apr 25, 2013 11:51:25 GMT -5
While I'm talking, I might as well point out that the Halftime/Showdown Set was the reason I was hesitant to sign up in the first place (even though I ended up drafted anyway so it's ironic this was the choice). I feel like the Halftime set is inherently broken. If the Bishop exists and/or survives to midway through the game, he essentially serves the game to Town on a silver platter, regardless of how well the Coven has been playing up until that point. The only time he doesn't is if we lynch all the Coven members before Halftime, which then makes his power useless, I guess? But as far as I can tell, the Bishop is essentially a role that prevents any Coven members from getting to the end of the game if he's still alive at Halftime, which in turn makes the first half of the game a Bishop hunt for the scum. The Junior Witches complicate the matter. If they have not joined the Coven, then those Witches will be not be discovered by the Bishop. When we get close to Halftime, we might consider forcing the Junior Witches to join the Coven by offing the Village Spies. Depending how many Spies are left at that point and whether or not the Bishop is alive, it might be a worthwhile trade. But that's a lot of ifs. I'm mentioning so that the Spies can consider it when it gets close.
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Post by chocolatepi on Apr 25, 2013 12:02:59 GMT -5
The Junior Witches complicate the matter. If they have not joined the Coven, then those Witches will be not be discovered by the Bishop. I'd like to confirm that this is indeed correct. It may surprise you all how difficult it is for the Bishop to actually go off. Keep in mind that the Bishop doesn't just have to survive until Halftime, he also has to survive through Halftime. When you have 7 Witch team members, all with unique abilities (especially ones with extra kills or information), it's hard to live that long as a top target. I've moderated or played in several dozens games with a Bishop, and have seen him go off maybe four times ever. And I recall one of those games, the Junior Witches still pulled out a Witch win.
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 25, 2013 12:24:52 GMT -5
Why did I say "also?" Why is ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies ignoring that post? How does one track peekercpa's thought process? So many questions! Track peeker's thoughts? I usually rely on Meeko to make things clearer. Nah, just kidding(we love you, meeko). For peeker, you don't track, you sift through. I think it's just a null tell honestly. <snipped> It's a 50/50 shot of whether he's telling the truth. danger danger will robinson. nothing pleo does is a "null tell". the 50/50, i'll give you that. Actually, given the 50/50, it was kind of a null tell. And as others have said, that is less than we usually get from Pleo.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 25, 2013 12:55:59 GMT -5
While I'm talking, I might as well point out that the Halftime/Showdown Set was the reason I was hesitant to sign up in the first place (even though I ended up drafted anyway so it's ironic this was the choice). I feel like the Halftime set is inherently broken. If the Bishop exists and/or survives to midway through the game, he essentially serves the game to Town on a silver platter, regardless of how well the Coven has been playing up until that point. The only time he doesn't is if we lynch all the Coven members before Halftime, which then makes his power useless, I guess? But as far as I can tell, the Bishop is essentially a role that prevents any Coven members from getting to the end of the game if he's still alive at Halftime, which in turn makes the first half of the game a Bishop hunt for the scum. The Junior Witches complicate the matter. If they have not joined the Coven, then those Witches will be not be discovered by the Bishop. When we get close to Halftime, we might consider forcing the Junior Witches to join the Coven by offing the Village Spies. Depending how many Spies are left at that point and whether or not the Bishop is alive, it might be a worthwhile trade. But that's a lot of ifs. I'm mentioning so that the Spies can consider it when it gets close. yaknow this kind of makes sense (and it was difficult typing that). so our job is to protect the bishop until halftime, right? and then force the spies (masons) into a complete type of death arrangement. it's so convoluted that i can totally get down with this. the only issue i see is that if we get down to that kind of set up why would the witches kill any of the spies? we potentially end up using three Days getting rid of them. and while i don't know what the witches have in their arsenal i would imagine they would be sniping at non spies. so carp, that would be potentially six dead townies. can we afford that luxury? but it makes sense in an uber convoluted way that the witches will be voting to save townies and any potential town killer are killing town. heh heh. that makes me grin. seriously, it's just musings because i am still trying to wrap my head around the rules and roles.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 25, 2013 13:06:15 GMT -5
The Junior Witches complicate the matter. If they have not joined the Coven, then those Witches will be not be discovered by the Bishop. I'd like to confirm that this is indeed correct. It may surprise you all how difficult it is for the Bishop to actually go off. Keep in mind that the Bishop doesn't just have to survive until Halftime, he also has to survive through Halftime. When you have 7 Witch team members, all with unique abilities (especially ones with extra kills or information), it's hard to live that long as a top target. I've moderated or played in several dozens games with a Bishop, and have seen him go off maybe four times ever. And I recall one of those games, the Junior Witches still pulled out a Witch win. otay. color me confused. do the junior witches know who the elder witches are and vice versa? because if that is the case 7 v 17 seems unfair. and if three of them are undiscoverable this feels like gallipoli.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Apr 25, 2013 14:06:54 GMT -5
otay. color me confused. do the junior witches know who the elder witches are and vice versa? because if that is the case 7 v 17 seems unfair. and if three of them are undiscoverable this feels like gallipoli. I'm not the mod, but here's how I understand it. The Coven know each other, and they also know who the Junior Witches and Spies are but not which is which. The Junior Witches know each other, and they also know who the Coven and Spies are but not which is which. The Spies know each other, and know that the Coven and Junior Witches may mistake them for Witches. So they sort of know each other, but the Spies throw a wrench into the works because depending on how the Spies play, the Coven may screw up and kill Junior Witches thinking they're Spies.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 25, 2013 15:55:14 GMT -5
Actually, given the 50/50, it was kind of a null tell. And as others have said, that is less than we usually get from Pleo. [/quote] first, you are full of poo. pleo doesn't do anything in this game that is a "null tell" and the fact that he did not come out and claim niller townie on first post makes my hackles rise. now certainly i have been gone for a while and he may have changed his play style but the sumbitch is a slippery dude (in a nice way). and changes in play style are the first thing i look for. really, if meeko, for example, was playing and didn't post but once or twice a Day i'd be going what the heck with that? sorry folks, that's how i operate. second, the 50/50 was on is he telling the truth? well he basically has come out with a power claim of some sort which kind of backs up my point one. what's interesting is that he left a dangling participle, so to speak in referring to the role set and how their alignment could go either way. now i don't know which alignment he is but cripes he has, as usual painted a damn big target on hit back. third, ask opal. i won't vote for him on final count because of the second point. but the mealy mouthed bastard probably knows that.
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Post by peekercpa on Apr 25, 2013 16:05:39 GMT -5
otay. color me confused. do the junior witches know who the elder witches are and vice versa? because if that is the case 7 v 17 seems unfair. and if three of them are undiscoverable this feels like gallipoli. I'm not the mod, but here's how I understand it. The Coven know each other, and they also know who the Junior Witches and Spies are but not which is which. The Junior Witches know each other, and they also know who the Coven and Spies are but not which is which. The Spies know each other, and know that the Coven and Junior Witches may mistake them for Witches. So they sort of know each other, but the Spies throw a wrench into the works because depending on how the Spies play, the Coven may screw up and kill Junior Witches thinking they're Spies. this is an "uh fuck" we are screwed moment. really, i come back from an extended hiatus and am facing 7 v 17. shit folks we better be perfect on our lynches and have no vig mis fires. i've brought down a couple of 2 7 off suited pots in my life but not very fucking often.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 25, 2013 16:19:55 GMT -5
Considering we had 4 expansion packs to pick from, Pleo's post is missing a qualifier if he intended to indicate a particular expansion. The last time I saw the poll on which expansion to use, it had one vote on it for the 'Showdown/Halftime' expansion. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that that matches my role, and I believe we are playing with the Showdown cast of Character cards.
I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think anyone is vanilla, since all cards have some sort of power listed, and as the Mod has explained, most players have been randomly assigned a Character card, and the available Characters can be allotted to either faction.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 25, 2013 16:32:40 GMT -5
And I see that I basically just said the same thing that Pollux said a few posts back.
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Post by chocolatepi on Apr 25, 2013 17:13:31 GMT -5
I'm not the mod, but here's how I understand it. The Coven know each other, and they also know who the Junior Witches and Spies are but not which is which. The Junior Witches know each other, and they also know who the Coven and Spies are but not which is which. The Spies know each other, and know that the Coven and Junior Witches may mistake them for Witches. So they sort of know each other, but the Spies throw a wrench into the works because depending on how the Spies play, the Coven may screw up and kill Junior Witches thinking they're Spies. This is all correct. Each half of the Witches will attempt to gradually sort out who their allies are as the game progresses. This "split" enables us to have more players on the Witch side and the game still remain fair. A 7-vs-17 would be almost impossible for town in a standard mafia setup; it would take 203 vanilla Villagers to achieve a 50% win rate against 7 Witches!
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 25, 2013 19:11:27 GMT -5
Actually, given the 50/50, it was kind of a null tell. And as others have said, that is less than we usually get from Pleo. first, you are full of poo. pleo doesn't do anything in this game that is a "null tell" and the fact that he did not come out and claim niller townie on first post makes my hackles rise. now certainly i have been gone for a while and he may have changed his play style but the sumbitch is a slippery dude (in a nice way). and changes in play style are the first thing i look for. really, if meeko, for example, was playing and didn't post but once or twice a Day i'd be going what the heck with that? sorry folks, that's how i operate. second, the 50/50 was on is he telling the truth? well he basically has come out with a power claim of some sort which kind of backs up my point one. what's interesting is that he left a dangling participle, so to speak in referring to the role set and how their alignment could go either way. now i don't know which alignment he is but cripes he has, as usual painted a damn big target on hit back. third, ask opal. i won't vote for him on final count because of the second point. but the mealy mouthed bastard probably knows that.[/quote] And OK, I guess not completely a null tell, but a nullish tell. And, dude, Opal died about a month ago.
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Post by Mahaloth on Apr 25, 2013 19:12:14 GMT -5
Uh, that quote didn't work. New site is weird. The only thing I added was the response:
And OK, I guess not completely a null tell, but a nullish tell. And, dude, Opal died about a month ago."
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Post by Sai on Apr 25, 2013 19:16:03 GMT -5
Peeker's probably town, since his posts read as stream-of-consciousness. That said, one thing that's way wrong - second, the 50/50 was on is he telling the truth? well he basically has come out with a power claim of some sort which kind of backs up my point one. what's interesting is that he left a dangling participle, so to speak in referring to the role set and how their alignment could go either way. now i don't know which alignment he is but cripes he has, as usual painted a damn big target on hit back. I genuinely don't understand why you think he painted a target on himself. Everyone has a role, so his claiming one isn't a big deal. He just said his was from the expansion set and then you made a big deal out of it for no reason.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 25, 2013 19:31:29 GMT -5
Pleo has this metagame legacy for the past year(?) or so where he'll make a full claim out of the gate if he is vanilla, and says that he will always do so. So when he doesn't make a full claim out of the gate, it implies that he's not vanilla.
I believe that is the target that that peeker thinks Pleo may have painted, but it remains to be seen if peeker will acknowledge any of the evidence that there are no vanilla roles ergo the usual knee-jerk reaction to Pleo's Day 1 play doesn't really work.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 25, 2013 19:33:27 GMT -5
I also fully expect to have my two sentence attempt at paraphrasing Pleo's strategy to be found lacking in nuance and detail.
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Post by Sai on Apr 25, 2013 19:36:18 GMT -5
I also fully expect to have my two sentence attempt at paraphrasing Pleo's strategy to be found lacking in nuance and detail. No, I understood it, I just didn't see how it was relevant in a round with no vanilla roles.
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Post by sario on Apr 25, 2013 19:49:04 GMT -5
I also fully expect to have my two sentence attempt at paraphrasing Pleo's strategy to be found lacking in nuance and detail. No, I understood it, I just didn't see how it was relevant in a round with no vanilla roles. As I understand it, cookies is explaining Pleo's habit of claiming at the start of game to Peeker
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 25, 2013 19:54:12 GMT -5
Everyone's wrong! Mwuahaha! The follow-up comment was tongue and cheek assumption that Pleo would be the one to say that I've over-simplified why he does what he does.
I know that Peeker knows what and why Pleo says he does what he does. I just don't think peeker is yet grokking that this is a no-vanilla game. And I think he's doing so because many of us are conditioned to be good little townies and not show any tells as to whether we're vanilla or not. At least not without taking us out to a nice dinner first.
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