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Post by sinjin on Nov 15, 2007 12:20:06 GMT -5
remorseless harriden, shrew, bitch How horrific was the manderin used in the language filters? I have been wondering. You'll have to ask dotchan that one. I just went to the Firefly chinese site I posted at the beginning of the last game and looked for the phrase.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Nov 15, 2007 12:31:51 GMT -5
Starting early? that sounds cool. We want blud!
Or I risk a sudden onset of withdrawl symptoms.
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Parzival
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Let's all strive to do our best today![on:forgot to log out][of:forgot to log in]
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Post by Parzival on Nov 15, 2007 12:36:42 GMT -5
More opening text analysis: The description of the Nexus-9 seems to strongly imply a Godfather as well (leader of the replicants, and more capable of human emotion).
Also this :
It's likely that the Blade Runner is a combo detective/vig, making quite a power role (they can test before they kill).
I'm also wondering about who might run for Governor (in terms of roles). The scum probably don't want the limelight right now (aside from WIFOM), but may really want the position later. Power roles (like a cop) probably have some use for it in the early-middle game, when they have some information but don't want to claim early. It might make them a target from both sides though. Plain townies might want it just to keep it from being controlled by scum.
I'm partly inclined to random vote for Governor Day 1- time is short and I don't trust politicians anyway.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 15, 2007 12:46:49 GMT -5
I have not utilized the discussion of random votes as a scum tactic, but I have been a townie who has participated in such discussions, and the discussions of such discussions. We do have new people playing. I don't think it is realistic or wise to metagame as to any intentions as they relate to the "random" voting topic. If anyone is inclined to metagame on this matter, then you should consider my previous games as an indication that townies (both vanilla and power-roled) can and do participate in discussions on random voting. I also have not seen evidence of a compelling nature that any scum groups have profited much from "distracting" people with the topic. Well in Sekham the scum dominated and controlled the discussion and was doing a damn fine job. We probably would have won had it not been for Monkgate (which I still maintain would have worked if it had been implemented correctly) and Pygmy's slip. Cookies you and yours did the same thing in Firefly although I know it wasn't stated explicitly. Don't think of it as metagaming, because it isn't. It is behavioral analysis, which is what the game is about. If it makes it easier to accept, forget that I mentioned the random vs. non random debate specifically. I mentioned that one because it usually comes up early in the game, and we can't really afford to get distracted by non profitable debates like that. In both M2 and Firefly I watched the town get decimated in the early Days by allowing themselves to get sucked into lengthy discussions that were of no real value, e.g. random vs. non random voting. Nothing is black and white. I am not going to say that someone is scum just because they are engaging in that debate, but if they seem to be encouraging that debate (and there is a difference) or any other non profitable debate, I am going to wonder about them. The people we need to watch out for are not the ones with the loudest voices, they will eventually hang themselves with their own rope. We need to watch out for the people who are quietly distracting the town, people who are stoking the fires of arguments without being involved in them (seem Pygmy in almost every game he has played) people who get the town talking about non topics, people who are distracting the town. These are the below the radar people. Not people with low post counts, not lurkers, but people who post frequently enough to be noticed, but never talk about anything helpful. That being said, for the first 2 Days, I am only going to vote for the person with the lowest post count. Non contributing townies are almost (notice I said almost) as dangerous to the town as scum. At the end of Day 2 I will reevaluate my voting system. I would encourage others to contemplate my system, and join me in voting out the people who don't talk if they think it is a good idea. My feeling is that after 2 Days we will have a lot of information, and will also be able to start picking out the people who are only posting to keep their post count up so they don't get lynched. I have given this system a lot of thought and really think it will solve a lot of early problems forthe town. But this is the last time I will bring it up. If you don't want to join me, that is ok too. But I want how and why I am voting to be clearly understood. Town needs to start working on sharing helpful information. Sorry, for posting all these long thesis posts. But I am expecting to get killed very quickly (I always seem to when I am not scum) and I want to point out some of the things I have observed while moding M2 and Firefly.
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Post by episodeofblonde on Nov 15, 2007 12:49:28 GMT -5
Speaking as a newcomer, please don't let's waste time on the whole random voting thing. From read previous games I just don't think it helped and it allowed Day 1 to become so full of 'fluff' as to be useless for analysis on later days.
I am curious how the Guv'nor mechanic will work out. Due to numbers, I see it, at least initially, being beneficial to the town.
Surely a combo vig/cop, Parzival, would be a way too powerful role for one person. But speculating about power roles is just a bad idea.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 15, 2007 12:50:16 GMT -5
From what I said in a pre-game thread:
My assessment: the Governor is fundamentally an anti-Colony mechanic.
The Colony must elect a Governor in order to lynch. (I was considering advocating not electing a Governor until I read that.) So the Scum could potentially stall us by preventing an election (although, to truly block the Colony, they'd need to be a majority of the players).
At the beginning, the alignment of the Governor doesn't matter that much. He'll be accountable for any tie-breaks or no lynches. However, at the end game, his alignment is critical. A Scummy Governor changes the Scum's victory condition from strictly greater than half the players to greater or equal. That difference of one player is huge.
This will lead to WIFOM suspicions when a Governor is surviving in office. Scum will want to put one of their own in the office, since it reduces their win condition by one player. The only way to replace a Governor is via death. Thus, as the game draws toward the end, any player in the Governor position who isn't killed is likely to be Scum!
The Colony can try to extract alignment information from the survival (or not) of the Governor, but it'll be to the Scum's advantage.
Because we need the Governor to lynch, if he is Day-killed after the election period and before the lynch, it screws the Colony out of lynching someone. Unless there's a secret mechanic that gets us out of that predicament.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 15, 2007 12:57:20 GMT -5
One more post and then I will shut up for a while. This is how I think I am going to post my "what we know" lists. [/b][/u] [li]Color commentary counts. [/li][li]At least 2 sides, colonists and replicants [/li][li]It was important to have exactly 25 players at the start of the game. [/li][li]We must elect a Governor on any Day that starts without one. [/li][li]There is a group of mason type players [/li][li]Above all, this is still just mafia. Everything else is here to confuse (entertain) us. What we suspect (very probable):[/li][li]A Blade Runner is in the game. Probably a cop, maybe a vig. MAYBE a cop vig combo. (I think that the combo is least likely because that is an insanely powerful role, but the color would indicate otherwise) [/li][li]4-6 mafia members. Some with power roles. I think 5 members total is most likely. [/li][li]Probably third faction with a separate win condition from Colonists/replicants [/li][li]Day killer of some sort. Possibly a Crazy Towie. [/li][/ul] Let me know what y'all think.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 15, 2007 13:12:29 GMT -5
About scum-finding strategy, something I've noticed is the tendency of some to go over players' posts with a fine-toothed comb looking for logic errors or slip-ups. While that may seem like a good technique, it has an inherent bias against prolific and confrontational players, simply because they put out a large volume of posts or antagonize others. A player's posting style doesn't necessarily reveal the player's alignment. Big rows tend to Town vs Town. That said, a pattern of slip-ups would be something to bring up. Something else to keep in mind: don't depend on breadcrumbs. If they're hard to find, the Colony won't reliably follow them. If they're easy to find, the Replicants will get your number before the Colony does. Investigative roles should be prepared to reveal information in the mid-game, even if they're not under imminent threat. Hockey Monkey's performance in Conspiracy is a perfect example. A few key pieces of information can help the Colony a lot. Of course, don't all role claim at once. I think I like NAF's voting proposal. I don't know if I will follow it precisely (choosing the lowest post count is too easy to manipulate), but I will certainly be choosing from among the lowest.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 15, 2007 13:15:41 GMT -5
MOD NOTE:
In case anyone is wondering, I am still waiting on role confirmation from four players - atarus, Blaster Master, HazelnutCoffee, and zuma. If you're one of those people, please confirm at your convenience. We'll start Day One as soon as you do.
Thanks! Please continue your regularly scheduled conversation.
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Post by sinjin on Nov 15, 2007 13:18:19 GMT -5
Can anybody give a link to a game that had a Governor in it so I can see how it works in play? Also, why would anybody want to be Governor It seems like as thankless a job as Department Chair or Telemarketeer. I know I'm missing something here.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 15, 2007 13:20:37 GMT -5
Oh! sinjin for Governor! The reluctant ones are the best.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Nov 15, 2007 13:27:47 GMT -5
<snip> Because we need the Governor to lynch, if he is Day-killed after the election period and before the lynch, it screws the Colony out of lynching someone. Unless there's a secret mechanic that gets us out of that predicament. This is not how I understood it. "If there is no sitting Governor at any time (including at the beginning of Day One), the Day is extended by 24 real-time hours to allow for one to be elected." So, if the Governor is Day killed, we get an extra 24 hours to elect one, and we don't lose a lynch.
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Nov 15, 2007 13:39:20 GMT -5
Can anybody give a link to a game that had a Governor in it so I can see how it works in play? Also, why would anybody want to be Governor It seems like as thankless a job as Department Chair or Telemarketeer. I know I'm missing something here. The closest thing I can find over in Mafiascum is Kingmaker. * Consulmaker* Kingmaker II
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Nov 15, 2007 13:42:31 GMT -5
Can anybody give a link to a game that had a Governor in it so I can see how it works in play? Also, why would anybody want to be Governor It seems like as thankless a job as Department Chair or Telemarketeer. I know I'm missing something here. There's no reason whatsoever to be governor: if you're a townie, you're essentially putting a gigantic bull's eye on your chest for the mafia to night-kill you (as they'll want to eventually replace you). If you're mafia, eventually the town will raise askance as to why you're not being killed. And, of course, there's the whole logical back and forth that that will entail, with the mafia perhaps letting a citizen hold the governorship in order to induce a town-lynch. On the other hand, Governor lets an otherwise vanilla townie have something to do in the game other than toss his votes around willy-nilly.
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Hockey Monkey!
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This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Nov 15, 2007 13:42:48 GMT -5
Hey all! Let's rock and roll! I'm good with starting early. Game on!
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 15, 2007 13:44:39 GMT -5
From the Basic Rules: The Day's Lynch will not occur without an elected Governor.
I take that to mean the Governor must be alive in order for a lynch to take place.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Nov 15, 2007 13:48:42 GMT -5
From the Basic Rules: The Day's Lynch will not occur without an elected Governor.I take that to mean the Governor must be alive in order for a lynch to take place. Right. And if there's not one, we get a 24 hour extension to elect one. I'd rather not waste the extra time we've been given arguing about it, though, so: story, can we get a clarification on this one?
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Post by sinjin on Nov 15, 2007 13:55:12 GMT -5
Pleonast: And thanks dot. Off to plow thru kingmaker.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 15, 2007 13:59:08 GMT -5
I think I like NAF's voting proposal. I don't know if I will follow it precisely (choosing the lowest post count is too easy to manipulate), but I will certainly be choosing from among the lowest. I think that the only way for it to be effective is to eliminate opinion or subjectivity. How about this? Vote for the person with the lowest post count at aproximatly 24 hours before the deadline. (that way I am not constantly changing my vote. I vote once 24 hours or so before the deadline and that is it.)
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 15, 2007 14:01:08 GMT -5
From the Basic Rules: The Day's Lynch will not occur without an elected Governor.I take that to mean the Governor must be alive in order for a lynch to take place. Right. And if there's not one, we get a 24 hour extension to elect one. I'd rather not waste the extra time we've been given arguing about it, though, so: story, can we get a clarification on this one?If the Colony finds itself without a Governor at any time during the Day (ie, after Dawn but before a completed lynch or the deadline), the Day will be extended by 24 hours to allow for the election of a new Governor.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 15, 2007 14:01:25 GMT -5
...in the event of a tie I will random.org in none of those players have votes, or will vote for the player tied player with the most current votes.
I think it will work.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 15, 2007 14:07:53 GMT -5
FWIW, my interpretation is in line with Santo Rugger's...
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 15, 2007 14:09:19 GMT -5
Aaaaaand that was way late upon lack of preview.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 15, 2007 14:18:38 GMT -5
NAF, your system is still somewhat subject to manipulation--scum can pad their post count and force some unlucky Colonist offsides. I'm a little worried, just because I'll miss a good portion of next week due to Thanksgiving. I don't want to be that unlucky Colonist. Question to storyteller: what's the game schedule for next week?I'll be giving myself the flexibility to decide among the lowest posters. And, yes, that means it's a subjective decision. But that's a good thing. Having a clear-cut rule describing how you will vote is abdicating your responsibility as a Colonist to choose judiciously. How can us other Colonists discern your alignment when you're voting robotically? You can defend yourself by saying my algorithm made me do it. So, at least for me, anyone following a purely mechanical rule to decide their vote is slightly suspicious.
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Post by Drain Bead on Nov 15, 2007 14:27:59 GMT -5
Not to mention that quantity does not necessarily mean quality. People can pad their post counts with one-liners and throwaway logic, while those who spend a lot of time on one long post every now and then would get a vote under that system, even though they put a similar amount of effort into fewer posts. Hell, it's a general scum tactic to have at least one member of the group contributing a lot of noise to the game. I think that proposal ends up screwing posters who tend to take their time and deliberate more.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 15, 2007 14:30:27 GMT -5
NAF, your system is still somewhat subject to manipulation--scum can pad their post count and force some unlucky Colonist offsides. I see your point. But this is why it is only for the first two Day's where the point of the lynch is to gather information more then it is to catch scum (catching scum is a good side benefit, but unlikely). Also, after two Days we will be able to see who has been padding their posts. Post padding is a major scum tell. Those people will then rise to the top of the suspicion list. But I won't be following a hard and fast rule anymore. IF someone comes out as patently obvious scum (if they post to the wrong board or something), I will rethink. I am not going to let the rule bind me, and I plan on still making cases angainst and FOSing people. You will know where I stand.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 15, 2007 14:34:44 GMT -5
I think that proposal ends up screwing posters who tend to take their time and deliberate more. Bah, I need to prieview more. Find me one time when a townie who is thoughtful and posted anylitical posts was also the lowest poster in the first two Days and I will conceed this point and revise my system.
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Post by CatInASuit on Nov 15, 2007 14:50:59 GMT -5
I think that proposal ends up screwing posters who tend to take their time and deliberate more. Bah, I need to prieview more. Find me one time when a townie who is thoughtful and posted anylitical posts was also the lowest poster in the first two Days and I will conceed this point and revise my system. You certainly do need to "preview" more. As for voting for the lowest lurker. In general the first few tend to be town anyway, so effectively you are setting up a method that for the first few days you will try to lynch a townie. You will also begin to get people just posting to avoid being the person you vote for leading to a lot of fluff which makes it much harder for us to sift through and find the various tells we are trying to look for.
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Post by Pleonast on Nov 15, 2007 15:00:01 GMT -5
I see your point. But this is why it is only for the first two Day's where the point of the lynch is to gather information more then it is to catch scum (catching scum is a good side benefit, but unlikely). But how will the rest of us get information about you? There's three ways in general to get information. 1) Posts 2) Votes 3) Power roles You're cutting off the Colony from getting information about you from your votes. That's my main objection to it. What I'm thinking about doing is taking maybe the bottom half-dozen posters and choosing from among them. I'll read their posts and make a decision. It's not much better than picking someone completely at random. But it does have the side effect of encouraging more participation. And I'll be accountable for my vote, since it was my subjective choice. On preview: Preview is lobotomized! It doesn't list recent posts; it lists posts from the beginning of the thread (cutting off around 10). So I can't see if anyone has recently replied while I was typing. Can this be fixed?
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Nov 15, 2007 15:04:28 GMT -5
I don't know about "lowest poster" but look at my performances. I don't post a great deal - I'm often thought of as on the edge of lurking.
In five games I have been scum once.
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